DJ360 6,712 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 Just for clarity, and for the sake of peace, I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm having a polite discussion with Margie, which I haven't finished yet. This stuff interests me. I have some knowledge, but don't claim expertise. Others have contributed and they are of course welcome to do so. 12 hours ago, MargieH said: Col, I'm not sure that intelligence and the other things you mention are fixed personality traits - not even sure that some of them can even be classed as such, especially intelligence and wisdom. I do know that I am a very different person from the one I used to be when I was young - hopefully more tolerant and wise. I am unhappy when people excuse their negative behaviour by saying things like 'It's just the way I am' or when people say about someone else: 'They'll never change!' I believe everyone can become the person they TRULY want to be, although some things about ourselves are harder to refine than others (and which particular things will be different for each individual) For myself, I just want to be the person God wants me to be... Hi Margie. You've made a lot of good points there. I did a bit of research and found that current research based thinking points to you being right about intelligence. The thinking now seems to be that intelligence increases with age, at least up to a point. But, and it's an interesting one. 'relative intelligence' remains constant. The effect is that the least intelligent will remain the least intelligent compared to others even though their own intelligence increases and so on. All of this is very complex and I don't pretend to have a 'handle' on it all, or even much of it. It's donkey's years since I studied psychology and I didn't 'get' all of it then. Huge subject. Whether intelligence is a personality trait seems also to be the subject of a lot of debate, but I think what you are referring to in discussing how people change,or grow, are behaviours, rather than traits. So, if you like, it seems we can maybe moderate the effects of inherent traits by modifying/developing our behaviours. You seem feel the same way about 'It's just the way I am', that I feel about 'It's just my opinion'. Both are, or can be, easy options. People can surely change. But they have to want to change which means they must first see a need. I also mentioned stereotypes, which some people seem very fond of and have gone outside my discusion with Margie. Stereotypes, by definition, are: 'Widely held but fixed and oversimplified images or ideas of a particular type of person or thing.' or 'A set idea that people have about what someone or something is like, especially an idea that is wrong:' Stereotyping as a process can be useful, or at least pretty benign. So for example market researchers and sales people work with stereotypical ideas of certain social groups, to develop marketing strategies which will appeal to their target audience. The husband of a former colleague of mine ( He is called Mike Mitchell) even managed to get the BBC to make a whole documentary about 'Stereotyping in TV Comedy' He was arguing that stereotypes of certain 'character types' were divisive and damaging. You know the stuff. Dad's Army for instance, and 'Last of the Summer Wine', are full of such stereotypes. We white Anglo Saxon Brits. laughing at ourselves. But some.... 'typical black/asian/jewish/muslim', can be much more dangerous, as there simply isn't a typical black/asian/muslim/jew, anymore than there is a typical Englishman, but those with an agenda can pounce. It comes down, as it so often does, to whether the intent is benign or malicious. I'd argue that the intent in Dad's Army etc., was benign, but some internet stuff now isn't. When stereotypes are used critically or negatively about people, places etc., they don't bear scrutiny because it only takes one person or thing who does not conform to the stereotype, to render the stereotype useless. Add in that where human beings are concerned, no two people are alike, so assigning common characteristics to a whole group is bound to fail. That is why I believe that all stereotypes are wrong. That is my view on stereotypes. Col Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 10 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said: I am here to !earn patience. I'm failing miserably. You are not alone. I share your pain. Col Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MargieH 7,594 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 Interesting post, Col. I TRY to avoid stereotyping too, because I want to see all people as individuals, regardless of their gender, race, religious persuasion, job or upbringing. With notable exceptions - extreme terrorist groups for example - I find this is possible, although not always easy! (And, dare I say, maybe there are even people within the terrorist groups who no longer wish to be there but are unable to leave) I expect that, after this post, many will now have slotted me into a stereotypical group of namby pamby something-or-others, but I can cope with that...... 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted November 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 No Margie, the exact opposite, you're the voice of sense and reasoning as usual. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 Spot on in my view Margie. You'll have to take my word for it but I did mean to mention that we all tend to unconsciously stereotype people, places and things. (The wine kicked in and I forgot... ) Thing is, I believe we have to work within ourselves to overcome the tendency. As an example, when I was still working as a Careers Adviser, if I saw a young person come into the office wearing the 'uniform' of Rockports, Trackies and a baseball cap, it was difficult to avoid making assumptions about them. But the trick is not to act upon your assumptions, until you actually know who you are dealing with. They often surprise you. Below is a lengthy (sorry!) and possibly quite unintentionally funny extract from the only letter of complaint I have ever felt the need to send to the NHS. IMHO, it recounts the effects of stereotyping, even amongst supposedly intelligent and highly trained people, along with my reaction to it: Quote 'On the morning of June 2nd 2009, I developed a chest pain which I did not understand or recognize. Having previously suffered a Heart Attack, and with the encouragement of work colleagues, I attended the Kirkby NHS Walk in