BilboroughShirley

Vinyl discs

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50.  I guess how well it is pressed becomes the real issue.  Just reading a week or so ago about a new vinyl startup here in Ga.  They claim to have bought 'state of the art' equipment.  They are probably not pressing my choice of music, but I was pleased to hear of it.  I suppose the matter then becomes, how good is the original source material?

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I suppose Loppy that the first thing is to capture the musical performance accurately.  The trouble there of course is 'what is accurate?'  Even with classical orchestral performances where the lay out of the orchestra is standardised, the recording venue varies and different recording engineers have differing techniques and ideas.  I've noticed that some classical orchestral recordings give the 'view' from close to the stage, whereas other seem to place the listener towards the back of the stalls.

With 'pop' and 'rock', most of it is studio stuff anyway., so the onus is on the producer and recording engineer (often these days with massive input from the artist) to decide on the sound they want.

Mixing and mastering etc. all happens, and then it is up to whoever 'drives' the cutting lathe to produce a faithful 'master'.  This in turn is usually copied by complex chemical and electro plating processes to produce multiple 'stampers', which are used to literally press the hot vinyl.  It seems generally agreed that early vinyl, especially classical and jazz, was very well done.  The generally agreed 'low point' was during the 70s when many LPs were very thin and floppy and often made from recycled vinyl.  Not good.  Most 'posh' prerssings these days claim at least 180gm and 'virgin' vinyl.

 

Of course when it comes to listening.. all you can really hope to do is reproduce what was recorded. Linn Products for E.g., used to argue that the idea of 'stereo imaging' was 'guff', because you could not know what happened in the studio. (Obviously nothing to do with the ability of their very pricey and overhyped kit to reproduce a believeable stereo image).  My counter argument was to ask Linn Products why they bothered producing stereo amps and pairs of stereo speakers if this was the case?  I never got a reply.....  ;) 

 

You can get very good results with some relatively inexpensive vinyl spinners these days.  But, as you move up the quality ladder, you do start to hear more and more detail.  (Assuming your amps, speakers and ears are up to the job.) Typically, better turntables and tonearms tend to produce cleaner and more detailed highs, as well as deeper, more powerful and tuneful .'lows'.  It can be a never ending quest though and you have to draw a line somewhere.

 

With my system, I can usually hear where instruments and vocals are placed 'in the mix'.  I can also hear how people move in the mix.  Whether they actually moved during recording, or the effect was just created by the engineer using 'cross faders' etc, doesn't really matter.

 

It's all good fun!

 

Col

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I found my earlier albums Deutche Grammophon (spelling) ?  HMV, etc. generally seemed pretty good but they were pricey even back then.  As you said, in the 70s a lot of labels did get cheaper but the pressings were often bad, warps, bumps etc.. I took a few back over time.  The top labels stayed pricey but I don't think I ever came across a bad one and they were noticeably heavier than some of the cheapies.  They still play like new to this day.

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For Loppy and anyone else who's interested.  The link is to a very informative page about 'classic' Classical labels for vinyl.  It was put together by Tony Lonergan who runs runs the 'pinkfishmedia website as a music/hi-fi forum and a vehicle for his second hand vinyl business. Well worth a look:

 

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8266

 

Col

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I have very little vinyl now (13 Mike Harding LPs)& nothing to play it on.

As most of you know I bought a new system last week & all I can now play is CDs

I have in excess of 800 CDs & would not have roon to store that many LPs on vinyl :)

 

 

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Bubble.  If your Mike Harding LPs are in playable condition, I can transfer them to digital for you using  my Michell Orbe record player and a Yamaha CD recorder.

I have however just shelled out £840 for a new cartridge so they will need to be in good 'nick'!! 

 

Col

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On 10/08/2017 at 0:13 AM, DJ360 said:

 

 

 

Is that an original stereo DJ?

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It's a Garrard 301 Turntable fitted with two tonearms.  Those 'top end' Garrards were usually supplied as bare chassis and needed fitting into a suitable 'plinth'.  The 301 was made I think from the late 1950s through to around 1970.  Many are still in use and they sound really good if properly set up.  I've no idea who owns the player in the picture and there is no info about the cartridge or the amplification.

