catfan 14,793 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Migrants fleeing oppression my A%$E, take our benefit system away & then see how many would arrive here illegally. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Spot on....... Some views here are very misguided and shows how folk hav become deluded. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DJBrenton 738 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I should just point out that 'illegals' don't get benefits, housing or anything else from you or the government other than NHS treatment like anyone else who is in this country at the time they fall ill. Asylum seekers can get benefits but not illegals. This is the same tedious crap that ignores the FACT that immigrants contriibute more, on average, to this country's taxes than native born and are less likely to be in receipt of benefits 12 months later than their equivalent Brits. You can't have it both ways. Are they here stealing our jobs or our benefits? If you don't want immigrants here then get off your arse and go pick potatoes in Lincolnshire for a pittance. That's what many of these people do. And before I get the usual complaints that I dare have a different opinion, don't post opinions unless you're prepared to be contradicted. This, the last I knew, was not a UKIP site, it's a local history site so we don't all have the same views. I ca';t imagine what it's like to find the country you live in is a war zone and you have to either fight or flee. If you have no sympathy for people who find themselves in that position then I'm not sure why I should be 'proud' to have the same 'culture' as you. Compassion is what makes a society worthwhile. Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 WHY do they come here if not for an easy life. Many have travelled through six or more countries, why not stay in the first safe one. As I said ..... Deluded. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TBI 2,351 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 #53 The migrants are coming here as asylum seekers, several got through yesterday and immediately claimed asylum, that's their intention. What's UKIP got to do with the discussion about the migrant crisis? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Cliff Ton 10,458 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Spot on....... Some views here are very misguided and shows how folk hav become deluded. Possibly. In many ways. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
DJBrenton 738 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Easy life? Like I said, Get off your arse and go pick potatoes then tell us all what an easy life it is. The reason many immigrants can find work here is because too many of us won't do a day's work for anything like the amount they will. You seem totally uninformed about the facts where asylum seekers are concerned. No-one arriving through the channel tunnel can claim asylum here unless they fall within our agreed numbers. They need to have, as you say, applied in the first safe country they reach otherwise. So if they mostly aren't seeking asylum then they are seeking work because they can't claim benefits if they are illegals. We have an agreement to take our fair share of asylum seekers but they will mostly already have registered as such in another country. We, as a decent society, have agreed to share the burden and take an agreed proportion of those who reach Europe otherwise the entire burden would fall on one or two countries because of geography. Now as to why 'they all come here'. It's nonsense. With an estimated 173,100 asylum applications, Germany was the largest recipient of new asylum claims in 2014. The United States of America was second with 121,200 asylum applications, followed by Turkey (87,800), Sweden (75,100), and Italy (63,700). By comparison, the UK received 31,300 new applications for asylum by the end of 2014. So we have less than half as many asylum seekers as Italy or Sweden? How does that equate to them all coming here bcause it's a soft touch? Deluded? No, informed is the word you're looking for. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DJBrenton 738 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 One other thing that might set your mind(s) at rest about the massive invasion of feckless refugees. Between 1994 and 2002 the percentage of arrivals who sought asylum varied from 25% to a peak of 54% in 2002. Since then it's dropped to 10%. So it looks like the major worries you might have had are now 13 years late. Some of you will also be comforted to know that the level of support given to asylum seekers is far less than the income support a non-asylum seeker would get. For example a lone parent with 16 year old would only get £83.74 a week which is 57% of the amount deemed necessary for a native Briish lone parent and 16 year old to live on. The facts about asylum seekers really are nothing like the perception that's being given by some newspapers and parties. Link to post Share on other sites
catfan 14,793 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Facts like those you produce DJB can be spun anyway you want them to. You make no mention of illegals entering the UK, who knows what figures the are. Regarding immigration by any means, do we have enough Housing ? Jobs ? Hospital places ? Schools ! I don't think so. Also no mention is made of the thousands of eastern europeans who legally enter the UK since they became EEC member countries. Lets have the full picture DJB & don't just pick the figures that you think are right. Anyway potato picking is only seasonal work, done some ! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Why are they all men between 18 and 30? Someone is organising this on a grand scale. They've not hitched lifts from Southern Europe to Calais. They've been bussed in by the thousand. Also, will someone please tell me when FULL is reached. Some seem to think there is endless facilities for them. Link to post Share on other sites
