Dark Angel

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Posts posted by Dark Angel

  1.      The excavations of the South end and middle weren’t to the same depth as the North end as they were excavating into a hill.

         The footbridge from the main concourse to the platforms would have been around 20/22 feet from rail level. This would have exited          at the road level of the re-routed Glasshouse Street.

          St Anne’s Street has already been pointed out, but far right, the large building with what looks like twin towers is a maltings building on what used to be Milk Street.


  2.      In reply to Beekay. The word week probably stems from weke which was a dweller/worker on a dairy farm. The word day probably stems from the word daege/daye which was feminine and referred to a dairy maid/servant. 
            As regards the cross, the last one was removed and the stone sold around 1804/5. This had supposedly been erected in the early 18th century and was either a new cross or a rebuild of an existing one. The previous one had been built or rebuild of an existing one in the early 16th century. This also appears to have replaced an earlier cross. 
            The area has been inhabited for millennia. Two hundred years before Bill the Bastard built his wooden hut on the other high ground, the Vikings were here, along with Anglo-Saxons and before them the Britons.

            Many years ago, I was led to believe that Edward I had erected the original cross, but have yet to come across any corroborating evidence. I think the original one was likely to have been a Celtic one.

            The whole area is steeped in history and bloodletting, including Robin Hood being imprisoned in a bottle shaped cave. Whether Robin Hood existed or not, the cave exists.

            A story exists of some builders digging footings for some new houses on Week Day Cross, when they entered an enormous subterranean cavern, which had ornamented pillars. Would imagine a lot of destruction has taken place over the years.

           There are also many stories of prisoners being held captive in many of these caves.

  3.        Considering Nottingham had been hit with cholera, I am amazed people were allowed to build new houses without decent sanitation.

           In some cases, three or four houses would share the same waste soil depositories. ( waste soil was how they spoke of it in those times.)

           Within five years of being built two houses on Curzon Street were found to be a health risk. In those days they must have had serious issues to be highlighted in this way. Yet still they continued building houses in the same manner.

           Sorry, going off topic.

  4.     Sadly, a lot of the housing in Netherfield left a lot to be desired.

       The housing was built ad hoc by various builders, not really giving any thought to the people having to live in them.

       Being in the Trent Valley and having two engine sheds and a large marshalling yard, the atmosphere wouldn't have been conducive to good health, particularly in later life.

       Your mum saw the writing on the wall, an indoor bathroom, must have been akin to winning the pools.


      Returning to Loppy's comment about shunters, they would have worked in thick fog amongst other weathers.

  5.       Have been doing some ferreting around, have now found two pictures of what I believe to be William Brierley's cottage. It is certainly not contemporary with any other buildings in Netherfield. This cottage was unique. A massive shame it got demolished to make way for the bank buildings. Cliff Ton has produced a map on another thread which sadly doesn't show this building, but shows another on what is now Garnett Street. I seem to end up with more questions when ever I think I've answered one. Could these buildings, (which I think still exist) have been used for residential or agricultural use?

         Am quietly confident that William Brierley's cottage is the one that stood on the corner of Meadow/Victoria Road.



  6.         So long as you managed to dodge the torpedoes and didn't hook a mine.

            A shunter was an under rated job, shifts, out in all weathers, on the plus side, they didn't need gyms! 

            Pay not very good either, although there were enhancements like free travel, pensions, tended to be looked after if you got sick. ie if someone had to take a lower paid job through health reasons they retained their rate of pay.

             Just realised have gone off topic!


    • Like 1
  7.        Cliff Ton:- what date is your map at the start of this thread?

           It's showing two farms and another building closer to where the Midland Railway would be built.

           If that is Brierley's cottage, then your map is locating it on what would later be Garnett Street, not where I've always thought it to be: junction of Meadow/Victoria Roads. 

           The 1841 census lists Brierley's cottage in Netherfield but not the farms. Looking at their locations it's feasible one would be on Colwicks census return and the other on Stoke Bardolphs return.

           It does look from your map that the southern section comes under Colwick Parish.

            The farm on the 1851 census Low Field Farm doesn't appear to have been built. Assuming this farm changed its name to Carlton Fields at some later date, before being eliminated by the railway sometime around late 1880's, as the signal box in the middle of the sidings took its name from this house. Unless Low Field Farm has switched districts for the later census?


