Nut Yard - Bobbers Mill & Whitemoor

[Dark Angel 138]

 Cliff Ton, is there any possibility your map could be marked incorrectly?

Looking  at the photograph there is a fence running parallel to the end of the signal box which I took to be the boundary fencing for the colliery line, in which case the signal box has to be West of the line. The blunt end of the box is up to this boundary, thus enabling the signalman good visual access to the colliery line.

Whilst  signal boxes were moved, I cannot see any logical reason for this to happen here.

Sadly, I cannot find any information as to when this line ceased to be used. It is shown intact on the 1899 map.

Although Thomas North built 28 miles of private railway line, for some inexplicable reason this crossing and the wharf were sometimes known as Seely's crossing and wharf. Sir Charles Seely and his son acquired Newcastle and other pits in 1875. As North built the entire system why was it not named after him? Maybe there is a bit of history I am missing? Officially, the wharf was Babbington Wharf and the signal box Babbington Crossing, erected to work Newcastle Sidings. There being another sidings with the Babbington name.

Newcastle colliery ceased production in 1928. Coincidence the whole area was about to be developed?

However, I have digressed enough.

if your map is correct, then I am wrong. 

It would have been a short bike ride to work using footpaths.

 

 

I tried to post this 24 hours ago without success. Kept going around in circles. Got fed up looking at photos with traffic lights and zebra crossings on them. Keeps telling me my e mail address belongs to someone else.

 

 

Here we go again! Same as last night!  

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

12 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

 Cliff Ton, is there any possibility your map could be marked incorrectly?

 

It would mean OS were wrong when they originally mapped the area...and the never corrected their error !

 

On the Old Maps site, there are 6 maps showing the mineral line, and in all cases the signal box is west of the mineral line (and north of the main line). The mineral line disappears when Western Boulevard was built in the 1920s, and then the signal box is always east of Western Blvd.

 

This shows just after Western Blvd was built and the signal box is visible.

[Alpha 176]

I've this photo link - https://picturenottingham.co.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/NTGM004737/posterid/NTGM004737.html which might assist, if you do not have access to it.

 

As usual MS Windows photo apps and this site cannot copy or paste photos for some obscure reason.

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

That's interesting, because the signal box in that link could be the same one in DJ360's photo on page 2 of this thread.

 

(I know they had standard designs, but those two are clearly the same design).

[Dark Angel 138]

Cliff Ton.....DJ360.....This is the first time I have been on a site like this. I apologise if my posting etiquette isn't quite right, as I don't really know what I am doing.

  I came across DJ360's photograph by accident whilst looking for something else. Somewhere in the depths of my brain a candle lit in a far distant corner, an area unused for a while.

 Think I know where that is.

 Looking at the photograph, I initially thought I recognised the location. To the right of the signal box there is a straight pale line which I took to be the colliery line.

 Cliff Ton, this is where I need to apologise: you gave me a massive clue which I didn't pick up.

     First mistake: having identified the location, I failed to identify the signal box correctly.

     Second mistake: looking at old maps showing the signal box West of the colliery line, my brain locked this signal box into this location and I dismissed the pale line on the photograph and of used on the fencing!

     Third mistake: Cliff Ton gave me a massive clue when he stated that the signal box was moved sometime between 1900 and 1910. This clue sailed over my head! The signal box wasn't moved. It was replaced by a new one. This explains why it moved East of the colliery line: the new one had to be built before the old one was decommissioned.

   I completely missed the plot. I should have realised the signal box in the photograph was a turn of the century one, not one from the 1870's. This type of signal box replaced older, smaller signal boxes throughout this period.

  Cliff Ton couldn't have given me a better clue. Sadly it missed the target.

    Fourth mistake: at least I had a bit of help with this one, as I wrongly believed Western Boulevard was built over the colliery line, this information being gleaned from reading two separate articles relating to the road being built. Quite clearly this was not the case.

    Cliff Ton produces an aerial photograph of the new bridge showing the signal box to the East of it.

    This is where he hits me at the back of the head with a piece of wood.

     A refulgent light surrounds me and I realise my stupidity. Actually, I've always known this, but Cliff Ton highlighted it. This is when I cotton on as to what has transpired with this signal box. Also, the realisation that the colliery line is not under the new road, but quite clearly still there.

    I should have spotted this looking at the maps and seeing where the new road joined Wollaton Road. 

   On a modern map, Marchwood Close appears to be built on the colliery line, with the school being built where Wharf Cottages stood.

    Returning to the aerial photograph, you can see the line of the spur to Newcastle Sidings as a faint line curved below trees or shrubs to the east of the bridge.

    I cannot believe I made such a school boy error: looking at a photograph of a signal box built after the map was printed and not realising.

    Am really annoyed with myself.

 

  Addendum: Alpha weighs in with a cracking photograph; clearly showing the colliery line still in place alongside the signal box.

 

  As the saying goes: close, but no cigar!

 

[Alpha 176]

 

Dark Angel et al,

 

I am unable to copy images here including Google earth for some obscure reason. However, if you look at Google earth or similar historical images you will find existing evidence of the continuation of the mineral line as it continues south from Melbourne park.

