letsavagoo 956 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 I’ve really got to take issue with that Col. I’d concede to abused and discriminated against by society but routinely killed here by the police? Really. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Just poor wording on my part. So BAME subjects may not be 'routinely' killed by police here.. but there remain far too many cases which have occurred and been basically 'glossed over'. The list below includes ALL killings by Police.. most of which are clearly lawful, but significant numbers are dubious to say the least and it remains the case that even where the subject was engaged in unlawful or criminal activity, the death penallty did not apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom This also worth a read: https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AfferGorritt 868 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Let’s not also forget that it was black West Africans who sold their fellow countrymen to the white slave traders. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Whataboutery Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fogrider 179 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 With references to the Police, is there, or should there be, some sort of acknowledgement of Athelstan Popkess ? Not a national hero, but a major player in Policing in Nottingham , brought the City Force up to date and, for me, ex fire brigade in the City, I'm well aware of the extensive measures he introduced to protect the City and its' citizens during WW2 from the effects of bombing and fires. It's a long time since I've been in the Cities museums, perhaps he's already recognised, if not, he must be worth some sort of representation ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,378 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: Whataboutery It is whataboutery but none the less a valid point. Why are there no protest about black slave traders if not for inverse racism? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AfferGorritt 868 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Brew said: Whataboutery What’s good for the goose ....You can’t cherry pick history to make your own argument valid. It happened. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AfferGorritt 868 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, DJ360 said: Whataboutery I’ve been sitting here gradually coming to a simmer! You’ve really gone down in my estimation, Col. I didn’t think someone who professes to be a fair “debater” would stoop to a such a smug, glib, one-word dismissal of someone else’s point of view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 956 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 hours ago, DJ360 said: Just poor wording on my part. So BAME subjects may not be 'routinely' killed by police here.. but there remain far too many cases which have occurred and been basically 'glossed over'. The list below includes ALL killings by Police.. most of which are clearly lawful, but significant numbers are dubious to say the least and it remains the case that even where the subject was engaged in unlawful or criminal activity, the death penallty did not apply. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_Kingdom This also worth a read: https://fullfact.org/law/bame-deaths-police-uk/ The fact that someone is engaged in unlawful conduct is obviously not a green light to kill someone during their lawful apprehension. If we’re reading the same list Col I can’t agree with ‘significant numbers being dubious’ at all. I’m seeing significant numbers which seem perfectly understandable and justified. The dubious cases being the minority by far. All are tragic. It’s easy to stand back in the cold light of day but I’ve personally been involved in violent arrests. It’s a very different scenario first hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
alan s 156 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 On 6/10/2020 at 11:05 AM, radfordred said: When we’ve finished pulling statues down, maybe we could burn some books? They’re pulling Fatty Owls now. world’s gone mad! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 6 hours ago, letsavagoo said: The dubious cases being the minority by far. All are tragic. It’s easy to stand back in the cold light of day but I’ve personally been involved in violent arrests. It’s a very different scenario first hand. There are several in the first table, mostly asphyxiations, which seem dubious to me. And yes, the dubious cases are in the minority. I said that first off. But still too many in my view. Furher down the list are a number of black women who died during Police action. It is very rare for anyone to be found wanting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 7 hours ago, AfferGorritt said: I’ve been sitting here gradually coming to a simmer! You’ve really gone down in my estimation, Col. I didn’t think someone who professes to be a fair “debater” would stoop to a such a smug, glib, one-word dismissal of someone else’s point of view. OK. It was a bit glib. It was the result of frustration. see below. Please accept my apologies. What I should have said was that yes.. we can find plenty of examples of slavery in the past, but we then stray dangerously close to two, or more, wrongs making a right. The fact that somebody (though I always thought it was Arabs) was rounding up Africans and selling them to European Slavers, does not in any way absolve the Europeans who engaged in the trade, and especially so when we recall that the default European position was that 'we' were 'civilised', c.f. the 'savages' in most of the rest of the World. Part of the reason for my glibness (in truth it was impatience) was having read an endless stream of Facebook stuff wherein people were coming up with all manner of historical evidence that amounts to 'We weren't the only ones at it'. That may be so, but if I tried the same defence in a murder case, or even a Traffic Offence, I would, quite rightly get short shrift. We engaged in the forced exploitation of fellow human beings, for profit. I have already agreed that there is room for debate about what we do with statues/street names etc., and that just erasing it all may not be the best way forward. More than one Black scholar has said as much in the last couple of days. I have no answer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Some more thoughts.. aimed at nobody specific. Nottm. has a significant non-white population which was certainly present when I was young, in the 1950's. It follows that many of Nottm's black residents are also, by birth, British. There are also notable black residents, including Bendigo the boxer, and others dating back much earlier. I wonder how many members on here are from BAME backgrounds? I just read a refreshing piece of Facebook detailing how Nottm has statues ( to Morley) and others who opposed slavery. