Italian pows in Nottingham

[Arthur-Robin 15]

Hello, my name is Sean. I am in New Zealand and am searching for info (public or private message) on my seeming-probable/possible real maternal grandfather &/or family. There are evidences &/or story that my maternal grandmother had an affair with a ww2 Italian pow in (Underwood?) Notthingham/shire in circa May/June/July 1946 (and that my mother came from that). Unfortunately i don't have any name/s for the pow (except possibly a very-faintly possible dubious name). My mothers main sources (aunties [and her mother and father]) are all deceased now, and my uncles are not willing to help (being christians they consider it offensive/scandalous [as if all humans are not mixed good and bad]). We can not get a paternity test because the only sample from my mothers commonly/legally assumed father is hair without the roots. I don't know whether the Italian pow was repatriated or stayed in UK (but i had had the impression for some unknown reason that he stayed). (I have emailed the red cross to ask if they have repatriation lists.)

I am not sure if i am allowed to give my deceased grandmothers name (which is necessary for if anyone possibly knows anything), since in this forum's rules it says about strict privacy? If i am can you please say so and i will post in next reply post, or else i can give link to other forums posts i have posted that have her name.

Either any thing anyone might know about the story/affair, or else any suggestions as to how/what might be good for me to find out info/records may help alot (census? naturalisation records?). Obviously I am not in UK/Notts and it is not easy to search this from NZ. (I have been really wanting to shift to UK for ages but am still stuck here having been held up by situation/condition here, having to apply to "register as a uk citizen" since only mother not father born in uk, and by disability/income/accomodation in uk requirments. My mother Jennifer was born in Underwood, and she went back to the UK to live for awhile about 10 years ago, but about 5 years ago she came back to NZ (after my sister's suicide and) after she had some health toubles and had no close family in uk.)

[Cliff Ton 10,459]

Welcome to Nottstalgia Arthur-Robin. There are several people here who might be able to give you further advice or help on the subject, because we've solved a few similar problems in the past.

But, yes, we need a few names and dates and locations to get started, so feel free to give us as many details as you can.

[poohbear 1,360]

I think the rules here are meant to keep the anonymity of members who prefer it.There are many cases where members identify themselves and indeed have photos on here... Using your Grandmothers name is your decision.

[Cliff Ton 10,459]

This might be slightly interesting. All the WW2 PoW camps in Britain.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/nov/08/prisoner-of-war-camps-uk

[Arthur-Robin 15]

Thankyou CliffTon & PoohBear,

Ok my grandmothers name was Rosalba Edwards nee Poole.

Time circa may/june/july 1946.

Place (Underwood?) Nottingham/Nottinghamshire (i think?)

The affair was with an Italian pow (from story/evidence).

(My mother mentioned a name like Petrucci or "Hughes" from memory but they are very doubtful.)

After the affair it is said that my commonly assumed grandfather brought the family to New Zealand to get away from the Italian pow. (Sometime after my mother was born.)

There seem to have been quite a few pow camps in Notts:

raf camp Langar
tollerton camp, tollerton
boughton camp, new ollerton
3 magdala Rd Nott
serlby Hall camp, blyth
carlton Hall, lindrick, worksop
wollaton Park Nott
norton camp, cuckney, mansfield
carburton camp Youngrough Breck, worksop
ledbury/gpc Herefs & Notts (german?)
nether headon, retford Notts
[langar Nott?]

[annswabey 599]

Do you have your Mother's birth certificate? If so, I assume no fathers name is given on that. Do you mean she was conceived in Underwood or did her mother actually live in Underwood? When did your Grandmother marry? Perhaps not a good idea to post the answers to these questions on the forum but you could send me a private message on here or contact me via my website

[DAVIDW 1,681]

From the info that Arthur-Robin has provided in the first message I drew a blank too .

However widening the search, there is a marriage in Dec qtr 1948 in Basford district for a Arthur Edwards and a Helen Poole .

In the previous year , 2nd Qtr 1947 in Basford district was a birth for a Jennifer M Edwards with mothers maiden name Poole. Assuming these are connected though again a bit confusing if baby has the Edwards name before the parents were married .

Am assuming Underwood comes under Basford district in BMDs.

Any of these names familiar ?

[DAVIDW 1,681]

I should have said there were other births around that time for Edwards surname , with mothers maiden name Poole so maybe its a different family ?