Centre for advice. I was immediately treated with aspirin and an ambulance was called which delivered me promptly to FazakerleyHospital. Whilst in the ambulance I was ‘wired up’ for ECG etc. The Ambulance Paramedics were courteous, good humoured, reassuring and efficient. I was handed over to staff in what I believe was the ‘Resuss’ (Presumably Resuscitation) section of Fazakerley A&E. I remained in the hospital until around 7:00pm on Weds June 3rd. After some hours I was informed that a Heart Attack had been pretty much ruled out, as was Pancreatitis. During the day I was moved from ‘Resuss’, to ‘Medical Decisions’, to ‘Medical Assessment’ and finally to another bay of ‘Medical Assessment’. Although my recall isn’t exact, I estimate that I was seen by a minimum of three and possibly four Doctors during this period. Each of them asked me essentially the same questions and each of them wrote down notes. Each also asked me if I had had a Chest X-Ray, which I confirmed, to each of them. Later in the evening I was asked to return to the first ‘Medical Assessment’ bay to speak to Dr XXXX. I was asked about my lifestyle and recounted my diet, exercise regime etc. Dr XXXX showed little interest in this and I was asked about my alcohol consumption. I was honest about this and accurately reported that my consumption is in excess of the guidelines. However, Dr XXXX’s extremely vocal reaction, in an open ward, was in my view totally disproportionate and highly unprofessional. I do not expect to be demonised, patronised and publicly admonished by a Doctor, however strongly he may personally feel. My level of consumption may or may not be unwise, but it is neither illegal, nor especially uncommon. I was extremely annoyed at this point and had I not been in the vulnerable position of being covered in electrodes, sticking plaster etc. and still potentially suffering a significant heart problem, I may well have walked out of the hospital in disgust. I spent the night in ‘Medical Assessment’. Next morning, I was visited by a lady who introduced herself as ‘one of the alcohol nurses’. A promising start… Her opening question was. ‘Do you know where you are?’ This was followed by requests for me to hold out my hands, stick out my tongue etc. I was asked if I crave a drink in the morning. Who doesn’t?.. coffee in my case.. and whether I crave alcohol during the day, which I don’t. As the interrogation continued, I became increasingly annoyed. I will explain why: I did not ask to be referred to the ‘alcohol nurse’ and I take great exception to any Doctor or anyone else presuming to refer me without consultation or consent. We are not yet in a Police State. The questioning by the ‘alcohol nurse’ was clearly driven by a series of stereotypical views, preconceptions and expectations about what I ought to be like, presumably based on what I had truthfully told Dr XXXX about my alcohol consumption. Had I lied, there would have been no basis for the referral, as there would have been little or no evidence upon which to base it. Although my heart condition and medication preclude running, I ‘power walk’ many miles each week, train with weights and also swim. I eat a sensible, healthy, low fat and low ‘carb’ diet and endeavour to keep my weight down. I gave up smoking some years ago. I am confident that even at 60 and with a damaged heart, I could out walk and out swim many people half my age. Apparently none of this counts. I drink more than the ‘guidelines’ and am therefore fair game for criticism, ritual humiliation and a totally judgemental approach by ‘professionals’ who should know better. I find it difficult to escape the conclusion that if I drank exactly to the recommended limit, lived on burgers and chips and never left the couch, I would attract less criticism and judgement than I did in Fazakerley Hospital. I am sorry to disappoint the ‘Alcohol Police’, but I am not a shambling, dull-eyed wreck, I do not have tremor, and always manage to find my way to bed, without assistance. I am a normal family man, qualified to post graduate level and beyond, who holds down a responsible job and does not miss time, or suffer reduced performance due to alcohol. I work in an advisory and supportive role with young people and am bound to say that if I approached my clients in the same judgemental and critical manner that I experienced in Fazakerley Hospital, I would be dismissed, in short order.' The response to the above was initially a phone call from a senior hospital manager asking 'what I wanted'. I replied that I wanted people to stop relying on stereotypes, behave professionally and understand the difference between advice, criticism and judgement. I later received a letter of apology, an assurance that the staff concerned had been 'spoken to' and that 'lessons would be learned'. It's quite funny looking back but it wasn't at the time. Col 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MargieH 7,594 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 Col, it IS a bit funny as I could imagine your sitting in the hospital bed looking indignant when the alcohol nurse started asking you questions, but perhaps they could have done it in a more tactful way? I'm sure they we're only thinking of your best interests, as over-consumption of alcohol IS an important factor in several medical conditions. However, it's good that you no longer smoke, also that you exercise and try to eat a healthy diet, and I hope you don't have to go through the same experience again. Did they ascertain what had caused the pain? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted November 12, 2016 Report Share Posted November 12, 2016 Never found out Margie. Having had ( and failed to initially recognise) a pretty damaging heart attack, I'm quite wary of any sort of chest pain I can't understand or recognise. I've been along a few times to get checked out. I do seem to be getting a bit of real angina occasionally nowadays though, so I think a bit of a review is in order. And yes. I can't deny that I like a drink. I certainly exceed the guidelines, but I'm not alone in that. I do make myself have breaks though, because I would be happy to have a couple every night and realise that's not wise. Col 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 Mrs Col still laid up with a stomach bug. I'm increasingly doubtful that 'norovirus' or similar is involved because I reckon it would have gone through my daughter's family and then Mrs Col and I, also maybe my other daughter who visited them while 'Ickle Grace was poorly. Also, it's gone on too long. Norovirus is usually a quick 24-48 hour thing in my experience. So my money is on the Subway Chicken Mayo. Goingout in a bit to get Mrs C some Bananas and more Yoghurt. She can't seem to eat 'owt else. My bit of a cold is now mostly an annoying cough. I'll live... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