  8.         Whenever I approached the foot bridge, my mind would switch into adventure mode. The footpaths, bridges, nooks and crannies all fascinated me. Never ventured onto the railway itself. Didn't need to, plenty of other distractions. Wildlife plentiful where ever your gaze fell. To me, crossing that bridge was my own personal wonderland.

           I remember the narrow gauge railway, the little diesel zipping back and forth with its little hoppers. The tunnel it went through was originally built to accommodate water drainage from the Hesgang Pastures. The next tunnel up was built for the same reason.

          The people farming here had built drainage ditches and these tunnels prevented flooding from affecting the railway track. The narrow gauge railway didn't appear until after WW2.

           I have been through this tunnel, the size of the rats fascinated me as they would give you a look of disdain, before scurrying off. I was somewhat older when I did this.

         Cannot remember finding any bomb parts.

        Looking back, I wonder how I managed to stay on this physical plane for so long. Expect there are a few others on here reflecting similar thoughts.

         Despite various hardships along the way, am so glad I lived through the timescale I have. Hope I'm wrong, but I worry about the young people growing up in today's messed up society. My apologies, I digress.



    • Like 1
  9.       Think I've missed the boat with this one, however, the row of terraced houses with a shop on the corner with Morris Street, along with the row of houses on Morris Street were demolished to make way for the co op supermarket and car park. The shop initially being run by Miss Maggie Wheldon as a grocers. Think I only remember it as a sweet shop, although it could also have been a grocers. Someone on here, somewhere in the system has put a photograph showing the toll gate on Meadow Road with this row of houses in the background.

         Strangely, I remember them being there but not their demolition, neither do I remember the building of the co op.

         I have no recollection of the demolition of wash tub row, Devonshire Cottages, Ethel Grove or Freemans Terrace ( Carlton). Throw in the row of houses on Curzon Street that became flats. 

         The railway house referred to on Meadow Road was right at the end on the right hand side before the railway line. Have a feeling that's no longer there either.

         Obviously a period in my life where I had returned to my own planet!

         I also don't remember the doctors surgery being demolished either!

         The strange shop opposite with the tower I remember as a co op haberdashery. The proper wooden cabinets of cotton reels and silks fascinated me due to the variety of colours, more colours than could be imagined by a little boy.

         Albert Street antiques centre had one for sale a few months back, didn't stay in the shop very long.

  10.         My apologies for the ambiguity in my previous post. Could have been worded better, sometimes my brain and typing finger whilst lickety splitting the same slope, don't necessarily do it at the same time.

            I worry that I tend to bang on a bit, leading to my post sometimes not appearing on paper the same as my thought process.

           You are correct, Netherfield as a town didn't exist until after the railways came. The ambiguity arised as I put old maps and street names in the same sentance: up until WW1, a lot of adverts for housing rental gave the street names in Colwick and not Netherfield.

          Prior to enclosure, ownership seemed messy, Gedling seemed to claim the northern part and Colwick the southern part known as the Hesgang Pastures. (Some old maps show this part as belonging to Radcliffe, due to a change in the course of the river no doubt).

         The Earl of Chesterfield and Charles Pierrepont nawing away at each other over ownership until the enclosure act sorted out their disputes, (more or less).

         Allegedly, the first house built in Netherfield was a cottage built by William  Brierley on the corner of Victoria Road and Meadow Road, where the bank buildings now stand. However, there were also two farms: one in the Hesgang Pastures and one in the nether field, both must have been fairly substantial as they both had servants and farm hands living on the premises. One was known as Netherfield Farm. (Probably originally the Nether Field Farm.) There was also a person named Greaves who was extracting gravel.

         These farms disappeared when the railways arrived, with the landscape altering completely, including the old bridle way from Stoke Bardolph to Colwick. The railways to some degree kept a pathway through the sidings: at the end of Netherfield Lane a footpath carried on, over a footbridge whilst the old LNWR sheds were in use, continuing until another path joined from Colwick East signal box where there still is I believe an unmanned crossing to Colwick Estates, the western part of the old bridle way, continuing a bit further and the path zips left and under the sidings, each of the bridges had to be a height so a man on horseback could ride beneath them. (Never tried it myself.) finally emerging east of the sidings to continue to Stoke Bardolph. This part got altered later with gravel extraction.

          There must have been legal implications for this pathway to remain as it must have cost a fair bit to build three/four bridges to allow this to happen, not forgetting the footbridge.

         Once again I have waffled on away from the original question.

         Most people on here won't have a clue about any of this.