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 More thoughts. My 'prospective' Son in Law is black Carribean. He's a quiet, calm and quite religious chap.. in stark contrast to my daughter who is almost the polar opposite.. but I digress.. He's a hard working lad. A 'key worker' deivery driver throughout this whole Pandemic. Keeping people supplied and fed. He plays piano and makes music. He is also ex British Army and has served in Afghanistan. A significantly better record than those of Gobshites (no apology for using the term) such as Farage and Yaxley-Lennon.. who have, in typical fashion, homed in on the current debate to propagate their lies, distortions and hate. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,378 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 William Thompson (Bendigo), was black?... As you say two wrongs don't make a right but I think the point is to raise awareness of the hypocrisy and hidden agenda of some protesters. Both Arab and native Africans indulged in the trade and had done so for centuries but I don't think anyone is suggesting it absolves participants - nor do I think the mores of the day have any relevance. They were, in their customs and practice, doing no wrong. As you say 'everybody was doing it is no defence', but at the time it was not a crime and nunc pro tunc does not apply. I for one will not apologies for crimes my ancestors committed no matter how terrible. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 9 minutes ago, Brew said: William Thompson (Bendigo), was black?... I did say I'm not on great form lately when it comes to debate. Apologies.. I don't know where I got that from. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,712 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 27 minutes ago, Brew said: hypocrisy and hidden agenda of some protesters. I'm aware some protesters aren't exactly smart.. though I do think they mostly genuinely feel a sense of grievance which I agree with. Quite what hypocrisy and hidden agenda you refer to needs spelling out I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HSR 286 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 On 4/6/2016 at 9:00 PM, Deepdene Boy said: Bendigo is long overdue for a statue Agreed, should have two! what happened to the one on the pub? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonab 1,644 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 I have vague memories of a statue of (or at least a memorial to) Bendigo in a park near Huntingdon St bus station. Was Bendigo black? I don't think so. On the subject of respected black people in Nottingham (or more precisely Hucknall) Dr Wallen should be borne in mind. He was a G P with a practice at the top of Duke Street - opposite Beardall Street school. He was very well liked by his many patients. I can't vouch for the veracity of this next bit but I understand that, as well as being a medic, he was an actor who stood in for Paul Robeson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robeson in several films. Looking at the Wiki entry for Robeson, I can see the resemblance between the two. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HSR 286 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 That's where Bendigo's buried, a very weathered Lion Tomb., even the last time I visited..in 1996..St Mary's burial ground number 4 on Bath St. Introduces a question, if I remember correctly the Bath St Burial ground closed roughly 1904, what replaced it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TrevA 4 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 There is, or was, a statue of Bendigo on the roof of the pub named after him on Sneinton Hermitage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
benjamin1945 16,118 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 On 3/23/2016 at 12:51 PM, benjamin1945 said: Every 100 yards Canal-side of London road from Trent Bridge to Station street ,..........Footballer- Cricketer statues,something like........... Tommy Lawton............Reg Simpson...........Jack Burkett...........Harold Larwood............Bob Mckinaly............Derik Randall..................Joe Baker........... Reckon it would look really good..........and a lasting tribute to Nottinghams great sporting past.........and hopefully future.................... Still think the above would look good,,,perhaps include famous Actors and writers,,instead of all sporting people,,........what a great welcome they would be,,coming into our fair city down London road........make Nottingham a happy place..... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
radfordred 6,284 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 @TrevA The pubs still standing along with Bendigo's statue (for now ) it was an Indian takeaway come restaurant could have been called Norr or Noor, but last time I past was derelict? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HSR 286 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, TrevA said: There is, or was, a statue of Bendigo on the roof of the pub named after him on Sneinton Hermitage. Hi Trev, that statues gone, renamed the Pub & removed the statue.. Only know this through Google earth... Do you remember Doctor Killinski's, Boots and the Police Station, think there was also three churches on the that tiny Hermitage.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,378 Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 A processional way along London Rd is an excellent idea Ben. It's wide enough and quite straight so statues of the great and good of the city could be quite impressive 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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