 

Just north of Holbeck Road at the bottom left of the old Player's Sports ground the gravel track bed of the line is visible. This line as you have now correctly stated did run approximately 80m east, parallel with the route of Western Boulevard.

 

In the attached link, https://picturenottingham.co.uk/image-library/image-details/poster/ntgm014934/posterid/ntgm014934.html, appears the new Western Boulevard road bridge taken from the approximate position of the Babbington mineral line crossing. Vane St. cottages appear in the distance, I believe.

 

 

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

13 hours ago, Dark Angel said:

Cliff Ton.....DJ360.....This is the first time I have been on a site like this. I apologise if my posting etiquette isn't quite right, as I don't really know what I am doing.

 

You certainly don't need to apologise for etiquette (and that might be the first time the word has appeared in Nottstalgia).

 

You've generated a number of posts on the subject and produced new information. A lot of people browse this site without diving in and actually saying anything, so even if they could contribute something, they don't bother. It's nice to have someone who was passing by and decided to actually contribute something.

[DJ360 6,721]

I am very grateful for all contributions to solving the location of mystery signal box. 

 

[Dark Angel 138]

Alpha....as I wrongly believed the colliery line to be under Western Boulevard, I didn't look at Google or any other modern maps. You are right: knowing what to look for, the former route can be traced all the way to Wollaton Road. It actually ran to the rear of the houses on Marchwood Close.

 

Cliff Ton..... Thank you for your encouraging comments.

 

Dj360.....reading page 1 of this thread, I came across a comment by you: "reading pernicious literature." A candle flame flickered in the recess of my memory. Some years ago I read an account about a death on the railway in 1909 at Radford. The railways didn't recognise suicides and trespass as railway accidents, consequently to glean any information it is usually down to reading newspaper reports of the coroners inquest.

      Am unable to access the link DavidW posted, so I am not sure if this is the same incident.

      The lad was a seventeen year old employed as a chemists assistant. His body was found South of Bobbers Mill crossing. The driver of an early morning down parcels out of Nottingham alerted the signalman at Bobbers Mill of a body on the line. My recollection is that both driver and signalman went to check out the sighting. It intrigued me as there seemed more questions than answers.

     Comments on this thread seem to reflect the incident to have happened on the crossing, whereas the report I read had the incident happening in the vicinity of Radford sidings. They may be two different incidents, but your great grandfather did give evidence at this inquiry.

[DJ360 6,721]

I have been meaning to transcribe that article since David posted the link, as it is a very old clipping and not easy to read. I shall endeavour to do so today.  The article makes clear that the body was found some distance from Bobber's Mill Crossing and that it appeared the young man had crossed, or accessed the line by some 'unofficial' route.

 

Here it is.  From the Derby Daily Telegraph, 16.09.1909.

 

The original.

 

 

And my transcription.

 

Quote

Midland Railway Mystery.

_____

 

The Inquest Adjourned.

 

The coroner’s enquiry into the circumstances of the shocking fatality on the Midland Railway near Bobber’s Mill crossing was opened at Hyson Green Police Station on Wednesday evening by Mr C.L. Rothera. The deceased was a youth of 17 years named Fred Cuthbert, or 72 Randall street, whose body was discovered on the line early on Tuesday morning, the legs having been severed from the body by a passing train. The proceedings were watched by Inspector A.S. Knibbs on behalf of the railway company.

Sarah Ann Cuthbert, mother of the deceased, said her son was a chemist’s assistant employed by Mr Cundy, of Shakespeare street. He had worked there for a yearand was in no business trouble, having borne a very good character. Deceased was on good terms with those at home, but he generally went out in the evening with a friend who lived at Aspley, or somewhere in that district. Witness did not know the young man and had been unable to trace him. Deceased had not been in the habit of reading pernicious literature and was of a cheerful, though quiet disposition. Witnesses knew of absolutely nothing likely to induce him to take his own life.. He went out on Monday evening and was not seen again alive.

Edward Barker, a Midland engine driver, said he was in charge of the 5:30 train from Nottingham to Cresswell on Tuesday morning and as he was approaching the Bobber’s Mill crossing he met a train coming in the opposite direction and the driver signalled to him that he had noticed a body lying on the rails upon which witnesses train was proceeding. Witness stopped his own train immediately and on investigating matters saw that the body of the deceased was lying on the track some distance ahead. The legs had been cut clean off near the trunk by a previous train, and witness saw that the rails were clean and free from bloodstains, indicating that several trains had passed over them in the darkness. Witness informed the signalman at the crossing box, and passed on with his train.

John Whyman, the signalman, spoke to visiting the body and finding the trunk lying between the metals and the legs outside. The corpse was quite cold. Between ten o’clock and six in the morning seven trains passed on the metals across which the body lay. There was no path or crossing near the spot and to reach it from the road he would have to climb a fence.

Replying to the Foreman, witness said he had occasionally seen people cross the metals.

The Coroner said there was at present no more evidence to call, but he certainly did not like to leave the case in such an incomplete state. It seemed very strange that a young fellow of good repute should be found in so remarkable a position and in such a condition. Mr Rothera certainly thought it worthwhile to make further enquiries and suggested an adjournment.

