Police and Crime Commissioners

[FLY2 10,108]

Can't argue with that pm.

[DJ360 6,728]

Tompa, I'm not sure what an 'armchair politician' is. I'm still trying to avoid being too 'party political', but there are universal features of politics whatever your particular favourite colour.

We're all politicians because we all have a say in what happens through our vote and we all have a stake (more or less) in the country. Those we so love to hate, the 'professional' politicians, are just those we elect in the hope that they will represent our views. Representative democracy is an imperfect system, but it is better than any other system I can think of.

We can all stand for election and we can all hold and express our views. I know that is an idealised view and that things aren't perfect, but they won't get any better if we all take our respective balls away and sulk. All of the good things in this country were achieved by people banding together and taking 'collective action'. This is true from Magna Carta, to the battle for universal suffrage and through to workers rights, access to the countryside and much more. The currently fashionable 'They're all bent so it's not worth voting' is not only factually incorrect, but also plays into the hands of those who want to take increasing power and control away from us all.

When I started my degree ( in Politics, as it happens) I got sick of hearing Politics Lecturers going on about Politics being 'The Art or Science of Government'. Of course it is that on one level, but at it's most basic level I reckon that politics is any process of human interaction which determines who gets what. I put this to my lecturers and they all agreed. It follows that we are all involved in the process whether we like it or not, so we may as well take notice.

FWIW, I have been politically active in one way or another for many years. I can however say with hand on heart that in all cases I was asked to become involved. I was a long-time trade union member, and for many years I was a union rep for the Careers Service I worked in, as well as being the North West rep to the NALGO/UNISON National Careers Service Committee.

I was a member of the Labour Party and am currently considering whether to rejoin. I was an elected Parish Councillor and also Chair of my local Parish Council. (Contrary to popular opinion, Parish Councils are not church bodies, but are legally constituted arms of Local Govt.) I only gave up elected office for health reasons, but I remain committed to what I believe in. And.. I never sought, nor gained a penny of personal profit from any of my political or trade union activities.

You mentioned 'The state the country is in'. I couldn't agree more, though the particular 'state' that we each deplore might differ.

We both have the same choice though. Sit and sulk about it. Or get out there and use our votes, our campaigning etc, to influence things.

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

Phil #25. That's an interesting distinction.

Col

[Tompa 285]

DJ360 #27 Now there speaks a true politician

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

Not a big lover of politicians. But they all know one thing. They will never be able to please everyone so what do they do? They just please themselves.

[Tompa 285]

Bilbraborn #30 Whoooo what a daring statement. lol

Come on now, everybody loves politicians, you get fed up with hearing how brilliant they are.

[DJ360 6,728]

DJ360 #27 Now there speaks a true politician

Not much of a rebuttal though Tompa!

If I'm so wrong, it should be easy for you to pick my argument to pieces!

And if you think our system is so wrong, what do you suggest we do to put it right?

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

Bilbraborn #30. I'll put the same quesrtion to you as to Tompa. If our system, and our politicians are failing us so badly, what do you suggest we do about it?

It 's very easy to snipe from the sidelines and just decide it's all someone else's fault, but my view is that we all have a vote which was hard fought for, we can all stand for election, join political parties, join, initiate campaigns etc. .. if we care enough...

Or we can just give up, leave the politics to other people and then moan about the consequences.

Your shout.

Col

[catfan 14,793]

A more realistic & fairer voting system perhaps, get rid of the House of Lords as well, the latter would save an awful lot of money.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Reduce the commons membership to 301, that would cut my tax bill straight away, we are perhaps the most over politicised country anyway.

[poohbear 1,360]

There won't be any major reforms to the system which will change anything...It's their private club with expenses,their future pensions,their cottage in the Cotswolds with a nice little knighthood

Politicians won't piss on their own fireworks, and we're stuck with a two party load of alternating crap.The sickening thing is that we pay to keep them in the manner to which they're accustomed.

[Tompa 285]

Well I can't shout from the rooftops about how many degree's I have, cause I ain't got none, or even how many committee's I have sat on.

I don't try and convince people how right or wrong I am, or how right or wrong other people are, I just tell them how I see it.

But I do look around and see reality, Food banks, ex soldiers still waiting for compensation, gas and electric companies ripping us off, the homeless, bedroom tax, Doctor's strikes, 9 million spent on pamphlets to convince us to stay in the EU, cover ups, U-turns, the list goes on and on. Yes we will get change after a few violent encounters and a couple of deaths, but it might take ten years or more. But we are all in it together some more than others

Uneducated I may be, and not very good at this semantics game, but I do try and help others hands-on

And I do vote and have done so every year since I can remember

I am sure I will get a long drawn out boring explanation of how wrong I am from somebody.

.

[catfan 14,793]

Well said Tompa.

[Guest]

Tricky subject this,i moan about the state of affairs constantly- but feel my vote won't change a thing.EG: why were armed forces charged poll tax before they went off to combat?

Why are educated (?) people standing opposite each other in palatial surroundings banging on what so- and -so did in such a year!! Get it sorted..join together and sort the problems out instead of bitching about some other blokes policy.It's pathetic! people waiting on trolleys in corridors in hospitals when two royals are jetting around on us!!- and we are left holding the baby(s)..quite literally!

Weapons of mass destruction... don't make me piss- the wrong geezer gassed himself over that fiasco..president Blair should have done the hosepipe job!!

And wots this about Brits who have slogged there guts out in a factory,paid into a system that they aren't going to benefit from now until they are 70??!!!

