Armed Police

[TBI 2,351]

Just looking at the news and the shootings in Paris. Whilst we have armed units, our police are not routinely armed. I understand the Police Federation are against this. But if unarmed police respond to ever increasing numbers of incidents involving gunmen, are they, and members of the public, at greater risk?

What's your view?

[swe62 334]

we dont really want bullets flying everywhere like some countries but times change ,perhaps a limited number of highly trained mobile armed police in every town . The problem is in most smaller towns there is no police presence anyway!

[Cliff Ton 10,464]

a limited number of highly trained mobile armed police in every town .

To a large extent that already exists.

[swe62 334]

I would have said to a smaller extent Cliff

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

These are dangerous times we live in, UK police should carry a firearm and take monthly target practice like US and Australian police do. A "situation" can arise that needs split second decisions and having to wait for an armed response team could cost innocent lives.

As for bullets flying everywhere, the police have strict guidelines as to when and where to open fire. Firearm training and safety, ALWAYS check your backdrop before discharging a weapon.

The only ones who don't obey that very strict guideline are criminals.

[loppylugs 8,429]

I have no problem with armed police, but it is interesting to see what happens when a white policeman shoots a member of another race as happened in Ferguson recently. Then it becomes an excuse for a burning and looting spree.

I wouldn't want to be a cop for any money.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

My BIL is a retired police Chief, he was in charge of a town in the suburbs of St Louis, I'll bet he's glad he's retired after what has been happening. His was an elected position, one he held for many years.

[... 1,411]

Ordinary guns no good ,aparently terrorists wore bulletproof armour

but we have weapons that can make that armour useless (aparently).

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Trouble is Britain does not a team of highly trained armed police officers. The guys are great I knew loads of them back in the early 90s when I supplied Notts with their first semi auto pistols along with security boxes for their cars.

But their budget is always had been very restricted when it comes to range practice, they only get to shoot twice a year. Anyone who has ever had pistol shooting as a hobby will tell you to get anywhere near good you have to shoot every week.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

So many hours a month on a shooting range over here depending on the police dept/Sheriffs dept. But as you sayBasfordlad, handling a hand gun requires regular practice to be able to hit what you're shooting at. I think FBI agents are on the range every week.

[TBI 2,351]

Trouble is Britain does not a team of highly trained armed police officers. The guys are great I knew loads of them back in the early 90s when I supplied Notts with their first semi auto pistols along with security boxes for their cars.

But their budget is always had been very restricted when it comes to range practice, they only get to shoot twice a year. Anyone who has ever had pistol shooting as a hobby will tell you to get anywhere near good you have to shoot every week.

Twice a year range practice is unbelievable. I had an FAC for twenty years until Blair's lot banned handguns and I practised most weeks to keep my scores up. Twice a year?, still can't believe it.

[benjamin1945 16,158]

I DON'T know the facts and figures but we seem to have alot of armed Police in Nottingham,it was armed Police chasing that burglar in Hucknall i mentioned and a couple of times i had armed ones turn up for Shoplifters,i also notice them when in Morrisons Bulwell where they seem to go for breakfeast or are they 'Tasers'?

[Michael Booth 7,364]

Yes, they're tasers, benjamin1945. So you'd better behave yourself in Morrisons.

[firbeck 859]

Two years ago I was beaten up by a well known local thug. Some local youths witnessed it and phoned the police, almost before I got home dripping blood, the area was overun by armed police and the inevitable helicopter. Our good friend and neighbour was challenged by an armed copper outside out house, she only got round here by flashing her lovely eyes.

What happened, the piece of filth got away with it because of the pathetic ID system, identical pictures on a computer screen. He's still about, I wish I was evil enough to find a way of killing him before he kills another pensioner, he's a coward that likes to threaten and intimidate elderly people, the Pigs know this, but don't do owt about it, screw the law, they don't do a thing, I'll never help them again.

A few weeks ago some dickheads were firing off a shotgun over our fence. We phoned the Pigs, their reaction was beyond belief, unbelievable, they're just hopeless, vigilantes are the best way forward.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

The armed police in Nottingham perform normal policing duties as well as firearms work. At one time you would not have noticed as their guns were kept in a locked boxed fitted in the boot of their patrol car and they needed an inspectors permission to unlock. This of course is now totally impractical and they carry their pistols in holsters for a quick response.

The following is perfectly true. In the late 80s I owned a gun club and target range. I was approached by a serving armed officer who having seen what could be achieved with a handgun asked if I could help him improved his standard. I sat and talked with him and was amazed to find out the police taught officers to shoot using the 'pull through' trigger action and they were not allowed to cock the hammer before taking a shot.

To explain if you are using a revolver the trigger has two 'pressures' the first part of the trigger pull rotates the cylinder and cocks the hammer you would usually need about 4 to 5 pounds of effort to take up this 'pressure'. You can imagine trying to keep your aim whilst applying that much effort to the trigger. The second pressure just breaks the sears firing the gun, only the slightest touch is needed. therefore to pull straight through taking both pressure's at once is about as inaccurate as you can get.

I therefore set out to teach the chap the correct way to shoot double action, bring the gun on to target, take up the first pressure, adjust your aim and touch off. With practice this can be achieved in less than a couple of seconds. Anyway the chap bought his own revolver for practice and soon became a very reasonable shot.

The day came of the police range day, off he went smile on face and from independent reports from the range owner I know he impressed his fellow officers with his speed and accuracy.

A couple of days later he came in looking as if he had a mouth full of nettles, "What's up with you I asked?" "Nearly lost my firearms ticket" he said and then went on to explain. The police instructor had watched him shoot then took him to one side and told him if he ever shot like that again he would have his police authority withdrawn. One of the phrase's used was we don't what to be seen as murders, he was told in no uncertain terms that he must go back to the using the straight pull through even though the instructor conceded the mans method was faster and more accurate.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Firbeck, depends on exactly what you mean by firing over your fence.

