The English Language

[philmayfield 6,115]

.......... or perhaps we could set aside one day for conducting the forum in French. Or better still Latin! 

[jonab 1,644]

12 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

.......... or perhaps we could set aside one day for conducting the forum in French. Or better still Latin! 

By "my dialect" I meant ucknall.

[Brew 5,409]

Latin? Quod est ridicula!

[philmayfield 6,115]

2 hours ago, jonab said:

By "my dialect" I meant ucknall.

At my company we employed a few chaps who came from Hucknall. When my co-director, who was a public schoolboy needed to speak with them I had to act as translator. Fortunately after seven years at Mellish I could understand both Hucknall, Awsworth, Kimberley and Jacksdale!

[DJ360 6,721]

I got into all sorts of arguments over grammar etc., on another forum.  I gave up in the end.  My last post in the Music thread last night still has at least three glaring typos, despite me thinking I'd corrected them... twice!

 

My take on it is this:  We all probably make typos.  We see some and correct them.  Others we miss.  Typos are the result of carelessness or failure of motor skills, rather than ignorance.

 

As for spelling, this is different IMHO.  The point is that 'heard' and 'herd', though pronounced (almost) exactly the same, mean very different things, so that accurate spelling is essential for accurate communication.  Much of the time it is of no real consequence, but sometimes it is critical.   Suppose you are building, say, a car.  In practical terms it probably matters little whether all of the panels are the same colour, or whether everything fits perfectly together. But, if you get lazy with the steering or brakes, it can lead to disaster.  Surely it is better to be in the habit of getting it all right and avoiding problems?  And of course the result also looks bettere and is easier on the eye.  Same with writing I think.

 

I'm of the opinion that it is better to strive for perfection and fail, than to just allow yourself and others to settle for second best.  Also, I think it is good manners to make your posts as easy to read and understand as possible, for the benefit of your readers.

 

WHEN I WAS WORKINGTHEIRWAS AWOMANWHORECORDEDEWVERYCLIENTCONTACT IN UPPER CASE ND WITHOUT PUNCTUATIONSHE DIDN'TEVENALWAYSUSESPACESADN HER SPELING WAS AFWUL IT WAS USALLYPOSSIBLETOMAKEOUTWOT SHE WRITBUTISWASBLOODYHARDWORK  !!  What did this also say about her overall intellect and attitude to her work?

 

Which brings us to those people, not many here, but lots on wider social media, who seemingly cannot spell, punctuate or even get basic usage correct.  We all know the 'should of' v 'should have' battle, but sadly, up here in Merseyside 'Should of' is now common in speech too.. which gives us a problem..  I'm not bothered by people who make the odd mistake, or by people who clearly lack the education or skill to communicate properly.  The ones who wind me up are the wilfully ignorant, who just won't make any effort to get it right.  They are to me the equivalent of the sort who swear indiscriminately in all settings and when challenged, respond with 'It's just the way I talk..'  No pal.. it's just the way you choose to talk and it is ignorant, selfish and offensive.

 

How to respond to poor spelling and grammar is more problematic.  Some people get very angry indeed if even gently corrected.  Others don't mind.  An ex-girlfriend and her brother, who are both still good friends to me after 50+ years, both have pretty appalling spelling, but I find it quite endearing, so I say nothing.

 

I sometimes like to see those online rants, where common mistakes are listed, with the correct spelling etc. alongside, but not aimed at specific individuals.  I do wonder though.. whether they are read just by the indignant such as me, or whether they actually bring about any change in those they are aimed at?

 

Yours, in pedantry..

 

Col 

 

 

 

 

[philmayfield 6,115]

Please check third paragraph. “Bettere”. That’s what you spread on your breade isn’t it? 

[LizzieM 9,507]

Good post DJ.

[DJ360 6,721]

Ya got me.. Phil.. but only a 'typo'.

 

  Please check use of " " 'speech marks', to quote 'bettere'.  Surely it should be single inverted commas for quoting text? 

 

Col

 

[loppylugs 8,427]

I agree with you, Col.

 

I think the main thing we have to remember is that we are on a public forum with folks of all educational levels and to some degree dialects.  We are not writing a doctoral thesis or research paper.

