Cartridge/stylus to play 78s?

[The Engineer 614]

My sister wants to play some old 78s on her newly purchased deck but I've warned her that she'll need a different stylus (and probably cartridge) to do this as the supplied stylus would just scrape the bottom of the 78's groove (which is about three times the width of a groove on a single/LP). She doesn't like to buy online and so far is struggling to find any local shop (around Nottingham) that can offer advice and sell her the necessary parts (I'm thinking head shell + cartridge with stylus).

Any ideas where she might enquire?

I know that audiophiles will say that there's a whole range of stylus size and shape and that there was lack of standardisation pre-war but I guess she will just be looking for a stylus that will play most 78s that she will encounter (so maybe around 2.7 to 3.0 mils).

Her deck is Audio-Technica AT-LP120 USB and has a 1/2" standard fitting for the head shell.

[Guest]

Col/Dj360 wiil fill in all the details, but a special needle is most certainly required.

[mick2me 3,033]

The first thing you need is a 78RPM turntable?

[The Engineer 614]

The turntable is 33/45/78 with + or - 20% speed control of a direct-drive motor so no problem there, but it is supplied with a stock cartridge/stylus for 33/45 single/LP records.

[Enigma. 1,533]

Audio Technica do a 78 stylus for AT91 cartidge - see link. http://www.musonic.co.uk/at91-78rpm-stylus-p-4439.html

AT91 cartridge - http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3979-audio-technica-at91-moving-magnet-cartridge.aspx

AT91 Stylus - http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3981-audio-technica-at91-stylus.aspx

[Guest]

78 stylus's are like hilti nails!

[The Engineer 614]

Thanks Enigma. I did find parts like that (though would also need a head shell to allow quick change) but as per original post, she likes to shop locally rather than online (even if it means paying more). As an alternative, I suggested she looks out for second-hand or free/recycled deck with suitable bits (though unlikely to pick up something ready-to-go with 1/2" tone arm fitting).

[Enigma. 1,533]

superfi do have a branch on market street nottingham - http://www.superfi.co.uk/branchlocatornottingham.aspx

[DJ360 6,721]

The real 78 aficionados use more than one stylus as the required profile changed over time. But that's maybe OTT for these purposes. I got a cheap Ortofon moving magnet cartridge. Something like an OM 5 I think. I then fitted it with an Ortofon 78 stylus. There lots to f possible suppliers if you get stuck.I ' m posting on my phone at present bit can five more detail tomorrow. Col

[The Engineer 614]

Thanks for extra info. Hadn't heard of Ortofon - aside of Shure and Goldring my knowledge was limited.

Another thing to consider is that old disks probably pre-date RIAA and don't know whether her amp has any preset or variable EQ. Also, if she found any really old bits, they would probably by ceramic/crystal cartridge (as opposed to magnetic) and her amp might not cope with that. I'll point her to Superfi, maybe they can explain such technicalities to her alongside the options (and costs).

[DJ360 6,721]

OK, firstly it seems that the Audio Technica has a built in 'phono equalisation' or 'phono' stage which will output either an equalised signal at line level to a standard line level input, or via a toggle switch, will output the raw signal from the cartridge to an external 'phono' stage.
It will also output a 'digitised' version of the music at a reasonable bitrate, via USB. This could be connected directly to a PC, or into a suitable USB equipped Digital to Analogue Converter (DAC)

If anyone wants an explanation of RIAA, or 'phono' equalisation and why it is needed to replay vinyl or other (E.g 78) records, just say so and I'll attempt to explain.

Here's a review from Amazon.

'By goldenears on 8 Jun. 2015
Verified Purchase
This turntable gives first class sound reproduction for you to really enjoy your music. I highly recommend it. The turntable was easy to set up. It is very well constructed and very solid. It has a number of very useful features including a USB stage, a cartridge and an internal pre-amp and RIAA equaliser. Within 30 minutes I had it fully set up and was playing Miles Davies with my feet up. My 20 year old cousin was amazed at the quality of the sound reproduction when he asked me to play some Jimi Hendrix " Live At Monterey".

If you are interested read on.

