Lost Railways of Nottinghamshire

[jimmy87notts 22]

Really must recommend this book for us railway enthusiasts on here. It even says the the Great Central Railway originally wanted Nottingham Victoria station to be built where the royal center now stands across a viaduct that would of gone across the city. Very much like Sheffield Victoria. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Railways-Nottinghamshire-Geoffrey-Kingscott/dp/1853068845

[ravintrainman 10]

Really must recommend this book for us railway enthusiasts on here. It even says the the Great Central Railway originally wanted Nottingham Victoria station to be built where the royal center now stands across a viaduct that would of gone across the city. Very much like Sheffield Victoria. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Railways-Nottinghamshire-Geoffrey-Kingscott/dp/1853068845

There are a good many glaring errors and mistakes in that book, like mixing up the Great Northern, Great Central and Midland Railways and their routes. I've not read the whole book but having picked up on several errors without looking hard I wouldn't even bother reading the rest.

What height would a viaduct have to be to allow even a ground level station at the Royal Centre, given that the ground drops away quite a bit to market Square to the south and also to the bottom of Mansfield Road to the north. There would have to be either a very steep incline from the meadows area to get onto a viaduct and then why?? Bearing in mind that that the GC line was already on a viaduct to get it the level of the actaul site of Victoria Station. The Royal Centre is already a good bit higher stil!!

If that's quoted from that book I wonder if the author has even thought about the lie of the land the line passed through? Railways take the easiest practical route to get them to where they are going, viaducts, embankments, tunnels, etc cost a lot of money to build. They're done from need not vanity. Inclines are an operating hindrance, in the days of steam especially so. Even now the big well known 'hills' can be a major obstacle to be overcome. Some freight trains still have to be banked (assisted) by another loco up the Lickey Incline to the south of Birmingham. In steam days there could be up to FOUR engines helping one train up the incline.

There are many much better and accurate books out there, the problem is that often poorly researched and written books are accepted as fact. Then in the future what is presented is fact is actually nothing of the kind. I would say don't waste your money!

[Merthyr Imp 729]

Really must recommend this book for us railway enthusiasts on here. It even says the the Great Central Railway originally wanted Nottingham Victoria station to be built where the royal center now stands across a viaduct that would of gone across the city. Very much like Sheffield Victoria. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Railways-Nottinghamshire-Geoffrey-Kingscott/dp/1853068845

I've skimmed through the book and not been able to find that reference - can you say what page it's on, or at least which chapter?

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

I have a map of a proposed "Central" station. dated 1881 in a book Rail centres vol 18(page 45) it ran East /West and would have run along Parliament Street (Market Street to Heathcote street)

Publish by Book Law.

[Merthyr Imp 729]

Bubblewrap is right. Although unable to find anything in a quick look through the book jimmy87notts mention, it rang a vague bell with me, and I found it in 'Rail Centres; Nottingham' by Michael A. Vanns, published by Ian Allan in 1993. It's apparently still available on Amazon:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rail-Centres-Nottingham-Michael-Vanns/dp/0711021708/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1365065537&sr=1-4&keywords=Michael+Vanns

I think Bubblewrap has a later edition. In mine this map is also, as he says, on page 45:

The accompanying text is:-

'During the 1880s, Nottingham Corporation was very keen to improve the town's main railway facilities particularly for passengers, councillors feeling they were no longer appropriate for a thriving town like Nottingham...So, in October 1881, the General Purposes Committee of the Corporation resolved: 'That...it is desirable that, in the interests of the town, there should be a joint Central Railway Station, and that it is the duty of the Council to facilitate any proceedings which may be taken for the purposes of establishing such station.'