catfan 14,793 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 Been summoned to appear in front of the phlebotomist next week for a blood test ! At this rate I'll have none left ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted November 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 A what ! I didn't know you had a speech impediment Catfan. I'll have to consult my thesaurus for that one. Just keep it topped up ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 # 514............you be ok Catfan...........at least they come at you from the front.............lol. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted November 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 Blimey, I bet that's a relief ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
catfan 14,793 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 A visit to the "blood letting dept" FLY ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,424 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 At least its not a 'Rear Admiral'. . At least, I don't think it is... I'm sure you'll be ok. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
carni 10,094 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 #514 Me too catfan. Mines tomorrow at 9.15am. It's a fasting one, so no cuppa in the morning. Have to attach a reminder note to the kettle tonight! Hope your results are good Miduck. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
catfan 14,793 Posted November 16, 2016 Report Share Posted November 16, 2016 At first I was offered a 6.45am appointment next Monday....................WHAAAT an ungodlly hour that is, thanks but no thanks, now appearing at a more civilised time of 10.30am ! Ta carni, likewise miduck ! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 For some years I went to Whiston Hospital, about 10 miles away, for all my blood tests. Then about 7 or 8 years ago my Doc asked me to get a blood test outside of my routine ones. " Another trek to Whiston then" quoth I. "Nope" He said. " Just turn up here at 9:00am on Friday, we've got our own phlebotomist now.." Turned up at 9:00 am to find half the population of Billinge already there queuing. And no phlebotomist. She finally turned up about 9:30 and then it was 9:45 before she got round to calling anyone in. About 2 hours later she called me in. "Have you fasted?" "No, should I have?" "Yes" "How would I know this?" "It's on the leaflet the Doctor gave you" "The Doctor didn't give me a leaflet, but as it happens I've only had a coffee with no sugar since last night" "So you did know you should fast!" "No" "Well if you haven't fasted I can't take your blood" "So, I've wasted about four hours when I could have been at work?" "If you needed to get to work you should have gone to the Walk in Centre" "Why?" "Because they do blood tests before 9:00 am for working people" "And how would I know this?" "It's on the leaflet the Doctor gave you..." Fearing I would lose my cool.. I glared at the phlebotomist and walked out without further comment. She was sacked shortly after. I can't imagine why. Maybe it's on the leaflet the Docto... I always go to our local 'Walk In' for fasting tests now. Turn up when it opens at 07:30 and you are already behind 30-40 starving grumpy people. So even though they are fast and efficient, it can still take about an hour. But, turn up at about 08:40 after the rush and you're in an out in minutes. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 REF'...............Big bag under one eye,and smaller one under the other,visited Doc couple of weeks ago,said she'd get back to me after finding out what could be done.............she rang me this morning and told me 'nowt' could be done unless I went private for Botox.........ah well guess i'll leave it then,............she told me in a roundabout way.........''at your age Ben I wouldn't bother,you not likely to go on the pull again and if you did you would be dissapointed''...................cheeky git,even tho I know she's right.............made me laugh anyway.........just have to Soldier on with me 'mush' as it is,.............lol. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crankypig 457 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 benjamin1945 Some things that might reduce eye bags Drink plenty of water,every day Put chilled cucumber slices over closed eyes Chill 2 big spoons in the fridge,then place them on the eye bags for about ten minutes. Some celebrities use hemmoroid cream under the eyes (yuk) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jill Sparrow 10,267 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 #523 Oh, Ben! That made me cry with laughing! I told you about Germaloid cream weeks ago. Ain't you tried it yet? On the other hand, you could try some of this dangerous bagged salad...spinach leaves are potentially the worst...and contract salmonella which makes your face swell. Slightly cheaper than botox and one of your five a day as well...by which I mean portions of fruit and veg, not females!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Thanks Cranky..........big spoons in fridge as we type...................wife slicing cucumber now.............several people recommended the Hemmoroid cream and it hasn't worked yet..................good job i'm not vain int'it..............lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crankypig 457 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Or you could wear a burka 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 Yes it was you Jill who told me about the cream and believe it or not I am trying it,.......will.. give the Spinach leaves a miss......... enough problems in store with Cranky's big spoons.........lol 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, crankypig said: Or you could wear a burka Cheeky Monkey..............lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crankypig 457 Posted November 24, 2016 Report Share Posted November 24, 2016 I sometimes get a funny little twitch under one eye,optician said its not enough sleep. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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