You Couldn't Make this Up !


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I volunteer as a community ambulance car driver and recently picked up a lady to take her to a hospital appointment. I greeted her with "hello sweetheart, going to the eye clinic are we?" "Tut tut" so

For any youngster reading this.   If you want a great education free and are prepared to work hard join HM forces as an officer.   My friends grandson went to what is now known as

9 hours ago, Compo said:

On the news yesterday it said that students should all have access to mental health support to help them cope under pressure.  What the feck are they doing at Uni in the first place if they don't like the pressure of study?!

 

It's not just the pressure of study, though any graduate or those with kids at uni will know how difficult that can be. These days there's a huge increase in pressure because of financial burden and the demands that brings. I remember a mate (very bright) back in 1973, dropping out after his first year at university when it wasn't uncommon...way too hard - but no worries, lost nothing, I'll just get a job. Contrast this with a pal of my son's ( very, very bright ) who's recently given up, failed his second year twice but still has debt of over £40k!!

 

It's acknowledged in very recent times that a support system is needed for those who may need it. Not mamby-pamby, they're paying an absolute fortune for it!

 

As regards the idea of wrist-bands for freshers, it might sound daft but so what! Students will either wear them or not, their choice. Who gives a sh!t.

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There has been an awful lot of pressure for kids to go to Uni ......trouble is an awful lot of them shouldn't be there they aren't good enough.

 

There should be good craft training for more people, no debt and earn while you learn and end up well paid, sometimes in excess of what graduates earn.

 

God knows what these kids are going to do if they can't handle the 'pressure' of Uni when they get out into the real world, I like the new term 'Snowflake' for the delicate little darlings.

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Thank Goodness we haven't got a massive war on, or some of these youngsters would capitulate to the likes of Luxembourg, Malta or even Belgium. Lord help us.

How would they survive in the jungles of Burma, Omaha Beach or the Western Front. They'd most likely need counselling because their uniforms made them itch !

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Catfan, students are entitled to a social life same as anyone else, or is it reasonable for them to have to pay £9k + around £5k for accomodation per year.

 

If a person has a physical problem then medical care is available but a psychological one makes them a 'snowflake'?

 

Fly, you may be right about the fortitude of modern youth but you're only  guessing. Didn't they shoot 'snowflakes' in WW1 for cowardice. Hopefully we've learned things since , maybe not....

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I think NBL hit the nail on the head.  Some just shouldn't be in university in the first place.  A lot of undergrad degrees are just about worthless today.  England was once noted for good craft training.  Apprenticeship would be much better for some.  I know it served me well.  I chose college later when I had a definite direction for the degree I wanted.

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I studied with the Open University starting in the early 1980s for 5 years, gaining a BA Hons. I paid the fees myself and worked full time throughout, studying in the evenings and at weekends, attending lectures and taking my exams at Nottingham University in Highfields. It took tremendous self discipline but I managed it. Going on to a full time post graduate teaching qualification afterwards seemed easy by comparison. I admit, I'm a lazy little bu99er. It was better for me to work while I was studying because my level of motivation was higher that way. Couldn't do it now. Usually fall asleep when I get home at night! ;)

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Then there are the "Mickey Mouse" degrees, Like the degree in the Beatles  smile2

 

I have the utmost admiration for anyone getting off their arse & doing it.

But an entitlement to a social life ? I would never get in to debt for a social life. Many a time working hard & bringing up a family I couldn't afford to go out or have an holiday.

We've had the "blame" culture now it's the I'm "entitled" culture.

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Don't forget their right to a 'Gap Year'.  Your right CF...... Get them of their ar5es, and get working. 

And as for the ones who get their qualifications then bu66er off to Africa, well ! They leave me totally speechless.

We need people qualified in civil engineering, construction, and then filtering downwards, brickies, carpenters and a host of other practical skills. 

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Degree in the Beatles, been googling mickey mouse degrees?

 

Catfan, students don't get in debt for their social life, I presume you know how the student loan system works. They pay it back over decades, they've even hiked the interest rate recently too.

 

Don't start me on folk who put themselves out to study. I did my BSc Hons at the OU whilst bringing up a young family and working 60 hours plus a week running a very substamtial business. I d'ont say look at me, I can do it, I understand the practical difficulties, I've employed many youngsters who've had to work and are studying at the same time.

 

Get them on apprenticeships instead of mickey mouse degrees? Couldn't agree more. But when you go for your next visit to QMC do you want the person treating you to be training on one? Do you want your kids setting out in life being taught by a teacher who's learning on the job?   