'A memorial was sent to the Midland Railway, Great Northern and London North Western including a plan drawn up in September by the County Surveyor, Edward Parry, and his assistant, J. Greenhalgh Walker, indicating a 10-acre site designated a few hundred yards north of the Market Place. Part of this area had already been declared unhealthy by the Borough Medical Officer and, therefore, construction of any new station would also facilitate slum clearance. Lower Parliament Street and a section of Upper Parliament Street would be realigned, the railway running due west to east with the station lying between the Theatre Royal and Cranbrook Street (then named Coalpit Lane). Connecting lines were proposed from the Midland Railway's Trent bridge in Eastcroft due north on a viaduct over the Midland Railway and Great Northern, through a tunnel under Sneinton Hermitage to join a new branch coming in from the east through a tunnel off the Great Northern's Grantham line and the Midland's Lincoln line. Between there and the new station the line would run on a viaduct crossing Manvers Street and Southwell Road amongst others. Exiting from the station to the west, a new line would tunnel under Wollaton Street to join the Midland at Radford Junction, whilst another branch also in a tunnel would pass under the northeast corner of the genewral cemetery, under the Forest Recreation Ground where a station for Hyson Green and the Race Course was proposed, before running due north to join the Great Northern's Leen Valley line half a mile south of the future site of its Bulwell Forest station.

'This linking together of all the major routes approaching Nottingham was a sensible and carefully considered project and, given sufficient goodwill and support from all the railway companies concerned, would undoubtedly have benefited the town. Unfortunately competition and not co-operation was the order of the day.

'Like all unrealised projects it seems fanciful now, but there can be little doubt that as Victoria station was eventually built only a few hundred yards from this proposed site, although on a north-south axis, these Corporation plans must have encouraged the Manchester, Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway [later Great Central] in its projected London Extension through the heart of Nottingham and also influenced the location of its station. Perhaps, without Corporation pressure for a central station, the MS & L might have been persuaded to construct a more useful interchange station where its new line crossed the Midland station?'

Fascinating to think about! Perhaps, if built, it would have been something like New Street station in Birmingham.

[Cliff Ton 10,458]

You just beat me; I was about to post the same map!

What height would a viaduct have to be to allow even a ground level station at the Royal Centre, given that the ground drops away quite a bit to market Square to the south and also to the bottom of Mansfield Road to the north. There would have to be either a very steep incline from the meadows area to get onto a viaduct and then why?? Bearing in mind that that the GC line was already on a viaduct to get it the level of the actaul site of Victoria Station. The Royal Centre is already a good bit higher stil!!

If that's quoted from that book I wonder if the author has even thought about the lie of the land the line passed through? Railways take the easiest practical route to get them to where they are going, viaducts, embankments, tunnels, etc cost a lot of money to build.

Note that the plan was drawn up in 1881, years before the Great Central had been thought of. The GC comes in from the south on a collection of bridges, viaducts and embankments before reaching the tunnels. This proposed line and station would merely be an alternative version of that, and I don't see that the engineering problems would have been too difficult for the victorian brains of the time.

[notty ash 370]

If you look at the path of the Great Central line between Carrington and Wilford, it does seem to veer quite a way east of what would have been the direct route. The Theatre Royal site, or maybe the next block west, would have been more direct. Maybe the Council did influence the site of Victoria station, which gave a far less obtrusive route through the city centre.

Looking at the whole route from Annesley to Ruddington, it showed a willingness to use a succession of expensive engineering solutions to overcome the obstacles.

[BulwellBrian 107]

I am sure that Watkin, chaiman of the Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire Railway (later the Great Central Railway) would have intentions for the London extension in 1881. He was also chairman of the Metropolitan Railway, the London Chatham & Dover Railway and the Channel Tunnel Compny. He had big ideas.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

One small point the Charlotte Street/Mount East Street area in the 1890s was supposed to be the worst "slum area" in the town/city & the council wanted "rid"of it so the building of the GCR/GNR station saved them a problem.

It is interesting to see some of what was taken out to build Victoria station

I have some large scale maps (not all of the route) covering Basford to Wilford dated 1881.

Over TWENTY public houses were demolished for the building of the Victoria station.

[BulwellBrian 107]

I was wondering where the rock that came out of the Victoria Station hole went to. Presumably to the embankments near Wilford.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

There would have been a lot of rock needed for infill for the viaducts through the meadows & what about Bulwell viaduct.

[BulwellBrian 107]

There was the material out of the tunnels as well.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

Yes three of them & the stuff that was dug out where Carrington Station was too.