I decided to buy this turntable after reading the reviews on Amazon. It was Mikey B's review which finally convinced me. Like Mikey I have used an ION USB turntable to digitise some old records. It did a great job. I also used a Pioneer PL990 to play and digitise some more modern records. The performance of that deck also impressed me for such a low price and it worked well despite its flimsy build. I also auditioned the Pioneer PL30k but decided it sounded too much like the PL990 even though it was much better built.

I have been using turntables since the mid 1960s. My favourite deck was a Garrard SP25, bought around 1970, it was made solidly of wood and metal and had an idler wheel which drove the rim of the platter. It had plenty of rumble. This deck lasted nearly 20 years.

In the intervening period I have owned belt driven decks from Sony, JVC and Pioneer and they all sounded good. For a change I decided to try a direct drive deck. The LP 120 is based on the Technics 1200 series. The Technics is a famous deck used by radio stations until they went completely digital in the zeroes. I have not been to a discotheque for years but I bet they still use the 1200 series. You can also hear them at specialist record shops. The Technics was made mostly of metal. The LP120 is made of high quality plastic reinforced by metal: the platter and the tone arm are made of polished aluminium. The ATLP120 sounds almost as good as the Technics 1200 series and is just as well built.

The deck arrived a day before I expected it. It was well packaged and undamaged. No parts were missing and everything was unblemished. The deck is absolutely solid and weighs over 10 kg. All the controls functioned well and the design is ergonomically perfect. I tried the deck in forward and backward revolution. The stroboscope indicated that the three speeds of 331/3, 45 and 78 rpm worked perfectly. The slider controls to alter the pitch worked perfectly and sped up the turntable and slowed it down as registered by the stroboscope. The PLL or Phase Locked Loop Control button worked to bring back the turntable to the correct speed when using the sliders.

Set up was easy. However, before you use this deck, or any other for that matter, you must place it on a rock solid equipment stand or on a solid wall shelf if you have got floor boards. This is the best way to minimise vibrations coming through the floor to your speakers to affect sound adversely. A solid rack or shelf will also protect the turntable from the knocks of children or pets and from footfall when you are jiving etc. When you have placed the deck on a solid surface you must level it to help balance the tone arm and ensure correct replay. Full and easy to follow instructions are in the manual and Audio Technica have a video about how to set up the tone arm on their website. Following Mikey B's advice I checked the down force on the stylus with a gauge. The tone arm read 2gms but the gauge measured about 2.3gms. Rather than spend all afternoon fiddling around with a tone arm weight I just reset the anti-skate wheel to 2.3gms: as expected it made no difference to the sound. I did not fiddle around with the cartridge set up or the tone arm height: the music sounded great so why change something that works? When balancing the tone arm be sure not to allow the stylus to touch anything. With everything set up just right I was ready to play.

This turntable, cartridge and internal pre-amp set sounds exceptionally good when played through my Audiolab amplifier and TDL transmission line floor standing speakers. I could see no reason to set up an external phono-stage as the internal pre-amp sounded great to me - why bother with more power supplies, RCA cables and ground wires. Here is one word of warning though which does not come across clearly in the manual: Do Not connect the line outputs of either the internal pre-amp or an external pre-amp to the phono inputs of an amplifier as you risk damaging your amp or your speakers because of the extra amplification. Some amplifiers have both phono and line inputs and the cable connexions are the same size, so it is probably best to turn down the volume before you switch on and increase it slowly, just in case.

I played a selection of folk, jazz, rock and classical music. Some of the records were a bit worn. Some noteworthy records as described as follows:

A Johnny Halliday EP from the 1950s got stuck on one track but this has happened on every other deck I have had - the other three tracks were snap, crackle and pop.

A 180gm LP by Veronique Chalot -" A L'Entree Du Temps Clair" sounded just wonderful; the record really had no clicks or pops. Her voice sounded fantastic and so did the acoustic violin, double bass, bodhran, pipes and electric bazouki.

Errol Garner's "Concert By the Sea" sounded great as well; the piano tests out wow and flutter and I could hear none.

I played Supertramp's " Breakfast in America" alongside a 24/96, so called HiRes recording, the 1970's album sounded almost identical apart from a few crackles and a slightly subdued treble. Both recordings sounded enjoyable to my ears. Why bother setting up an "improved" pre-amp?

