To christen or not to christen?

[ValuerJim 277]

We were clearing out our cupboards last weekend when I came across my dad's christening mug from 1906. I'm not sure whether or not I and my sisters were ever christened and, if we were, it's had no lasting effect, but none of my three kids or other family members of their generation have been christened, and I can't think of any friends' children who have been. It seems to have become just a minority social occasion. Is the tradition dying out?

[loppylugs 8,429]

Depends on your definition of Christening. Some who will probably only darken the doorstep of a church three times. (Hatched , matched and dispatched). Simply regard it as some kind of naming ceremony. Others think if the kid dies young it will be a get into heaven free ticket. The Bible does not teach that baptism or communion bring salvation. Really they are just evidences of it.

As a pastor I don't know how many times I have heard the words, "we've got to get the kid DONE". When I would ask "why?" I would be met with a blank stare. :-)

Its roots are the Christian ordinance of baptism which we as Christians believe should be by immersion after a clear understanding and personal faith in Christ. This is not possible for an infant as he/she is too young to be able to make an informed choice. In many churches infants might be dedicated to Christ. This is really a commitment by the parents to bring them up in the faith.

In conclusion one might say it is harmless but really doesn't do much good either. For a child it is putting the cart before the horse.

[Guest]

Reading you loud and clear Dave,I seldom go to mass,but pray a lot and do try to act good in deed and word.

My kids go to church with Mum regular and i feel it has given them some sort of a grounding.

Here too they get the baby baptised and don't step into church until holy communion!... crazy!

In my teens I was to busy carousing.. but later i found benefit from prayer and religion.

Next time I'm over I'd like to join Catfan one Sunday...if he don't mind

BTW..how's the playing coming on?

[StephenFord 866]

Re #2 - I agree with every word you say. The problem with christening as I see it is that it makes a statement that is simply not true - summed up in the old Anglican hymn "I was made a Christian when my name was given..." It encourages the attitude that, having been "done", there is nothing else to being a Christian - no need for personal faith, living for Christ, or actually thinking about whether you actually believe the teachings of the bible, for example. Without taking these things seriously, so-called "Christianity" degenerates into a jumble of folk sayings (that might or might not be true) meaningless religious slogans and sheer emotionalism. I know lots of people dismiss the bible altogether, but let's be honest - there is no other tangible authority to define what Christianity really is.

[loppylugs 8,429]

Thanks for the encouragement. I am almost reluctant to try to answer such a question as I do not wish to be accused of preaching or prosletyzing and get the thread locked. Its a bit like politics :-) but the question was asked and Jim deserves an answer.

Unfortunately many churches have been watering things down so as not to give offence to various groups and individuals that for many, Christianity has become little more than nice people being told o be nice to each other each week. The leadership does not believe the Bible, so why should the people?

Ian. I am plodding on with my playing. Thanks for your interest. It is gradually coming along. The finger brain connection is still a bit slow. :-)

[DJ360 6,728]

Interesting stuff.

My disclaimer: I do not believe any of it, but I respect any religion which respects my right not to believe.

FWIW, I struggle to understand why we need Gods to encourage us to be good, honest, tolerant, kind etc., etc. But then I was brought up in a broadly Christian family and went to Sunday School etc., in my youth.

In these situations I always end up coming back to the principle that true faith cannot be imposed. It can only be acquired/arrived at.

I always thought that Christening was a sort of contract. The Church accepted the infant, and the Parents/Godparents agreed to bring the infant up in the Christian faith.

I'm nominally Cof E.

We had our older daughter 'done', but never made her go to church. Nevertheless, she got herself involved and ended up getting 'Confirmed'. We neither encouraged nor discouraged her. Just asked her to think about the commitment she was making.etc. In retrospect I think she was just drawn to the 'romanticism' of it all. Maybe we should have given more guidance, but when does guidance become 'direction'? I have no idea. She's not a churchgoer now, and had a 'civil' wedding. (All her choice).

Younger daughter wasn't 'done' and from discussion, isn't bothered.

I'm 'Godfather' to my late Sister's oldest lad. He's 49. A prize pillock, 'coke head', serial womaniser and boozer. ( And that's only the half of it.). I did have quiet words with him over a few things when he was younger. Never got 'heavy', and preferred my old Grandad's 'Have you ever thought?' 'Promise me you'll think about it' approach. Doesn't seem to have worked.

I was obviously a poor choice of Godfather...

Col

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

I'm staying out of this one.

Too many of the world's problems are religion based.

[catfan 14,793]

God doesn't start wars BW, people do that.

#3.

You would always be most welcome Ian.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

That's what I was trying to say.