Both tonearms are SME from the look of them.  They were originally made around the same time as the player.  The one actually playing is a 12" arm.  3" longer than most arms but that extra length reduces the 'tracking distortion' which is caused by the geometry of all 'pivoted' tone arms.  The only way to stop this is to have a 'parallel tracking' arm which moves straight across the record rather than sweeping over in an arc.  But parallel tracking arms are very difficult to make work properly and have their own issues.

I would happily get a Garrard like the one above.  They are still about.  But the problem I have is space.  If you look at that set up it is about two feet across including the plinth.  I just don't have the room for one., though my own Michell Orbe is hardly small.

 

Col

 

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Wonder how heavy the actual turntable is.  My Thorens TD 150 is nine pounds.  Real nice and smooth after fifty years.

 

No fancy electronic servo.  Just a simple synchronous motor.  I had to change it when we moved here as the power supply is 60hz, rather than the 50hz in the UK.

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On 02/09/2017 at 1:43 AM, DJ360 said:

It's a Garrard 301 Turntable fitted with two tonearms.  Those 'top end' Garrards were usually supplied as bare chassis and needed fitting into a suitable 'plinth'.  The 301 was made I think from the late 1950s through to around 1970.  Many are still in use and they sound really good if properly set up.  I've no idea who owns the player in the picture and there is no info about the cartridge or the amplification.

Both tonearms are SME from the look of them.  They were originally made around the same time as the player.  The one actually playing is a 12" arm.  3" longer than most arms but that extra length reduces the 'tracking distortion' which is caused by the geometry of all 'pivoted' tone arms.  The only way to stop this is to have a 'parallel tracking' arm which moves straight across the record rather than sweeping over in an arc.  But parallel tracking arms are very difficult to make work properly and have their own issues.

I would happily get a Garrard like the one above.  They are still about.  But the problem I have is space.  If you look at that set up it is about two feet across including the plinth.  I just don't have the room for one., though my own Michell Orbe is hardly small.

 

Col

 

 

I had to smile to myself Col as I was referring to the record in the image as the thread title is 'vinyl discs'. Thanks for the description anyway!

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Oops.  But yes.. it looks like an original copy.  Not sure if it has ever been re-issued on vinyl, but it should be.. 

 

Ohh and Loppy.. off the top of my head I'd say about.. oooh 16 pounds or so.....

 

OK, I cheated.  Nice little page here about Garrards and Thorens..

 

http://www.analogue-classics.com/html/garrard_301.html

 

My Michell Orbe SE weighs in at 13.5 Kg., or about 30 pounds.

 

Col

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Thanks for that interesting link, Col.   I think I should get my terminology correct.  I was referring to the weight of the PLATTER.

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Just thought I'd post a sexy pic of my turntable looking all sultry in low light.. :)

 

IMG_9022

 

 

And another..

 

IMG_9024

 

Col

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On 02/09/2017 at 11:51 PM, loppylugs said:

Wonder how heavy the actual turntable is.  My Thorens TD 150 is nine pounds.  Real nice and smooth after fifty years.

 

No fancy electronic servo.  Just a simple synchronous motor.  I had to change it when we moved here as the power supply is 60hz, rather than the 50hz in the UK.

 

Hi Loppy,

This motor power supply could represent a nice little upgrade for your Thorens at a reasonable £55.  I have no connection with the seller nd I can't vouch for the product.. but they are from Notts.. so they must be OK!!  :)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vinyl-Passion-Wave-Universal-Power-supply-Thorens-Linn-many-more-/331340473177

 

 

Col

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Thanks for the info Col.  I probably won't do anything at my stage of life with these old loppylugs.  I cannot detect any audible wow or flutter.  So it would seem to be subject to the law of diminishing returns.

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No worries Loppy.  Just thought you might be interested.

 

Col

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Many years back I bought a boxed set of records in Australia called "The Beatles Box". The other day I was wondering if they still produced it, I still have mine in mint condition I might add, well yes they do, but only on the used market. What floored me was the going price for that set, up to $300!!

It's also sold as  version remastered on CD's.