The bit of the tunnel under Thurland Street was done cut & cover to lessen the risk to buildings such as the "Corn Exchange & Smiths Bank"(Watson Fothergill)

[BulwellBrian 107]

One of the important aspects of railway building was/is the balance of excavated material with embankment fill needed, any shortage or surplus presents extra problems of disposal of or finding extra material. Much more difficult in the 19th century than now.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

Looking at the photographs of the building of the GCR I often wonder what happened to all the spoil.?

[StephenFord 866]

Well there were a lot of embankments to create, and they absorb a vast amount of spoil - think of the long one from the bridge over the Trent at Wilford down towards Ruddington. The base was probably not far short of the width of a motorway (I'm sure someone will come up with an actual figure) as the slope of the side had to be gentle enough to ensure stability. For the same reason the whole thing had to be fairly well compacted, and then allowed to settle before track could be laid and trains run. I'm no civil engineer, but a rough calculation suggests to me that a mile of embankment 20 feet high would represent about 6 million cubic feet of material.

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

In the 1960s, a friend and I walked all the local railways as they closed and also some of the long closed ones. We did the MR Basford Bennerley, Awsworth Junction to Pinxton GNR, The Nottingham Suburban, Daybrook to Basford GNR, even the Thomas North pit railway from Strelley tip to its terminus near Western Boulevard. The latter was still in use then but only had about 2 trains a week. We did fetch a few souvenirs out of the closed down signal boxes. We also walked across Bulwell Viaduct after it closed. The best one was walking across Awsworth Viaduct (Forty Bridges) at Giltbrook. I nearly fell down one of the chimneys from a dwelling in one of the arches.

If only digital cameras were around then.

[Cliff Ton 10,458]

Interesting but depressing photos in the "new releases" on the RTS website today. Victoria Station in the throes of demolition.

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-02

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-04&serial=2

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-06&serial=4

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-08&serial=6

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-12&serial=10

http://www.rcts.org.uk/features/mysteryphotos/show.htm?img=67-009-16&serial=14

[barclaycon 569]

Re. GCR embankments.

I'm given to understand that a lot of the material that they removed from places like the Victoria Station basin and the various tunnels went to making up the embankments. Even so, they would have still needed emormous amounts of material. The number of bricks and the mortar used must also have been colossal. Especially as they liked to used those nice 'blue brindle' bricks with black lime mortar.

Making structures look attractive was important in those days!

Re. Victoria Station demolition.

Yes, very depressing to see. One point I'd like to know more about is the fact that they laid new freight lines away from the building work to allow trains to run through. Was this just a temporary measure to fulfil existing contracts ? Or was the intention to maintain a link through Nottingham?

Either way, they were eventually torn up and then built on.

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

While they were demolishing Vic, my mate was courting the girl next door to him. Her dad drove the lorries bringing the debris out of the station area. He used a lot of the platform material to build himself a patio. So as far as I know, there is some platform from Vic Station in a back garden at the Bottom of Hillbeck Crescent on the Firbeck Estate.

[Merthyr Imp 729]

Re. GCR embankments.

I'm given to understand that a lot of the material that they removed from places like the Victoria Station basin and the various tunnels went to making up the embankments. Even so, they would have still needed emormous amounts of material. The number of bricks and the mortar used must also have been colossal. Especially as they liked to used those nice 'blue brindle' bricks with black lime mortar.

Making structures look attractive was important in those days!

Re. Victoria Station demolition.

Yes, very depressing to see. One point I'd like to know more about is the fact that they laid new freight lines away from the building work to allow trains to run through. Was this just a temporary measure to fulfil existing contracts ? Or was the intention to maintain a link through Nottingham?

Either way, they were eventually torn up and then built on.

Just looked up a few references on these points:

According to 'Forward to Nottingham Victoria' by Ken Grainger (Book Law Publications), the embankments to the north of New Basford 'could be built up by spoil from the tunnels to the south [of New Basford], but that excavated from the Nottingham station site was required to be transported southwards to build up the site for the Queen's Walk goods depot and the approaches to the crossing of the Trent at Wilford.' But apparently there was delay in obtaining access to the site of the station, and instead the station site spoil was run out to the north and 'side-cutting' of material from Ruddington was done to build up the Queen's Walk site.