        Carlton didn't seem to come into the equation until the expansion of Nottingham moved east. 

    • Like 2
  11.          The toll gate at Netherfield was a contentious issue for many years. Stemming from the enclosure act the road now designated Meadow Road should have been a public carriage way to the boundary with Colwick Estates owned at the time by the Musters family.

    However, the residents of Colwick Hall decided to charge people for right of way over their land. They erected the gate in the position photographed, unfortunately it was erected in the wrong place. It should have been erected just past where Meadow Road turns into Charworth Road. Originally, the area was known as Gedling/Colwick/Stoke Bardolph. This may have been part of the problem of the original siting. Why the Earl of Carnarvon didn't tap Lord Musters on the shoulder and ask him what he was playing at. Technically, people were paying the Musters family to travel over Carnarvon's land. 

           Old maps show Netherfield as part of Colwick or Gedling, in fact there are many references to streets in Netherfield being listed as Colwick.

          Somewhere in the system, Netherfield comes under the influence of Carlton. It is this council that eventually takes ownership of this stretch of road having paid compensation in 1905, along with Nottingham Corporation and Basford RDC.

         By this time, a Colonal Davies owned Colwick Hall. Not a bad little earner.

        As an aside, this boundary confusion may account for the railway sidings being called Colwick and not Netherfield. The boundary actually ran to the East of the railway line so technically the railway station was erected in Colwick. Many people think the railway as the boundary.

       Those who are familiar with the area will know of the cinder path running along side the railway, that is the boundary.

       Actually, the Earl of Carnarvon only came to own the land through his wife's inheritance, really it should have been the Earl of Chesterfield who should have been asking the question earlier.

         As the gate was supposedly erected around 1800, there must have been a lot of chuntering over the years.

    • Like 1
  12.      AfferGorritt:- will you be posting your memoirs? (Sorry, research.)


         I refrained from mentioning the Edgar Alan Poe version.

         His wife and mother-in-law spent time and money trying to locate what happened to him. 


         Apart from two versions of basically the same story:- he escaped the battle on horseback across the River Trent. One tale has him reaching the opposite bank and riding away. The other has his horse stumbling to climb out of the water with Lovell falling into the water.


         There is an account of him routing some Lancastrians on the 10th June whilst leading some cavalry.


        As you rightly point out. It seems inconceivable if he's alive he doesn't resurface 10 years later when Perkin Warbeck appears.



  13.       Phew! That was close! Internet went down just after I had posted!


          There is certainly no mention of him after the battle.

          I have an open mind on Lovell.

          Escaping the battle and dying of his wounds is indeed credible.

          I recollect reading somewhere of him drowning, if he was wounded and weak it's feasible, considering the clothing he would have been wearing.

         However, there is also a document that states he was given safe passage through Scotland before going abroad. This could be misinformation as this may be the group that had been giving Northumberland the runaround. Am sure this wasn't Lovell.

         Many were probably put to the sword after the battle, but again, no mention of Lovell. 

         Sometimes I wonder if he was actually there.


        A mystery. Where's Poirot?


         Good reason for Henry executing him. Though he probably wouldn't need a reason.

         Warbeck was certainly treated differently to  Simnal.


         The priest involved in the first revolt was gaoled, never to be seen again.

         In those days being incarcerated rarely ended well.


         Yes, Simnal did end up as head falconer.

  14. AfferGorritt:-     I acquiesce to your request. You will probably need to sit down with a triple malt.


                            16th June 1487, was the anniversary of a battle fought in Nottinghamshire which allegedly has the highest mortality of any battle fought on home soil.

                            6000/7000 men are alleged to have been killed in a battle lasting just under 3 hours. Giving a statistic of between 33 & 39 men dying every minute!

                             It entered the history books as The Battle of East Stoke. However, I believe it took place closer to Syerston. Smaller skirmishes taking place around the perimeters. The O. S. Map shows the battle having taken place south east of East Stoke.

                            This insurrection began when a priest, whose name eludes me at the moment, having a young man under his tutelage: Lambert Simnal. This priest thought this young man bore a close resemblance to Edward, Earl of Warwick, the eldest of the princes incarcerated in the Tower of London. Having taught him Royal protocol he took him to the Earl of Lincoln, whether the Earl of Lincoln believed this story is not known, however he recognised an opportunity to possibly topple Henry VII.