EDWARDS JOHN S 1942 Basford, Nottinghamshire, England

EDWARDS MARGARET R 1943 Basford, Nottinghamshire, England

EDWARDS MARTIN C 1953 Nottingham, Nottinghamshire, England

[annswabey 599]

I hadn't looked for the marriage, David, but there's a tree on Ancestry which states that she married in Egypt in 1939 - husband in RAF by the look of it. The birth I found for who I assume is the right person matches the info on the tree. She wasn't from Notts, though. The child's birth was registered as Edwards mothers maiden name Poole - the one you mentioned above. Edwards and Poole had obviously been married for a while, if the info on ancestry is right.

[Arthur-Robin 15]

Thank-you annswabey & davidw

Yes Jennifer M Edwards is my mother's maiden name (she was born early april 47, the affair was circa may/june/july 46). (Note the Guinevere is suggestive?)
The Eric S Edwards is my mothers brother / my uncle.
The Margaret is probably my mothers sister Margaret.
No, its not the first Arthur Edwards & Helen Poole, it is the 2nd [Rosalba Poole & Lisle/Eric Edwards] (i think they wer married in n.w. Egypt?).
Yes the birth cert would say her father is Lisle/Eric C Edwards, but my grandmother was married and had an "affair" and the official records would not say that. My uncle Eric remembers time when/after my mother born, so grandmother was already married.
I don't have my mothers certificate but on my certificate it says she was born in Underwood Nottingham. From your info that is otherwise = Basford.

I'm not sure if any of the above violates privacy rules from what annswabey said? My grandparents are dead, my mother and uncles are in NZ, and my mother has different married name.

I am interested to try find a copy of the 'italian connection':

https://woods2012.wordpress.com/history/old-memories/the-italian-connection/

I also just found this other topic on pow camps in Notts

http://nottstalgia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4769

[Arthur-Robin 15]

sorry i made a mistake, that should have been john s edwards not eric s edwards.

there seem to have been quite a few similar happenings in UK:

http://www.italiangenealogy.com/forum/italian-genealogy/2205

[annswabey 599]

I would say, as a general rule, that it's OK to name people who are deceased, but not those who are living, even if they live abroad or have a different name

I think it would be worth getting your mothers birth certificate. No doubt her husband, Mr Edwards, is given as the father but it might give clues as to where she was living. Was Mr Edwards still in the Forces, I wonder?

[DAVIDW 1,681]

To be honest without a surname for your Italian gentleman it will be virtually impossible to trace him ,especially if as you say his name is unlikely to be on your mothers birth cert .

I did a search on the news archives but nothing relevant showed up for Palucci .

One small snippet did appear for Rosalba C.M.Poole in that in 1930 she got a Derbyshire Minor Scholarship at school in Eckington .Derbys .Doesn't help your search unfortunately !

Basford district was an administration area for births, marriages and deaths and covered a large area of rural Notts and would have included Underwood and other surrounding villages .

[Arthur-Robin 15]

Sorry just to clear seeming possible confusion:
My grandmother is the one that was married to Edwards and had alledged affair with Italian pow ca may/jun/jul 46, my mother is the alledged offspring of the affair.
I don't think i need my mothers/grandmothers certificate. My mother was born in Underwood Nottingham in 47, her brother John & sister Marg were born in Basford in 42 & 43 respectively, so the alledged affair in 46 was surely in Basford/Underwood Nottingham/shire. (My mothers cert wouldn't say where she was conceived, my grandmother wasn't necessarily married or had affair where she was born.)
Yes i think i remember "family" members saying (my grandmother? and) my commonly/legally assumed grandfather Edwards were involved in forces in middle east (not sure if as soldier or [brethren?] chaplaincy) and married in n.w. Egypt. I am not sure if Edwards was still in forces but the affair was ca may/jun/jul 46 [after war ended and few years after Italy surrendered]
Sorry, ok i wont name living only deceased, though the few named were already named in replies.
So we have narrowed it down to an Italian pow near Basford/Underwood Nottingham/shire ca may/jun/jul 46 (thankyou).