DJBrenton 738 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I'm afraid educating some of you across the entire spectrum of immigration and net immgration is entirely beyond the scope of posting on a forum. I will point out a couple of salient things though. Firstly, The FACTS I quoted coulkd indeed be spun in various ways. You will notice, however that I have made simple bald statemens of fact with no spin. If you think that giving asylum seekers less than the government think is the minium a Brit is capable of living on is generous then by all means say so. If you think illegals get benefits then say so. All that leaves is, as you mentioned, legal migration fromn other European countries. As someone who has benefited from the free movement of labour available to me as an EU citizen we'll have to agree to disagree that it's a bad thing. As far as there being enough housing, hospital places and schools then maybe we should swap all the immigrants here for all the Brits living elsewhere. It won't make a significant difference to the numbers I'm afraid but it will remove large numbers of working people and replace them with pensioners. If all we did was throw out the immigrants, the working age population would drop so alarmingly that we would immediately have to raise the pension age another 5 years. We need immigrants to fill the jobs here that pay the taxes that pay the pensions. You might lament that but we don't have enough working age natives any more to sustain the older, no longer working, populations. Our age distribution is out of sync without immigrants. The facts on this are really clear and are not a matter of spin but public record. On the subject of spin. can I just point out that every argument I make about immigrants is verifiable through public records. Not the Mail. Not the Sun. Not political propoganda but public record. Counter arguments always seem lacking in hard facts and just big on rhetoric. I'm all for a civilised discussion but if anyone wants to counter my statements as being 'spin' or just opinion then please do so with figures of your own and non-political sources for them. I just use civil service/UN data or information from otrher non-biased sources. Link to post Share on other sites
tomlinson 879 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Doubtless you are correct in the figures most of the rest of us are too apathetic to confirm or otherwise, and we bow to your authority in offering to educate us, but the question I would still ask is, given the wherewithall would they fight to make their own country as they would wish it? Should they 'get of their arses' as you advised some to do in a previous post? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
The Engineer 614 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Getting a bit fed up of Cameron's current cliché. It used to be 'hard working families' but his current favourite is 'We (the government) are doing everything we can'. It gets trotted out whenever an issue of significance arises and today it applies to the migrant crisis in Calais. There are many things that could be done but in the main they would be expensive, unpopular or contravene an EU ruling (or all of these). So, instead of saying "we're doing everything", he should just say what they are actually doing and let us be the judge (and I suspect we'd be minded of another cliché 'too little, too late') 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Booth 7,364 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 The Calais situation seems to have dragged on forever but one act could get it sorted very quickly. I watch the news and see the people climbing into the back of the trailers. The truck drivers can't do much for fear of assault. The motorways are lined with hundreds of trucks with a lane open for the holidaymakers cars and local deliveries. What needs to happen is for the truck drivers to block the motorway completely so that everything comes to a standstill. The truck drivers should also refuse to drive into Calais until it's all sorted out. It's the only way to get it sorted out quickly. Instead of there being meetings next week by the authorities, there'd be meetings tomorrow. It's become a complete farce and the truckers need to take this action so that they can do their job safely and without hindrance. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
DJBrenton 738 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Doubtless you are correct in the figures most of the rest of us are too apathetic to confirm or otherwise, and we bow to your authority in offering to educate us, but the question I would still ask is, given the wherewithall would they fight to make their own country as they would wish it? Should they 'get of their arses' as you advised some to do in a previous post? You think I'm being patronising in offering to educate you yet you agree you're too apathetic to check the figures? By all means have an opinion on any subject, but accept that it's worth is only whatever work you've put into it being an educated opinion rather than an uneducated one. I tend not to proffer opinions on subjects I know nothing about yet people seem happy to have strong opinions unsupported or even contradicted by the facts. I find it sad that people are happy to form their opinions without any basis in knowledge. So your opinion is that if someone lives an country that erupts in civil war they should stay and fight? What with? You're talking about places where quite often the only side with weapons is the side that's being run away from. What exactly is this wherewithall that you speak of? Are you suggesting that they should all stay in the hope that someone comes along, organises all the citizens into an army, equips that army and trains it? Is that what you think should happen? Bearing in mind that some people are fleeing religious persecution should they someohow form minority armies to fight their majority oppressor? We live in an incredibly stable and comfortable bubble in the UK. Not everyone is so lucky, and it IS luck. Very few people here can claim any real credit for our stable governmental system, protectionj from persecution, the existence of our NHS or welfare state yet we feel that we somehow deserve all this and others don't simply because they were unlucky in where they were born or how their own country has developed. If you'd care to change places with someone from Afghanistan, Eritrea or Somalia I'm sure you'd be welcome to show them all what they should be doing instead of running away. Link to post Share on other sites