Yet some bleeder from "Benefitztan" gets limoed to housing/disability/and dole heaven!!

We don't look after our own anymore- "WE" meaning the button pressers,I bet loads on here look in on elderly neighbours- run errands- collect pensions- mind kids- feed holiday makers animals- take keys and do the neighbours lights and curtains-donate to a certain charity that one of our loved ones have perished by etc..etc..

This is what runs England, this kind of responsible acts in society is what oils the wheels. Paying taxes and all other Levy's seem to me to be giving all the undeserved a leg up- on your back!!

I think I am with Tompa on this one- and I gel with Col on most other topics.

If you want a definition of democracy... the scene with Paul Eddington in BBC's Yes Minister describes it to a tee!

Sadly that way of life and the bastardisation of politics today...its warped way beyond anything recognisable... rather put me X on a spot the ball coupon that a ballot paper! ( kept it short!)

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

Don't forget Tompa a degree is a sign of education......................... it ain't bugger all to do with being clever............

[FLY2 10,108]

Ian ! ....... Cool it, or you'll be having a coronary. No Hobgoblin will ever cure that. LOL

As I said ages ago, we've had the Haves and the Have Nots since day 1 and nothing will ever change.

Anyway, I don't want everything shared out equally. Why should someone who has worked tremendous hours to set up a very successful and profitable business give some up to fund me? Good luck to them I say.

[Guest]

Gets us all talking Fly..no harm to anyone meant! Hobgoblin is only a euro for a large bottle at the Mo...cheers!!

[bamber 128]

Interesting post DJ360.

I think Peter Hennessy hit the nail on the head when he said that post 1945 - without an empire to run - HMG and the Whitehall Civil Service turned its attention to the UK to keep itself occupied.

The appetite for ever more central political control having been whetted by two world wars; the Fabians unshakeable belief that they always knew what was good for you and the slow, economic decline throughout the 20th Century of the great cities as a counterbalance to London.

Where it will all end up is an interesting question as I am pretty sure communal politics will also become an increasingly major consideration over the next few decades. The recent spat between Muslim politicians on the streets of London and the Jewish powerbrokers who have traditionally been very close to the Labour leadership might be a precursor of things to come.

[DJ360 6,728]

Tompa.

I have deliberately tried to avoid being 'party political' in this thread. I have also not attacked you personally. I have disagreed with your position, that's all. There really is no need to make it personal.

I prefer, as they say, to 'play the ball, not the man'.

So, I'd appreciate it if you would please stop taking thinly disguised pops at me, such as:

Well I can't shout from the rooftops about how many degree's I have, cause I ain't got none, or even how many committee's I have sat on.

I don't try and convince people how right or wrong I am, or how right or wrong other people are, I just tell them how I see it.

I make no apology for my level of qualification, but more importantly, you completely missed the point I was making by referring to my studies. The point being that we are all politicians, because politics extends way beyond the formal politics of national and local govt.

I have made no direct, or implied comment about your level of education. You brought that up. I am only interested in what you say.

You joined this thread with a very negative and defeatist post. A reminder of what you said:

I love reading all the comments posted by the armchair politicians. But in the end the politicians do as they want........ Democracy !!!! don't make me laugh, at the end of it all you have to accept what they do, and do as you are told.

The end result is staring you in face................. ( The state this country is in )

I am simply trying to argue that it is utterly useless to sit moaning on here about whatever it is you don't like about politics and politicians. That alone will change nothing.

I don't accept that there's nothing we can do. Resistance from many sources has caused the recent climb down on forced Academisation of schools, the U-turn on the budget and many other issues.

YMMV

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

A more realistic & fairer voting system perhaps, get rid of the House of Lords as well, the latter would save an awful lot of money.

Certainly agree about the votiing system. I'm not decided about the Lords. I think we benefit from an upper house which can take a more measured view of things away from the argy bargy of the Commons chamber. But, I deplore the level of cronyism which allows peerages to be dished out in return for favours.

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

There won't be any major reforms to the system which will change anything...It's their private club with expenses,their future pensions,their cottage in the Cotswolds with a nice little knighthood

Politicians won't piss on their own fireworks, and we're stuck with a two party load of alternating crap.The sickening thing is that we pay to keep them in the manner to which they're accustomed.

Defeatism again. If the 13thC Barons, 17thC Parliamentarians, Labour movement, Suffragettes, etc., etc., had all thought like that, we'd still all be serfs.

And if we continue to ignore politics 'en masse', because we think we can't do anything about it. We'll soon all be serfs again.

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

Ian #39. I'm just as upset by those issues as you are, though I don't believe the facts bear out the stuff about:

Yet some bleeder from "Benefitztan" gets limoed to housing/disability/and dole heaven!!

UK citizens struggle to get Unemployment Benefit and it's only for a few months if they do. EU migrants can claim some benefits, but so can Brits abroad.

The rest mostly get 'nowt', which is why they are kipping in the streets.

But my main point here is that my statement that we have a very flawed system, but better than most, seems to have got some people thinking I'm in favour of the 'status quo'. I most definitely am not, which is why I continue to take all the action I can to bring about change.

Col

[DJ360 6,728]

Don't forget Tompa a degree is a sign of education......................... it ain't bugger all to do with being clever............

It's both.

[DJBrenton 738]

I agree that there are many educated idiots but I'm never sure why people wear their lack of education as a badge of honour. It's not really something to boast about, quite often it's a real shame as many clever people weren't given the chance of a decent education. I'd still want my doctor to have stayed in education beyond the age of 15 though.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Guest]

It seems old Tipping has a lot to answer for.