Thankyou Davidw, i don't think anything is impossible (though unhelpful people make it almost impossible), but sometimes somethings are easier with others help. Someone might know something given my grandmothers name and time and location etc. Or else there must be either repatriation or naturalisation and census records/lists/docs, and if i had a list of names i might be able to work out from it. Unfortunately the closest census isn't due to be released until about 2052! I may have to hire a private investigator if i can afford it since i don't have legal rights to view docs/recs under privacy laws.

The faintly possible name was Petrucci or "Hughes" not Palucci, i think (but the names are very dubious).

[DAVIDW 1,681]

Well it may help with the names being mentioned on here . Someone googling the names in the future may know something .

On Facebook if you type "Petrucci, Nottingham" in the search bar , a number of names come up , (also a few Pettrucio's).

You could try sending a tactful private message to them

but in my experience you rarely get replies to such family history enquiries . Good luck !

[annswabey 599]

I think you DO need the certificate, if only to get her address at the time - as you know so little, any small clue might help! I know someone who lived in Underwood at the time although she was only about 9 when your mother was born. From her address you may be able to trace neighbours who might know something

There are some records of POW's held in England at the time at the National Archives although names are rarely given and as we don't have the name for sure or where he was held, it wouldn't really help.

Census is unlikely to help either - there was no census in 1941 and 1951 is perhaps too late

[Arthur-Robin 15]

Ok, thankyou for all your help (you and each of the others). But just my comments/thoughts/opinions/difficulties:

But i thought her certificate will only say Underwood or Basford not her street and number?
(I don't remember my paternal grandfather's certificate that i had to get for "registering as a uk citizen" saying any street and number only Hetton le Hole, Durham?)

The census can still help because if the Italian stayed he would have been in census, except he may not have stayed in Notts (where there was/is large Italian community). Likewise if he stayed he would probably have been naturalised after at least 3 years. But the census isn't due to release until 2052; i might need the name for naturalisation records.

Any list of pows in Notts would definitely help me work out what the name is (without necessarily contacting anyone re privacy/spam suspicions). For example my mother might recognise/remember if see/hear a name. I might be able to work out from names what name is likely by various other ways. There can not have been that many Italian pows in Underwood/Basford at the time (though there were 100,000 in UK).
He seemingly may have been held in one of those 11 camps in Notts, and near Underwood/Basford, though may/jun/jul 46 is months/year after war end in 45 and few years after Italian surrender.
Which of those camps i listed is nearest Underwood/Basford?

How are we supposed to find out when the officials withold access to historical documents because not have one name? Do i need a court order or private investigator?

My grandparents were Brethren so maybe they were in brethren church there and then?

The only way i can find him is either
- if i had a certain name. But the only name/s i have are very dubious (Petrucci or "Hughes"?)
- if someone knows/remembers something 1st or 2nd hand from my grandmothers name, the place, the time. They may be my "family", the Italian (if not dead yet) &/or his kin, or neighbours/friends/officials/clergy/etc.
- documents: any lists of Italian pows in Nottingham/shire (in uk, in Italy, in Red Cross repatriation records/lists or Geneva war archive) would certainly help.
- ancestry genetic test but they say alot is guess, and they don't do ancestry genetic tetsing here in NZ only paternity/police and health genetic testing. But that may only tell me if recent Italian blood or not, not what family name (though they claim to find "cousins"). No one will help me find what is best ancestry testing company to try. I don't trust 'family tree dna'/'national genographic' for some reason. I have a bad situation & condition (incl ocd) and not easily able to deal with being sent and sending back "kits".
- paternity genetic test: but i'd have to be able to go to court and get a court order to be allowed to exhume my commonly/legaly assumed grandfather, that is if the dna isn't degraded or contaminiated; or my uncles would have to change their mind and be willing to cooperate rather than pettily/meanly/puritanically refusing because "damaging/scandalous"/offensive that grandmother may have had an affair. That would only tell us which is real grandfather, not what family name.
(- wait until after we die and find out at judgement day (if i make the 1st and not 2nd resuurection).)
(- if God/angel tells me in a dream/vision.)
(- time travel.)
(- mind reading?)

They charge rip off fees for certificates, and i have no reliable postal address because of attached company share flats neighbours attached letter boxes and junk mail/weekly papers problems (they keep putting papers in despite the 3 legal signs, and an attached flat neighbour keeps stuffing papper right inside box so no room for proper mail, and the flats boxes numbers in reverse order to street numbers so posties keep putitng in wrong box, etc).