 

I like to go over my posts for spelling etc.. Mainly because my IPad makes unwarranted assumptions about what I mean and tries to alter the spellings accordingly.  I find that they often slip by me.  My late wife was pretty good on grammar and punctuation and was always correcting me for run on sentences.  I was glad of that.  I probably got better marks in research papers because of it.

 

I said all of that just to say, let's cut each other some slack Y'all.   (There's bit of Georgia good grammar for you.). 

[philmayfield 6,115]

1 minute ago, DJ360 said:

Ya got me.. Phil.. but only a 'typo'.

 

  Please check use of " " 'speech marks', to quote 'bettere'.  Surely it should be single inverted commas for quoting text? 

 

Col

 

I hang my head in shame!

[philmayfield 6,115]

I obviously had to research the “double and single quotation marks” subject and discovered that there is ‘no absolute rule’ on either.  

[loppylugs 8,427]

I had always thought that double quotation marks were used when you knew who said it.  Ie Winston Churchill said, "........."   Where you are unsure who said it.   Someone said, '.............'  Not totally sure of that, just a thought.  

[philmayfield 6,115]

Apparenty useage in the USA can differ. The old problem of two countries separated by a common language. There’s lot to read about it.

[loppylugs 8,427]

I'm sure you are right, Phil.  Thus my previous post about not letting it bother us too much. 

[DJ360 6,721]

My head is beginning to hurt...

 

I think you are probably right Phil, as there are many 'grey' areas in English Grammar.  No less a luminary than Stanley Middleton, the novelist who also taught me English for a time at school, sometimes admitted defeat in some fine element of 'Clause Analysis' (What others I believe knew as 'Parsing'.)

 

As I recall from school, double inverted commas are used to indicate speech as in. "Hello" said Fred. 

 

Single inverted commas are used to indicate that a portion of text is a quote from something.  For example, above, I wrote: ' "Hello" said Fred.'

 

So, as a basic rule, speech is indicated by double inverted commas, and a quote from a piece of text, even if it includes speech, is indicated by single inverted commas at the start and end of the quote.

 

That said, I do recall there being special or difficult cases, but I can't bring one to mind at present.

 

Also, as hinted above.. use the Internet at your peril, as you will often find conflicting ideas emanating from US and UK sources.  But then, what do you expect from people who describe a full stop as a 'period', and inverted commas (or brackets) as 'parenthesis' 

 

Disappointingly.. this site, which appears to be British, has the rules exactly reversed from what I was taught.  https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/punctuation/inverted-commas-quotation-marks

 

I suppose the only answer is to be consistent in your own use of commas, especially within a single piece of writing.

 

Col

[plantfit 7,580]

 

Rog

[radfordred 6,284]

A lot would stop posting on here if grammar was an issue, I can't help being a bit thick 

[loppylugs 8,427]

That's just the point RR.  I don't think grammar is a major issue.  I'm interested to read other's viewpoints on it though.  It was not my best subject in school. 

[philmayfield 6,115]

I’m sorry for putting DJ360 to a lot of trouble in his research. However I think he secretly enjoyed it. I deliberately put in the split infinitive to upset the grammar police.

[radfordred 6,284]

Don't worry about DJ360 post most people don't read anything over 180 character, anything over 2 lines, I skip bet I speak for 90% on here

[philmayfield 6,115]

That’s what Twitter’s all about. I don’t follow it personally because I’m not interested in other people’s opinions and I’m pretty sure no one cares about mine either. 

[DJ360 6,721]

I don't think this recent conversation has been 'aimed at' anybody.  Just a discussion about Grammar.  Those who are interested will read it.  Those who aren't are entitled to ignore it if they wish.

[catfan 14,793]

9 hours ago, philmayfield said:

.......... or perhaps we could set aside one day for conducting the forum in French. Or better still Latin! 

 

Or better still, type like the youngsters do on FB etc, text speak or summat they call it m8 ! LOL !

[Compo 10,328]

Thought this appropriate:

 

 

[nonnaB 4,895]

Interesting reading, as said before not everyone is interested in grammar. As long as they are understood that is what matters.

Even the pope when he was elected said " If I make a mistake please correct me" but we love his mistakes as it makes him like us and an accent or dialect is more interesting. Who needs to be perfect?

The dialect from this area is very difficult to understand and I keep having to tell people " sorry I don't understand Piemontese. " I' m just getting my brain around Sicilian although I can pronounce a few phrases such as " wheres the cat" and " what are we doing" ( very useful in certain situations)