                           The Earl of Lincoln amassed an army of approximately 8000 men. Of these, 2000 were German /Swiss mercenaries; well armed and well equipped. These men knew what they were about and would not have come cheap. Amongst his army were 4500 Irish mercenaries. These resembled a type of light infantry, hit and run fighters, not known for prolonged hand to hand combat. These men were poorly armed and poorly equipped. Whether the Earl of Lincoln had been looking for more support from closer to home, he doesn't appear to have received very much.

                          Landing in Lancashire from Ireland, they made their way into Yorkshire. The Earl of Lincoln had information the Earl of Northumberland was venturing south with an army to join up with Henry VII. He despatched some men north to detract the Earl of Northumberland from his journey by carrying out skirmishes before heading north with the Earl of Northumberland in pursuit.

                          More of the Earl of Lincoln's cavalry were engaged in skirmishes over three or four days though Sherwood Forest, before following some men loyal to the King to Nottingham.

                         Meanwhile, the Earl of Lincoln had crossed the River Trent at Fiskerton. By this time, Henry VII had arrived in Nottingham with around 12000 men. He was joined by a contingent from Wales of approximately 3000 men.

                         It is quite likely Henry knew what his opposition were going to do before the Earl of Lincoln did. He was able to outmanoeuvre his opponents by subterfuge and propaganda. Possibly even having someone in the Earl of Lincoln's army.

                        Before leaving Nottingham, Henry had hung several spies, was this the fate of some of those having chased the men loyal to the King to Nottingham?

                        Therefore, on paper, there could have been the possibility of 23000 men taking part in this battle. This would not be the case. The Earl of Lincoln had despatched some of his men north, playing chase me, chase me with the Earl of Northumberland. A unit of cavalry hadn't returned from Nottingham, along with those killed or wounded during several days of skirmishes reduced his ranks a little.

                       Where were the Earl of Lincoln's pickets?

                       There was talk of many of his men having embibed the night before, being in no it state to fight, it is even alleged that some even missed the battle completely through intoxication. Is this fact? Or a scribe of Henry's being economical with the truth?

                       Whatever the truth, it appears King Henry's Vanguard with the Earl of Oxford at their head, caught them napping, or at least ill prepared. Whilst King Henry rode with his army, he was happy to let his generals sort out battle plans and formations.

                       On the morning of the 16th June, (being a Saturday, King Henry believed Saturday's were his lucky days,) shortly before the ninth hour, the Earl of Oxford came across some of Lincoln's men on the brow of a hill. This vanguard quite likely consisted of around 4000 men. However, he had archers.

                      I think the reason he caught the Earl of Lincoln's men off guard is due to him arriving having travelled via Shelford, East Bridgeford and Kneeton. The Earl of Oxford wouldn't have used the old Fosse Way as he would have considered an ambush to take place. This is quite likely Lincoln's objective considering the calibre of the majority of his army.

                     Historians say that Lincoln was looking for battle. I'd be very surprised with this contingent of men, knowing his men to be inferior to the Kings Vanguard an ambush would have been his best option. He may even have taken the Earl of Oxford prisoner to be used as ransom.

                    The Earl of Oxford ordered his archers to set about firing on these men on the brow of the hill. However, instead of retreating, the buggers attacked. Probably initially catching the Earl of Oxford off guard as at first they struggled to suppress the attack. Eventually, the Kings men began to gain momentum and take advantage, forcing Lincoln's men back. The German/Swiss mercenaries stood their ground and fought to the last man. The Irish tried to retreat, getting slaughtered for their pains. They were forced back into a ravine, now unless this word meant something different in those days, the only possible place this could be is where the weirs are. A report from the time states that many died at their own hands whilst clambering down the ravine to escape. Some drowning in the river Trent.

                 To me, it appears the main battle took place around the northern edge of Syerston airfield. Henry placed his Standard at the point of initial contact on the brow of the hill. In the vicinity of his Standard, an observer remarked at the time about bodies laying like dead hedgehogs. Such had been the ferocity of the arrow bombardment.

                By mid-day, this stretch of English countryside resembled a vision of hell. Of the death toll, over 4000 came from the ranks of the Earl of Lincoln, including his own. Also dead were the leaders of both sets of mercenaries.

               A small number were rounded up afterwards, having escaped from the garden of Hades. The Irish and English were given the dangle dance, a handful of Germans were stripped of their weapons and chattels and released.

              If you peruse the map DavidW posted, you get an idea of the butchers yard between Syerston and the weir.


            Think I now need a malt and a lie down!