Religion is or was all about controlling the lower orders

Behave your self or else it's the burn in **** ? for ever when you die

or accept being poor and "god" will reward you in the *after life"

It's all one big con

[letsavagoo 963]

I don't think anyone has actually answered Jims question yet. Is Christening in decline. Yes Jim. The practice is in decline.

Although christenings were already in decline, one in three infants was still baptised into the Church of England in 1980. By 2011 that had fallen to just over one in 10. The overall number of baptisms - of people of all ages - witnessed a similar decline, from 266,000 in 1980 to 140,000 in 2011.

It's a similar story in the Catholic Church, although the major drop-off in baptisms happened between 1964 and 1977, when the number halved. There's been a far gentler downward trend over the past three decades, recently stabilising at about 60,000 baptisms a year.

[Blondie 1,392]

Chrisitaning is definitely on the decline as no one hardly ever goes to church these day.................when I was child growing up in the 50's most people went to Church or Sunday School........Weddings and Christenings were the norm.........Now weddings take place everywhere but church, Christianings hardly ever......................Worship has become very much hated as there are so many different religions now and it has become the cause of the Worlds problems...........

[FLY2 10,108]

Mores the pity I'm afraid.

[philmayfield 6,127]

No, it's a good thing that we are not being brainwashed and "radicalised" into religion as we were in the post-war years. Let those who want to follow the religious route do so when they have experience of life and can make their own decisions. I was seventeen and attending confirmation class when I had my "anti Damascus moment" and realised what a load of rubbish it all was.

[DJ360 6,728]

I had a similar experience Phil. At 'Bible Classes' when some spotty faced kid told me I was 'Godless' because I admitted to doing school homework on the 'Sabbath'. That level of ignorance and misunderstanding was the last straw and I walked.

That said, I would not seek to belittle anyone's beliefs or faith. It seems to me that it is at this individual level where true faith resides. Many people seem to gain comfort and a sort of guidance from their church.

Whilst I don't personally believe, I like the way that the church seems a lot more democratic these days. There seems to be a lot less conformity,a lot less 'pulpit bashing' and a lot more discussion. A good thing IMHO. People should always question things, including religious teachings. Otherwise it is just brainwashing.

I think it's a mistake to believe that the ills of the world are somehow down to a decline in worship/participation.

The evidence doesn't support this view.

Higher participation in the past did not prevent war, even between Chistians. Quite the reverse I think. And the track record of all religions in the 'conquest and conversion' stakes is just appalling.

God doesn't start wars. He doesn't stop them either.

Looking at the more 'local' issue of 'morals' and general behaviour. It is pretty clear that double standards have always applied. The Victorians were very good at them. High attendance/participation did nothing to stop this. And the less said about recent behaviour of some 'clerics' the better.

To answer the question. IMHO, the decision to 'join' any religion should be made by adults, Even then I think it's not a 'given' that they'll get it right.

Col.

[Oztalgian 3,284]

Interestingly It is census night here in OZ tomorrow night and the question about religion has been reframed with religions placed in this order on the form. It is an optional question

No religion

Catholic

Angligan (Church of England)

Uniting Church

Presbyterian

Buddhism

Islam

Greek Orthodox

Baptist

Hinduism

Other (please specify)

Judaism does not get its own box??

With the 'No religion" being placed at the top it is estimated that the number of Australians reporting no religion will rise from 22% in the last census to around 40% this time round. It is inevitable that baptisms and other "religious" rites such as confirmation, marriage, funeral services will all decline.

I'm with philmayfield, #13, none of our kids were baptised, they could choose for themselves when older, none did, but that is bye the bye, each to their own.

[Jill Sparrow 10,305]

No religion or belief can ever justify harming anyone else.

I always find great inspiration and wisdom in the words of Gibran:

"Say not 'I have found the truth.' Say, rather, 'I have found a truth.' Say not ' I have found the soul that walks upon the path.' Say, rather, 'I have found the soul that walks upon my path.' For the soul walks upon all paths."

Belief is a personal issue and, as another wise and much admired person, the Dalai Llama, says, in the end it really doesn't matter which religion you subscribe to, if any at all. It is who you are inside that really matters.

I don't think I'll go far wrong with that!

[carni 10,094]

in the end it really doesn't matter which religion you subscribe to, if any at all. It is who you are inside that really matters.

I don't think I'll go far wrong with that!

I agree, It doesn't take much to know whether your thoughts and actions are for the good or bad. Unless you have a broken mind. As with anything that is broken, it will not work properly.

[loppylugs 8,429]

I have mostly stayed away from this because I had a pretty good idea where it would lead. Sorry I didn't quite answer Jim's question. Yes I would say "Christening" is in decline and I do not consider that to be such a bad thing. BTW. Marriage seems to be on the decline also.