[Arthur-Robin 15]

p.s. a few more possibilities:
Alot of the (Italian) pows worked on farms, and basford is rural district? so the farmers families might know something or have records of workers?
I think it said in reference source that Underwood has alot of pubs? The Italian(s) may have gone to a pub...?
For the address: does anyone know if Notts/UK/telecom has old telephone books/directories like they did here in Wellington NZ 20 years ago when i was looking for my real father?
Or old electoral rolls?
What are the news archives that ****** mentioned earlier? Maybe there is mention of Italian/pow in obituaries or other if can search online for words like Italian?
And as i said in last post, my grandparents were Brethren so they may have had brethren friends/pastor/elders in Underwood/Basford?
What if i pay someone local to checkout various things for me? (I can do bank transfers/deposits/direct-credits. Someone on here or not on here might need/appreciate a few pounds, and i would pay for any/all reasonible/necessary costs. I can also do international phone call if necessary.) (Asking locals, looking up local/shire/national paper/library archives/records/papers, etc.)

[DAVIDW 1,681]

Just google UK news archives and a couple of sites should come up . You can search them yourself and filter dates and counties and will see a few lines of the results , though you will have to pay to view the article .

I have searched with all those terms you suggest and very little comes up for POW camps in Notts . Maybe censorship on domestic war matters was still in place. There are plenty of stories of British troops escaping from camps in Italy though !

[Arthur-Robin 15]

you know, i gave away all my discoveries on "(King) Arthur", Atlantis, Joseph, etc for free* and they force me to have to pay to view Old newspapers etc. I wish i had of been able to publish my discoveries in such a way that they had to pay (since they refuse to even acknowledge/credit if not pay me for all my hard work and discoveries). Though i had to publish them becaue otherwise they would be still under their covering-up/silence treatment.
Somethings i don't mind paying for, but some esp old things they are just profiteering.
Though of course this is all my grandmothers and seeming-probable real-grandfathers fault. (Though uk shouldn't have been so lax/loose with its pows.)

(* though they claim the dsicoveries are not true despite all the strong quality and quantity evidences.)

[Robbie 39]

Genealogy is expensive and very time consuming but the rewards in finding out your past far out ways the costs of a few certificates. Obviously it can get very expensive if you employ a researcher but then the element of surprise and delight is not experienced unless you uncover your ancestry through your research.

[Michael Booth 7,364]

Genealogy is really fascinating and, like Robbie states, very rewarding. I wouldn't know where to begin and I doubt if I'd find the time that would be required. I've often wondered, as I've grown up, what happened to my best friend who lived a couple of houses away on Grainger Street. He probably ended up living next door to trevorthegasman in Australia, lol.

[katyjay 5,090]

Have you tried Googling him Michael? If he's done something noteworthy, his name shoild pop up.

[DAVIDW 1,681]

Friendsreunited used to be perfect to locate an old school friend. However they completely messed up what was a good idea and it's a nightmare to navigate .

I have just logged on the site , first time for years and some people that used to be listed from my year at school seem to have vanished from it .

I still think Facebook is a good way to find old pals, though as mentioned previously you don't always get replies to messages on there and if it's a common name can be hundreds of possibles .

Michael , if you want to PM me your mates name and old school I will have a look to see if he is listed on Friendsreunited (assuming you are not a member)

[annswabey 599]

Older certificates generally didn’t give much detail on address but the more recent ones should, although I can’t guarantee it. Certificates aren’t particularly expensive. You only need one and it would cost 9.25 pounds

You should forget the census. I doubt that ANYONE would be granted access to it. Also he could have lived anywhere ( or he may of course have gone back to Italy) and it wouldn’t be indexed – it would take years to go through it (and, of course, you don’t even have a definite name).

It’s highly unlikely that a list of POW’s in Nottinghamshire even exists

A court order or private investigator wouldn’t help either

Basford is the Registration district which covers a large number of places

There’s an index to Naturalisations online, but without a definite name how would we know which is the right one? Lots of people didn’t bother with naturalisation, anyway.

Yes. There are old telephone directories online – on the Ancestry website. There are also Electoral rolls for the period (not online). For these, though you really need an address or at least to know the village the person lived in. If they weren’t naturalised, they would have no right to vote so wouldn’t be on the Electoral Rolls anyway