terence12 725 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 All it takes for Evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, England, France, America, and other countries have all suffered civil wars, the people living, albeit years ago, at that time fought in those civil wars, they did not run, in the main, they had little to fight with but eventually succeeded, we live in a more modern world, with modern weapons but running away from your home and letting evil win is not the answer, what, and i believe it will happen, when this kind of conflict erupts again in some part of Europe, here, france, germany, etc. will these people, welcomed eventually into these countries run again, if you get my drift, to see our futures look to our pasts. just a personal view Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 DJB seem to be under the impression that we are discussing immigration full stop. We are not. It's the current debacle in Calais and the surrounding areas that is the subject of this topic. These men are there for one and one reason only, and that is to enter the UK. I agree, some may have experienced oppression in their own country , but I bet the majority haven't. I also would put money on many of them being hardened criminals. Do we really need more child trafficking abusers, drug pushers, murderers, thieves and assorted detritus. If you think the UK is bad now, just imagine how it would be if thousands more entered. What skills could they bring to us ? How to perform FGM with a tin lid, how to balance a plastic bucket of dirty water on your head and walk four miles, how to dig a latrine . God God, even Basford doesn't warrant that. There is an old saying 'You can't civilise a cannibal by giving him a knife and fork'. We've had 2,000 years of becoming civilised, they haven't. Yes, they are human, but not civilised, and I don't mean that in a nasty way. By the way, not everyone gets their news from The Sun or Mail, some get their equally distorted view from the Guardian, Independent or Observer. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
tomlinson 879 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 You think I'm being patronising in offering to educate you yet you agree you're too apathetic to check the figures? By all means have an opinion on any subject, but accept that it's worth is only whatever work you've put into it being an educated opinion rather than an uneducated one. I tend not to proffer opinions on subjects I know nothing about yet people seem happy to have strong opinions unsupported or even contradicted by the facts. I find it sad that people are happy to form their opinions without any basis in knowledge. So your opinion is that if someone lives an country that erupts in civil war they should stay and fight? What with? You're talking about places where quite often the only side with weapons is the side that's being run away from. What exactly is this wherewithall that you speak of? Are you suggesting that they should all stay in the hope that someone comes along, organises all the citizens into an army, equips that army and trains it? Is that what you think should happen? Bearing in mind that some people are fleeing religious persecution should they someohow form minority armies to fight their majority oppressor? We live in an incredibly stable and comfortable bubble in the UK. Not everyone is so lucky, and it IS luck. Very few people here can claim any real credit for our stable governmental system, protectionj from persecution, the existence of our NHS or welfare state yet we feel that we somehow deserve all this and others don't simply because they were unlucky in where they were born or how their own country has developed. If you'd care to change places with someone from Afghanistan, Eritrea or Somalia I'm sure you'd be welcome to show them all what they should be doing instead of running away. Thank you for allowing me an opinion. In saying I am too apathetic to check figures, I admit it and do not attempt to quote figures as you have read. The wherewithall I speak of is military aid. I put the question to you that if IS were to infiltrate our country, by no means improbable, and attempted to bring us into line with their policies and religions how would you react if you were given the means to fight back with the 'wherewithall', should you wish to? Yes, we live in the institutionalised 'bubble' you speak of; yes, it is pure luck and no achievement of anyone living. The fact remains however that civil wars/ revolutions have achieved this in the past and we are fortunate not to have been involved in it ourselves, though who can guarantee this will not occur in the future? My opinion is not formed through 'basis in knowledge' of the facts but a thought that we in our 'bubble' might help what has occurred elsewhere in history.. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
TBI 2,351 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 As FLY says, this thread is not about immigration per se but the present events in Calais. I don't need lectures from anybody, I've got eyes in my head and can see the news footage daily. I fail to see how anyone could accept this isn't a crisis and a massive problem that will only continue to escalate. These people are attempting to hold everyone to ransom until they get their way and are allowed into the UK. As soon as there is capitulation, be assured the flood-gates will open. That can't be allowed to happen. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 4pm, and a very good friend of mine is about to enter the tunnel returning from France. I sincerely hope there's no trouble, or I'll be annoyed, and that is not a pretty sight. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
tomlinson 879 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have friends returning tomorrow with a 5 year old child but they're using the ferry. I understand the French farmers have been blockading the roads in protest aginst the low price of meat. Oddly enough, my friend is a pig farmer! I hope he don't let on. Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted July 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 They'll probably burn him at the stake. Link to post Share on other sites
poohbear 1,360 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 This from the country that ruled the seas and conquered half the world ...can't keep a few thousand illegals from landing at known entry ports.Nelson,Wellington,Churchill and the rest must be turning in their graves. Link to post Share on other sites
tomlinson 879 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Perhaps the answer to the present crisis is to close the tunnel and revert to ferry crossings. More shipping of course but better controlled by onboard security patrols with time to search for any possible stowaway. Link to post Share on other sites
Bubblewrap 3,815 Posted July 30, 2015 Report Share Posted July 30, 2015 Too many shareholders will loose too much if you do that (and we can't have that can we ? ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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