'The Story of the Nottingham Suburban Railway Volume 2' by David G. Birch (Book Law) states: the pressed brick used for Victoria Station 'was mostly supplied by the Nottingham Patent Brick Company'. Their works being at Mapperley and Thorneywood.

'The Great Northern Railway in the East Midlands Volume 2' by Alfred Henshaw (RCTS) states that after Victoria station was demolished two running lines were left along the east side for ironstone traffic to Stanton Ironworks via Bagthorpe Junction and Ilkeston which could not be sent via the former Midland lines. However, this traffic ceased a year later.

Probably a lot more delving would bring up some more details on these points.

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

I have a great book first published in 1973 called The Forgotten Railways of the East Midlands. It gives brief and mostly accurate descriptions of all the railways in the area but it is (obviously) way out of date in the section which deals with what is left.

My favourite 'lost' railway is the old colliery line from Skegby Junction to Teversal. It was a very short stretch of railway which served just two collieries near Teversal. There was a small single platform station at Teversal probably for the use of miners.The station buildings still exist but have been extended and are now a private dwelling. I have some good photos of this but they were taken from adjacent the bridge over the line. This bridge has now gone but was on the Midland line from Mansfield Woodhouse to Tibshelf Junction. The trackbed of the line is in situ from the site of Skegby Junction to the site of the MR bridge just mentioned. It forms part of a nice triangular walk along the Midland line to Pleasley, the ex GNR trackbed from Pleasley to to Skegby Junction and back along the ex GNR Teversal branch. Finished off with a cuppa coffee at the Teversal Visitor Centre. It is a nice Sunday afternoon stroll for an 'Owd Git' like me.

[Dark Angel 138]

    Bubblewrap is right. The council did get the railway company to carry out a slum clearance on their behalf. Charging them compensation for the privaledge of doing so. The majority of these slum dwellers moved to other slum areas as they couldn't afford the rents of the new properties built to replace their homes. Compensation going to the owners, not the tenents. Close to 6000 people were evicted from this area. Twenty public houses were demolished, five in a sixty yard stretch in one street.

   The man who acted as agent for the Great Central Railway and the engineer building the section through Nottingham were both directors of the Nottingham Brick Company. Both worked together on the Nottingham Suburban Railway.

   I seem to recollect that the compensation alone cost half a million pounds.

   Nottingham was going to be an interchange station for locomotives. That's why two turntables were constructed. A locomotive maintenance shed was to be built at Bulwell, with a smaller servicing shed at Queens Road. Only the Queens Road shed actually got built along with carriage sheds at Bulwell, however a long standing dispute with Nottingham council over rates etc, caused the Great Central to abandon their plans for Bulwell; building their maintenance shed at Annesley instead, as the county council were more accommodating.

 If Bulwell had been built, they would have had A3's allocated and not Leicester.

  Queens Road never opened as an engine shed, but was used as a stabling point for a few years. The shed Forman never took up his duties there, being transferred straight to Annesley.

  A photograph exists of this shed with a K3 awaiting its next duty. The bay window of a brick building was to have been the formans office.

   Maybe the railways hierarchy realised they had been had.

   It makes you wonder how much influence the Midland Railway had on this chain of events.

   There was no way the Midland Railway would have ever countered the 1881 plan. They wouldn't have agreed on night following day with the Great Northern Railway.

  As an aside, there is a fantastic blog about Annesley, created by Chris Wild, an ex fireman at Annesley.

[Dark Angel 138]

    It should read Queens Walk, not Queens Road.  Another senior moment!!

   The locomotive shed was actually called Arkwright Street, although most people knew it as QueensWalk, as it was situated adjacent to that siding and warehouses.

   It was officially closed as an engine shed in 1909, although used for stabling purposes afterwards, it's locomotive allocation being transferred to Annesley.