I see every one of the Beatles LP's are available as remastered vinyls, at a price!! The whole set can be had for nearly 1000 bucks!! Or cheaper in a CD set.

A search will reveal most of the 60's and 70's artists recordings can be bought as new remastered vinyl LP's..Seems the recording industry has revitalized records again.

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We were just discussing this on another thread, John.  Just seemed to be proof that some of the older technology was better than folks often give it credit for.  We know the old vinyl can get a bit crackly, especially if not well cared for.  Seems to me though, that the main difference lies in the difference between analog and digital.  Those old analogs just sound nicer to my old Loppy lugs. :)

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With my hearing I couldn't tell the difference between Hi Fi and Lo Fi these days....LOL But a lot claim analogue is far better and pleasing to the ear than digital.

Even so old technology is coming back.

I found something interesting the other day, DVD movies are not burned, would take too much time and the quality isn't as good, they press them, exactly the same way vinyl records are made! As are CD's too.

I don't know how, but would guess the substrate is pressed then sealed in the plastic body. But it appears the "bumps" are more pronounce in pressing than they are in burning with a laser.

 

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Hi Fi, Lo Fi. Me neither.... I just go for sheer volume !   Hence thirty odd years of tinnitus !

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I have GEM on in the car and sometimes at home.

Medium Wave AM gives the familiar 50s/60s sound reproduction. Reminds me of the big chrome plated, klunky mono Motorola pushbutton preselect I had in my old 105E.

 

Edit. Still got a lot of CDs. For convenience and 2 vinyl albums  on one disc. 

Ears= tinnitus and HF roll off.

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On 10/03/2018 at 0:47 PM, Ayupmeducks said:

Many years back I bought a boxed set of records in Australia called "The Beatles Box". The other day I was wondering if they still produced it, I still have mine in mint condition I might add, well yes they do, but only on the used market. What floored me was the going price for that set, up to $300!!

It's also sold as  version remastered on CD's.

I see every one of the Beatles LP's are available as remastered vinyls, at a price!! The whole set can be had for nearly 1000 bucks!! Or cheaper in a CD set.

A search will reveal most of the 60's and 70's artists recordings can be bought as new remastered vinyl LP's..Seems the recording industry has revitalized records again.

 

The reality is that vinyl never really went out of production and the production of quality turntables if anything increased. It was very much a case of 'Reports of my demise' being premature.  It did however become something of a 'niche' product.  Specialiists such as Mobile Fidelity and Chesky did a lot of re-masters of 'classic' albums.  EMI have, I think, done more than one complete series of vinyl re=presses of the Beatles catalogue.. some original mono, some stereo etc.  I was very impressed by the Mobile Fidelity re-press of 'Magical Mystery Tour', borrowed from a friend recently.

 

However.. now that vinyl is 'reborn' and on offer to the masses again. the potential for poor pressing to get into the market is as high as it was back before CD.

 

Col

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I'm glad it's doing well again, but I probably don't have enough time left to buy any more.  I haven't listened to most of what I have for years.  When I go out in the car I am often glad to just have a bit of quiet to collect my thoughts.  I don't know if it's just me. I get up at seven a.m every day.  Go to bed about ten, the hours in between seem compressed.  Work outside a bit in the morning.  Organpractice for a couple of hours after lunch.  Take the dogs out to play with 'em a bit.  Supper time. Read for an hour or two and it's bedtime again.

 

I don't waste time on TV.  Not worth the effort.

 

Not really relevant to vinyl disks I know, but it describes the life of one from that era.

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That's a very structured life by my standards Loppy.  I have no real routine and just tend to do what appeals at the time.  That's not to say I'm lazy.  I do walk and I'm getting into my fitness training routine again, as well as slowly working through a few DIY jobs.  I try to make some time for proper music listening every week. I also alternate between my own music and BBC Radio 4 in the car.. though periods of silence are OK too.

 

I have hundreds.. possibly thousands of vinyl LPs.  I do need to weed out some which will never get played, or are poor condition examples inherited from who knows where. But many more are very close to my heart and are part of my life.  I really like that thing where you dig out an LP you haven't played for years and think 'Wow!!  I'd forgotten how good this is..!!'

 

Col

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