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30 minutes ago, TBI said:

Degree in the Beatles, been googling mickey mouse degrees?

 

No, not at all, "Mickey Mouse" degrees are well known these days, boosting the numbers,bums on seats etc.

 quoted the Beatles degree course on the forum in the past.

Again, my utmost admiration & respect to anyone who got their degree by hard graft. FWIW I believe thatuniversity education should be free to everyone with no tuition charges.

But a right to a social life, no, get off their arse & work for it.

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'Degree in 'The Beatles.'

 

It was I who mentioned this in a thread about Careers.  There is not and never was a 'Degree in the Beatles'..  There was a media reported example where 'The Beatles'  ( Their impact on popular music and culture etc.) were one subject area within a degree in 'Popular Music and Culture' or somesuch.  as valid as any area of intellectual endeavour in my view.  Here is my original post.  It also includes my view on the situation re: Higher Education v 'Apprentice/Craft Training, which , if anything, has got worse since 2015.

 

Quote

 

DJ360 2015.

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Can't agree I'm afraid. The present lot have done loads to discourage applications to uni, by pushing up fees etc. But, they have done nothing whatever to boost training for employment straight from school. (Don't believe their lies about apprenticeships.. they've just renamed existing training and lowered the bar)

They've also decimated 'Further Education' (Or Non Advanced Further Ed as it should be called)

Which leaves the brightest kids with little alternative but to go to uni if they want a hope of a decent job.

If you want to reduce numbers at uni, you have to provide a viable alternative for bright people. It barely exists at present.

They've also all but destroyed my profession, so that kids have little or no help and advice anymore... but that's another story.... which I'm leading up to elsewhere in this thread.

As for 'Daft Courses'. It's an old complaint, but mostly doesn't hold up when you read past the media blather.

The fact is that any number of jobs can be accessed by people with 'any degree'. The value of a degree except for obvious specialisms like Technical/Medical/Scientific etc., lies in the intellectual challenge it presents and how the student meets it. IOW, it's a demonstration of intellectual capacity, application, independence of thought, reasoning, etc., etc.

My degree is in Politics. It was mostly about critical anlysis of the works of political theorists throughout history from Plato to Tom Payne, plus a fair smattering of sociological theory, psychology, economics etc. Nothing directly to do with Careers Guidance, but it got me onto the post grad course I needed. That's how it works for many jobs.

When that Newt-brained little idiot Gove took over education he set about pulling funding for Arts Design and Media courses, which he saw as useless. The moron clearly didn't understand that this country is now a world leader in those fields. Our Fashion industry alone brings in almost £30 Billion per year.

 
 

One of my daughters is a Fashion Designer.

Even if you take things like alleged Degrees in 'the Beatles', or whatever, closer examination usually shows that 'The Beatles' is a possible specialism within a broader degree. And given the massive and continuing influence of the Beatles on popular culture, I'd say it's a worthwhile topic for intellectual examination.

Dominic Sandbrook's current BBC2 series 'Let Us Entertain You', is a fascinating insight into the Worldwide success (and value) of British popular culture. I don't agree with every word he says, but a good watch nonetheless.

We don't need fewer uni places, we need more employment opportunities. And they won't come while the Govt.persists with austerity and generally deflationary policies which are stifling growth.

Just sayin' ;)

Col

 

 

Col

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12 hours ago, loppylugs said:

I think NBL hit the nail on the head.  Some just shouldn't be in university in the first place.  A lot of undergrad degrees are just about worthless today.  England was once noted for good craft training.  Apprenticeship would be much better for some.  I know it served me well.  I chose college later when I had a definite direction for the degree I wanted.

 

Can't disagree with your basic sentiment Loppy.  The problem is that Apprenticeships and other forms of Craft/technical training have been totally decimated by the last couple of governments, (including Bliar/Brown).  Despite what the current lot will tell you, they have NOT increased apprenticeship training.  They have simply re-named a load of 'notional' training places, many of which  only exist on paper anyway and are unfilled. 

While the lack of proper craft/technical/apprenticeship training continues, we will continue to see many young people seeing HE as their only chance.. whether or not it is ideal.

 

 

 

Col

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How can anyone get an apprenticeship when the industries that use them are gone?  These days more and more folk are ending up on the new zero hours contracts and find themselves turning up for work and being sent home with a curt "No work for you today".  My brother-in-law had a zero hours job.  He had a minor accident, went home and the next day found himself out of work.  The boss just said that his job was no longer necessary and he was forced to let him go. End of job - just like that.

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1 hour ago, catfan said:

But a right to a social life, no, get off their arse & work for it.