 

Intriguing that the case was adjourned.. so that there is very probably further information somewhere concerning the final verdict.  'Misadventure' wouldn't surprise me.. though it seems very unlikely that young Fred and his mysterious friend spent the previous evening totally unseen by anyone.

 

[DJ360 6,721]

Here is a current section of Google Maps of the area in which poor Fred seems to have met his demise.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Randal+St,+Nottingham/@52.9681547,-1.1934994,1681m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4879c192dd4f6dc3:0x6dec6cf50ed6713b!8m2!3d52.9666643!4d-1.1748556

 

Aspley is more or less west of Bobber's Mill and there is a Randal Street more or less due east of Bobber's Mill, though the housing on it looks modern.  However, if it's the same place as the Randal Street where young Fred lived.. it seems odd that he would not just use the crossing at Bobber's Mill to get from Aspley to home.

 

 

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

I'm always amazed by the language used in old newspapers.

 

Some of that accident report is definitely not for the squeamish; they seemed to go out of their way to be blunt, bloodthirsty and garish.

[DJ360 6,721]

I don't see it that way.  The discusion of blood on the rails, or the absence thereof.. seems to me to be evidence, pointing to likely timings of events, against the known number of trains etc.  A bit gory, but necessary for the enquiry I'd say.

[DJ360 6,721]

On 7/2/2019 at 10:24 AM, Cliff Ton said:

Living at Clifton I remember the 53 service because its route seemed quite exotic and unusual.  All the other services went straight from Clifton to the city centre, but the 53 went all the way round the ring road to Arnold. It was like visiting another world.

 

I can see that Kev.  I went to Clifton via the tram from Boowul a couple of years ago.. just exploring.  It was the first time I'd ever been to Clifton in my life and it seemed like another world to me...  Clifton as I recall from that one visit was spacious and basically flat, whereas the north side of the city away from the Trent flood plain is much more hilly.

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

31 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Clifton as I recall from that one visit was spacious and basically flat, 

 

I'd never thought of it like that before, but you're right. I think there's a slight upward slope, from the city end going southwards. But it's definitely spacious because it was designed and built in the late 40s-early 50s when houses weren't crammed in the way they are now.

 

If the Clifton site was being developed for the first time now, there'd be twice as many houses in the area as were built back then.

[Brew 5,408]

When Clifton was built there were strict standards on room numbers and sizes etc. Each house was supposed to have a reasonable sized garden to encourage vegetable growing.

[Dark Angel 138]

DJ360...thank you for transcribing the newspaper article re the inquest of the young lad. Whilst I was referring to the same incident, the article I read contained more information. Am obviously unable to remember verbatim what was in the paper but I do know there were a few unknowns. Not being a medical person, maybe someone on here can give guidance on this: I have no knowledge of how thorough an autopsy would have been in 1909, but I did wonder of the possibility that the lad was already dead when the train ran over him. He was found lying on his back, with one witness saying he looked as if he was asleep. I may be wrong on this but if he was already dead before the train had contact with him, then his blood would have seeped out of his body, whereas it would have gushed out if his heart had still been pumping. I may have miss understood the comment about blood on the rail, but I took it to mean there was a lack of blood on the rail body, not the rail head, which would have been cleaned by subsequent trains running over it.

   I am not suggesting foul play, but the possibility he had a congenital heart condition which caused him to collapse where he did.

   If I remember correctly, the body was in good order, ie not being catapulted into that position by another train. This leaves two alternatives: he either laid down deliberately or collapsed/fell into that position.

 

   A police officer also gave evidence that despite exhaustive enquiries, they could neither trace the person he was meant to be meeting that night or anyone who knew of him. Nor could they trace anyone having seen him on that fateful night.

[LizzieM 9,507]

Dark Angel, this is the first time I’ve read this thread and it must make difficult reading for you.   One thing that struck me though is that The Coroner was a Mr Rothera.  The Rotheras seem to have been appointed   District Coroners regularly in the past century, wonder how and why?  

[Brew 5,408]

I noticed that too...

[FLY2 10,108]

The Rothera family have been in the legal profession since the mid 19th century. Look up 'History of Rothera Sharp, Solicitors'.  Fascinating stuff.

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

I worked for Rotheras, solicitors, when they were sited on Friar Lane. One of the partners at that time was Ian Rothera. His father was then semi retired and a consultant. Both were involved with the office of coroner.  

[jonab 1,644]

Ian Rothera was a friend of my cousin, John Griffin (designer).

[nonnaB 4,894]

Rotheras were our solicitors at one time, think at that time they were on Friar lane.

[DJ360 6,721]

On 8/28/2019 at 11:34 PM, FLY2 said:

The Rothera family have been in the legal profession since the mid 19th century. Look up 'History of Rothera Sharp, Solicitors'.  Fascinating stuff.

 

Rothera Dowson handled my Mum's 'estate'.

[IAN FINN 807]

Was Dalglieshs an oxy acetylene company near Bobbers Mill?I remember changing oxygen cylinders there in the 60s..