I compared the latest 180gm mono re-mastered "With The Beatles" with its 1963 counterpart and they sounded almost the same; the 1963 vinyl was preserved very well and I could hardly hear any surface noise our crackles.

The other albums that I tried were King Crimson "In the Court of the Crimson King"; Mile Davies "Blue Haze"; Spirit "Spirit In Germany": The Beatles "Revolver" ; The Beatles " Sgt Pepper"; a Nora Jones 45rpm and a Philips Recording of The New World Symphony. All of these records sounded great with no wow and flutter, humming or rumble from the deck.

I tested the USB stage by digitising a Nora Jones 45 rpm "She's 22". The digital version sounded exactly like the actual record on re-play. The AT LP120 has been criticised in some "audiophile" circles for only having 16/44.1 conversion rather than 24/96 "HiRes". This is nonsensical criticism as no-one has been proven to hear the difference between 16/44.1 and 24/96 resolution in double blind tests with all other factors being equal and at safe listening volumes. Audacity is great digitising software once you get to learn it but it is a trifle unwieldy: however, it can really help to reduce surface noise if not eliminate it completely. This turntable is built strongly so it should last really well if you are going to digitise hundreds of records.

The AT 95E cartridge which is supplied comes with an elliptical stylus. I fancy that this type of stylus helps to reduce surface noise and it improves the treble response when compared to a spherical or conical stylus - I can't prove this from blind testing and this is just my opinion. Hundreds of thousands of these cartridges have been sold so we all benefit from the reduced cost from economies of scale. This is a high quality cartridge which is often re-badged and bundled with a better stylus and then sold for a lot more money.

If you read some of the forums the ATLP120 comes in for a lot of criticism regarding the fitted pre-amp; some people suggest that it should be ripped out and replaced. My advice would be to wait before you use the wire cutters and soldering iron. The critics are expressing opinions and not facts derived from measurements or double blind testing. Some people are never satisfied and will tinker and tweak for ever. The internal pre-amp performs extremely well in my opinion and you can prove this for yourself by listening and comparing for yourself. Why invalidate the warranty or reduce the resale value by ripping out the pre-amp?

The only tweaking I did was to replace the felt mat with a rubber one not because it improved the sound but because the felt mat gets stuck to the records. I shall not become a DJ so the slip mat is not necessary.

I do not have any 78 rpm record but I have no reason to believe that this turntable will not play one well. You need to change the needle, however. The wrong type of needle will damage 78rpm records.

In conclusion,this is a wonderful, strong, well built, turntable with lots of features to get you going immediately without a pre-amp in your receiver and with the facility to digitise your records. It looks great sitting on top of my equipment rack and it dominates the amplifier and CD player. You get all this for 250 quid and it is a real bargain. It is a great talking point and gets young people interested in sitting down and listening to music without ear buds and talking about it. Most importantly, it sounds wonderful and I would give it six stars if I could - so go for it.

Post script 10 June 2015:

I could not resist setting up an exterior pre-amp with RIAA equalisation. This worked well but did not improve upon the sound of the internal pre-amp as far as I could hear. However, I heard none of the humming or feedback that some people claim. You do not need to earth or ground the deck to the pre-amp as the turntable is not subject to ground loop noise interference. I shall stick to using the internal pre-amp as this way there are fewer wires and boxes to link up.

The turntable defaults to 33 rpm when you switch it on. I, therefore, digitised a whole 45rpm record before I realised this.

I levelled the table using a spirit level and some vinyl coasters, from Head records, under the rubber feet; a rather neat and apt solution. I preferred this method to adjusting the rubber feet as it was quicker and easier.

The tone arm rests snugly in the arm rest. I shall only use the rather flimsy clip when I move the deck. To avoid damage I shall always use the stylus guard. The deck is heavy and solid and it is placed on a rock solid equipment rack so it is unlikely to get dislodged even if the cat jumps on the table - lid down of course.

Despite what looks like "poor" statistics for wow and flutter and the signal to noise ratio ( less than 0.2 % and greater than 50 db respectively which are figures that an "audiophile" would traduce), I cannot hear any pitch variation even with piano music neither can I hear any turntable rumble at the volumes that I play at, which is up to 80 db at my ears.