If you mean that the gun was pointed over your fence firing in the direction of your property that is most certainly a serious offence. The attending officers could/should seize the shotgun concerned , this should then be held in police custody pending the outcome of their trial.

If you mean they were stood with their backs to your fence firing say into a field where they have permission to shoot, then no offence has been committed and the police would be powerless to act beyond asking them nicely to move on. Advice they are not forced in law to take.

The only chance you would have in these circumstances would be if you could prove that some of the pellets had somehow landed on your property as this is an offence.

[TBI 2,351]

# 15

The technique you describe, compressed surprise break, had been in common usage since the early sixties, as you'll know. You'd have thought the police would understand the need to be up-to-date in their techniques when developing their new firearms units in the eighties.

As regards the present-day situation, I see that Police Scotland have recently reduced the visibility of firearms because politicians have complained that they, and the public wouldn't like to see armed police! Police Scotland currently have only 10 armed officers in every 1,000.

I wonder how many members of the public were consulted. Politicians again!

[Rikki72 17]

Going back to the original question, in my opinion it's not a good idea at all. Anyone remember this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29943441

More people carrying guns means the chances of mistakes happening will only increase (to err is human). Better to have a small number of specialists. Besides, the murderers in Paris had assault rifles and body armour. A bobby with a pistol would have had very little chance anyway.

[TBI 2,351]

That was an embarassment and absolutely shouldn't have happened, but as the report states, the girl was hit by a bouncing ejected case which caused a minor injury. We perhaps need to take a bigger view.

My thread was only prompted by the Paris events, not specifically about that. Later in that news report it was stated that more and more incidents of this type could be expected by terrorists, jihadists and criminals. Frankly, that worried me!

I think back eighteen months or so with horror, as everyone did, at the news footage of the murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby. Whilst his murderers were still strutting around with blood-stained knives and a pistol, members of the public continued to walk by within feet. The first police on the scene were unarmed and ordered to keep back, waiting for armed response. This they did and it was fifteen minutes from the first 999 call until the firearms unit arrived. In any country with routinely armed officers, the two murderers would have been dealt with immediately. In those minutes, many other innocent members of the public could easily have been slaughtered too.

The UK is one of the few countries where our police are routinely unarmed. Are we right and all those other countries wrong?

[firbeck 859]

Firbeck, depends on exactly what you mean by firing over your fence.

e.

The area concerned is a nature reserve and SSI, these scum were standing on the public footpath just over my fence, firing indiscrimately at anything they fancied. Our son was watching them from his bedroom window, we were relaying everything that happened directly to the police by phone. Eventually he shouted at them and they legged it off down back alleys in the direction of a rough housing estate, I told the police exactly where to go and pick them up, they ignored all this all they were interested in was how I knew so much about firearms. In desperation, I informed them I'd loosed off with a Heckler and Koch and a Browning 9mm at the local MOD police range, legitimately!!!

After half an hour, two traffic cops from Chelmsford arrived, they hadn't a clue where they were, were unarmed and completely disregarded our info. They wandered off into the dark, they never even had the courtesy to knock on the door afterwards to see if we were OK, never heard a thing since. No wonder the Terrorists get away with it, I have to point out that the huge Braintree police station is just up the road from us, snug behind it's security fencing and direct link to Sainsburies so they can stuff their faces instead of solving serious crimes.

There is very little respect for the police in Braintree amongst the local population, me top of the list, I could tell you some right stories about their incompetence.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Firbeck,

I have no idea how far you want to take this but from what you describe and offence has certainly been committed, I doubt they would have written permission to shoot over a nature reserve. I also doubt they have a shotgun license or there would have been no need to run away.

Shooting from a footpath is not strictly an offence the law states 'you shall not shoot within 50mtrs of the centre of a footpath so as to endanger life or property'.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

TBI if you shot in Nottingham I think we may end up knowing each other.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Rikki72.

Re the police foopah at Nott's headquarters. So an armed officer arrives back at base with a loaded pistol, I have no problem with that.

I have a great problem with his level of training or his lack of use of that training. By all means have a magazine in the gun, but why had he cocked it putting a round in the chamber? if he was not in immediate danger. If he thought he needed to have the gun ready to shoot why was the safety catch not engaged? you only drop the safety catch when the gun is on target. If he was trying to unload the weapon and had a problem why was he not in an area designated for this purpose? where the muzzle of the gun would be pointed at a bullet proof structure. Many unanswered questions I think you will agree.

Way back in the late 70s the army got rid of the term 'accidental discharge' AD where a gun is fired without the user meaning to. We were left only with 'negligent discharge' ND. In others words a gun should never fire unless it is meant by the user, you will be put on a charge and face a court of inquiry for an ND.

The only exception to this rule as far as I know is when you are working with larger weapons say a tank gun and you have a miss fire. You then have a set time period where you are not allowed to take the round out of the chamber for fear of a 'cook off' and occasionally they do before the end of the waiting period.

If truth be known the only thing I can think of as to why this happened is someone was showing off to kids. 'Look at me I have a big gun, would you like to see my big gun' TOSSER.

The officer concerned should have been suspended immediately and sacked within a week.

[TBI 2,351]

Nearly all of my shooting was in London, I was a member at East Barnet and Hendon clubs and also shot on the Dartford ranges.

I did sometimes shoot at the range on Carlton Hill ( a policeman was a member there ) and small-bore at the Castle. But only for a short while before the license changes.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Its year since I shot at the castle. My main club was Nott's Vintage Arms Society with the range at Ravenshead. Then I was the face if that's a nice way to put it of T K Statham Firearms.