Catfan, firstly I was only responding to your comment, ' I wouldn't get into debt for a social life '. Secondly above, that's what they are doing, working, working towards their futures. Many of these will be of benefit to society. It seems you are you saying, go to university and be prepared to give up a social life for three or four years ( or more ) at a time you can most appreciate it. Like students have enjoyed historically.  As I've said, the student debt liability doesn't affect social life. I didn't bring up the social life aspect, you did.

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46 minutes ago, Compo said:

How can anyone get an apprenticeship when the industries that use them are gone? 

 

Obviously you have a point there Compo.  Certainly the major maunufacturing and engineering industries have gone.  But the idea of an apprenticeship can be applied to a whole range of jobs, and that is the current idea.  The problem is that neither employers, nor Govt., are keen on stumping up the required funding.

 

Also, for as long as I have known anything about this, and certainly for the thirty years I had one foot in education and the other in employment.. as a Careers Adviser, everybody has been blaming everybody else...

 

Employers blame Government for the 'lack of properly educated recruits'.  Employers and Govt. both frequently blamed Careers Advisers for 'not steering people into the right jobs'.  ( A fundamental misunderstanding of the practice and purpose of Careers Guidance). The press, especially the usual suspects, blame Universities, Students, and anybody else they feel like having a go at on any particular day.

 

Col

 

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I don't get it.  If there are few to no apprenticeships available where is the country getting its supply of plumbers, electricians, carpenters, auto mechanics etc?  Us old timers are long gone.

 

Further to that I personally do not believe that the government should be providing funding for this process.  It's often better when they keep out.  Those words, "I'm from the govt, and I'm here to help."  Often seem to be the death knell of any enterprise. At the time of my apprenticeship.  The employer provided a job at a low wage while also providing the practical training to learn the job.  I'm not sure how much if any funding govt provided to such places as the People's College.  As apprentices we ended up with a decent practical and theoretical education.  At twenty one we were on full journeyman pay rates, and no debt.

 

I know I'm a Dinosaur, but it seemed to work back then, I wonder why it can't now?

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Loppy, in short, Govt. ( Under Thatcher) scrapped all of the Industry Training Boards.  It's gone down hill since then.

 

It's more complex than that but at present I'm trying to photograph butterflies in the garden.. I shall return..  :)

 

Col

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I think technology has a lot to answer for for the lack of apprenticships. Many jobs have been 'deskilled' to the point where almost anyone can do it with the minimal of training, especially in the manufacturing sector.

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It doesn't seem to work these days LL, because in our day, we only spent what we earned. Other than mortgages, I've only ever had two things on HP. A three piece suite in the early 70's, and a car in 2000, which I paid off within a year.

Nowadays, every youngster wants everything immediately, and bu66er the consequences ! 

Some don't want to work, and rely on benefits, solely because they have lower standards than the majority of us.  

I worked with a lad a few years ago who had degrees in Maritime Biology, and Oceanography or something similar. He worked as a packer in the warehouse, and said he could make more money with overtime than he could by using his qualifications, and that it was easier, and that he didn't have to think too much. 

I told him that he was depriving a less well educated person of a decent wage. He replied that it was his decision, and that was that.

Marvellous eh ? 

 

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LL, today's plumbers, brickies, electricians, builders, mechanics, HGV drivers all come from Eastern Europe. 

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It's clouded over for a bit Loppy.

 

Before I finished work in 2014, there were still a few companies who would take on apprentices from scratch. It seems to have just about maintained supply.  However, I 'm pretty sure the much discussed shortage of plumbers from the late 1990s was caused by the failure of the industry to get it's house in order after the scrapping of the ITBs by Thatcher.  If I remember,m there were a couple of different plumbing organisations at odds with each other. However, a lot of people started on plumbing, electrical etc., by going to college .  This could take them to NVQ level 2.  However, to progress to level 3, which is  the basis of the legal requirement for competence in these fields, the 'trainee' would need to gain emplyment. this was the main reason for failure and early drop out by many.  Govt. would fund things up to Level 2, but not beyond. I have a suspicion that there are more than a few 'cowboy's out there filling the gap. 

Back in the day, Govt. wasn't afraid to 'take on' these industries and pretty much make them train their own workforce.  The 'Levy' system which used to operate via the Construction ITB springs to mind.  But these days, the govt's 'laissez faire' approach has ended that.  In addition, investors in th UK seem more interested in a fast buck and quick return for shareholders, than in investing in the future in terms of either infrastructure, or a competent workforce.

 

Col

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