If you listen through headphones you will hear surface noise from the record and other flaws associated with vinyl which no deck can correct. I recommend CD's if you want to listen to music by headphones, especially classical music.'

I will disagree with the reviewer on two points:

1. If the deck is supplied with a felt mat it is in good company. Felt is used on many high quality decks including the UK built Linn,Roksan, Rega and other ranges. Don't change it for rubber. If you have an issue with the records attaching themselves to the record via static, you may well reduce the effect by using a carbon fibre record brush to remove surface dust and static from the record before playing. Put the record on, switch on and allow the brush to lightly sit across the grooves for a few revolutions before carefully moving it to the edge of the record and off, to avoid a 'dust line'. This is sometimes more effective if you hold the brush in one hand while touching an earthed metal component with the other. If you still have trouble, just use a few equally sized and evenly spaced bits of double sided tape to stick the felt mat to the platter.


2. Record surface noise via headphones. There is always going to be some, but much depends on the quality of the pressing, the condition of the record, the cartridge (condition and 'set up') etc. I frequently listen to both jazz and classical on vinyl and am not seriously put off by surface noise. This even applies to the very first records I bought 50+ years ago. Whatever, you can be certain there will be more noise from 78s. They are mostly made fro ground slate bonded with shellac. Not exactly a quiet substance. Some later 50s ones were made of the same sort of vinyl plastic used for LPs and 45s. These are often seen on the Pye, Nixa and Emarcy labels.

I have hundreds of 78s ranging from the 1920s to the late 1950s. To be frank, absolute sound quality on 1950s pop/R&R recordings is better from vinyl 45s or LPs, but the 78s are still sought after by a diminishing band of collectors. I've got a few by the likes of Elvis, Eddy Cochrane etc., that are worth around £50-70. 'Mess of the Blues'.. the last issue on 78 in the UK by Elvis is reputedly worth £1500+ for a mint example.

As for cartridges/styli.

There are many, many cartridge and stylus manufacturers in the UK and abroad. I have no idea which of them make 78 stylii, except for Ortofon and UK firm Rega. The Rega'78, is a fine cartridge bu doesn't have a replaceable stylus, so when it's won out you just bin it and buy a new one.

I appreciate your Sis doesn' like buying online, but this chap has a good reputation:

Ian Harrison Hi Fi
7 Mill Hill
Repton
Derby
DE65 6GQ

Tel: 01283 702875

e: ian.harrison@mercian.myzen.co.uk

Superfi have this and others:

http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-4001-ortofon-stylus-78.aspx

Must say I paid about £30 for my Ortofon, but it was a few years back and the dealer (Doug Brady Hi-Fi Warrington) threw in an OM5 Cartridge he had lying about....

Col

[DJ360 6,721]

Also:

http://www.stylusplus.co.uk/

Col

[DJ360 6,721]

Just out of interest and while we're on the subject. Below is a pic of a Japanese Dynavector Karat 17D2MkII cartridge. You definitely would not use this to play your 78s.

I have one which I purchased around year 2000. I got it 'cheap' for £300, as I knew the importer. £500 was the retail at the time. This is a very high quality 'Moving Coil' cartridge. (Ask... ) But was only 'mid priced' even then. There are lunatics who spend £5k or more on a cartridge. Usually it's a Moving Coil Cartridge, which means the stylus can't be replaced without completely rebuilding the cartridge....

But what really amazes me is the 'cantilever' As most will know the 'needle or stylus' in a cartridge is usually stuck onto the end of what looks like a thin aluminium tube, maybe 5-7 mm long. With this thing, the diamond stylus is fixed on the end of a solid rod of diamond 1.7 mm long!! I can barely see it. See the black thing near the bottom? If you look very closely, you may see the stylus and cantilever just below... If not, imagine something aboout the size of the 'cross' on a t on this page on a 19" screen..

The idea is that diamond doesn't flex much, so under the forces of tracing a record, the cantilever, being solid diamond, doesn't bend so much and therefore holds the actual stylus in relation to the groove without the 'lost motion' you'd get from lesser, more bendy materials. Thus sounding better..

How cool is that?

Col