The arguments are predictable. Religion starts wars etc. poinless arguing such. No one will be content with the arguments and hurt feelings result, thus threads get deleted.

As Col stated last night. "I respect any religion that respects my right to disbelieve." I respect that right. I will go further than that. Jesus respects your right to disbelieve also. There is no Biblical record of Him begging anyone to believe. He stated the facts and left folks to make up their minds. It was the RELIGIOUS folks that nailed Him to a cross because He called out their hypocrisy among other things. He would have a ball today and the day is coming when He will.

His followers have made mistakes. We always will because we are fallen human beings. An open reading of the new testament will reveal that He did not make a mistake. Please judge Christianity by Him, not the weakness of His followers. Some who claim to be Christian are not, but we all get judged by their failings. The inquisition would be a good example. So would the kiddy fiddling among so called priests and other "clergy." They make me sick!

I could go on but it would be pointless. Have a good day y'all.

[NewBasfordlad 3,599]

I am out of this one, I was once told when going to work in Ireland back in 67 'don't talk religion or politics and you'll have a great time'. I didn't and I did.

[fogrider 179]

It seems to me that Christening is not happening because , since the sixties, more and more people simply have "partners" and do not see a need to marry. If you don't bother getting married, why bother with a christening ?

As for religion, as a village kid, I was expected ( and complied ) to attend church. I was a bell ringer and choir boy in the fifties, at an Anglican church. When I was subsequently required to attend confirmations, I asked what it was all about, when it was explained that you drink the blood of Christ, and eat the body of Christ, I was out of there like a shot !

Scary !

All religions are simply brainwashing. The medieval monks were right crooks that distorted religion to subjugate the masses. As someone above says, I respect people having their religion, it's a hobby basically.

I'll stick to old cars and motorbikes, thank you.

[DJ360 6,728]

Desiderata

Max Ehrmann

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others,

even to the dull and ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter,

for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.

Keep interested in your own career, however humble;

it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery.

But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;

many persons strive for high ideals,

and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love;

for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.

But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.

Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars;

you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you,

no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life,

keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams,

it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Col

[loppylugs 8,429]

From some of the accounts of what you have been taught in certain churches it sounds like there are a lot of folks teaching who shouldn't be and need to go back to Bible basics 101.

Some love the uniform, dog collar and long robes.

Some like the title "reverend" "father". Etc etc. canon, bishop, deacon, right reverend, archdeacon. Oh dear!

I particularly don't like the title "Reverend". It is only used of one in the Bible, and that is of God Himself. I would be entitled to use it if I wished. Personally I wouldn't dare. I just introduce myself as Dave.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

"Pastor Dave"??

[BilboroughShirley 1,120]

I was christened at the Church in Yorkshire where my parents were married. I went to Methodist Sunday School and this was my own choice at the age of about 6. My friends went and so on Sunday afternoon I went with them. I made more friends at Kingswood Methodist Sunday School. It was interesting and friendly. The Bible stories were put over well and a group of us did something called the Scripture Exam. Also groups of us used to go and visit elderly people in the community, doing little jobs for them and sitting and listening to them. A friend and I used to visit a disabled lady who had a lovely daughter and twin sons who were 3 years old and a right handful. We took them to the park to give her a break and time with her daughter. All of this was great and what I saw as active, positive Christianity. Then it all changed. The disabled lady became a JW. My friend and I were horrified and my parents agreed to saying that I could no longer go there! This was our get-out. Then Sunday School changed as we became teenagers. It turned into lectures about "strong drink and gambling". There were the Methodist version of Confirmation Classes. I went and then refused to join the Church. They wanted us to sign "the Pledge". No way! I was 16. I said no and stopped going. Sunday school was good but Church became indoctrination.

When our son was born my sister in law advised us to have him christened. Since I was 16 I had only ever been to Church for weddings (not ours - the registry office was good), funerals and one christening. However I realised that christening would lead to Sunday school and that would be good. The Vicar visited us and asked why we wanted him christened as "you will not come to Church"! We were very annoyed and my thinking was "If that is what you think then just watch me!". He was christened and I took him to Church. He went to Sunday School then joined the Choir and loved it. It was his own choice to be confirmed.

I frequently had conversations with our son about religious extremism, telling him my story of Sunday School, why my dad refused to go to Church, and a few grim tales about families we know who joined so-called Christian organisations that were more or less cults. They had difficulty getting out of the cult.

There are many good, positive things about joining a Church community but it is important to keep eyes wide open and watch out for extremism and attempts to control lives.

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

The JWs steer clear of me the morons too.

We have one of these "happy clappy" Jesus churches (a cult) based in our area of Loughborough.

They tend to be young people so I think at 67 am a tad old & corrupted for them