DJ360

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Several weeks ago, 'er indoors bought me a rather expensive birthday present. The seller put it to YODEL for delivery - Two weeks ago Yodel said it was in their depot ready for delivery, today Yodel deny all knowledge of ever having received it from the seller. Yodel have quite simply at best, lost it, at worst stolen it.

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Having once been to a Yodel depot it wouldn't surprise if it's not been kicked into a corner and forgotten. The one I went to was a complete and utter mess, total chaos.

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It must have gone into the same black hole that a very expensive laptop I ordered for my late husband disappeared into. That arrived at their depot never to be seen again. Luckily the seller sent us another one, I presume he was insured, but he sent it by another carrier with no problem.

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Beginning to get a bit worried tonight. The rain hasn't stopped for about 5 days and it's going to continue until the early hours of Monday morning. My daughter has just sent me a photo of our road, it's already flooding. I haven't been out of the house today so haven't seen what's happening. We have an orchard at the back of the house that goes uphill which continues onto a vineyard belonging to our neighbours. I'm always worried of a landslide. There are quite a few trees holding the earth so we can only hope. Taking account of our position today I realized that the house is a fair way from the road and it slopes down towards the road. ( I did know but saw things differently today)The pool is covered and the rain has topped it up so much that I think it might overflow. No doubt quite a few properties in the village are already flooded as it happens even when the rain is heavy and the drains can't cope. Wish us luck. One thing I'm thankful for is that we aren't as hard hit as Alba ( Ferraro  factory which has been closed due to flooding) We are between Alba and Asti which also is flooded.

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Fingers crossed for you and your neighbours Nonna.  

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Same here Nonna.  Take care.

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Good luck, Nonna. Similar weather here but not nearly as bad as yours. Huge quantities of rain dropping from the skies in the last few days - it's cold as well. 

 

Flights have been cancelled at Nice airport due to flooding of the runway although I understand it has now reopened. One of the problems of building an airport on the beach, I suppose.

 

The forecast is optimistic, however and it is due to brighten up this afternoon. Let's hope it moves east a bit to give you some relief.

 

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Well where do I start. Thankyou for all your encouraging comments. The rain here is due to finish at 1pm tomorrow. Last night one of the dogs was sniffing around in the corner where the tv is and I noticed the floor was shiny, it was wet with a fair sized puddle. Moved the tv and place bath towels down to absorb water. I couldnt see where the water was coming through and I imagined it was like a few years ago when it was coming through the power points. But they were dry and so I supposed it was coming up between the floor and skirting boards (tiled both of them). After mopping up everywhere seemed dry but just  in case I placed 3 bath sheets down . This morning 2 of them were wet through and I noticed a shiny streak coming down the wall, looking closer it was coming from a crack in the wall but only losing water on the bottom part. 

I think the ground is so bogged down that its obviously got to come out somewhere. Our road has been closed further down and there are other roads that are dangerously close to flooding that are put on standby. I suppose in a sense that we are lucky, just hope it doesnt get worse for those already in a disastrous state.

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Sounds very worrying, nonna. I hope it stops soon. Nothing worse than water where it shouldn't be.

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Fingers crossed for you all.......

 

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It's MOT faliure day once again tomorrow....We have to put our cars through a ministry test to see if they are fit for the roads; so why is there no test to see if the roads are fit for cars to use?!

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Quick question for anyone with electrical knowledge.

 

Daughter is moving house and on pulling out an appliance she is taking with her, has uncovered an 'open'  power supply.  It's a single steel backing box with folded wires in it.  It has no socket, switch, or blanking plate over it.  I've only seen a picture so far and don't know if it is live till I get there to check.

 

Daughter says it was formerly a power socket for her dishwasher, but must have been messed with by someone when she had a kitchen re-fit a year or so back.  I suspect it was preventing something from being pushed back against the wall so the 'fitters' just removed it.

 

If it is live, the simplest answer is for me to fit a 13A socket.  That's entirely within my competence.

 

If it's not live, I'd be more inclined to fit a blanking plate, but I need to know the approved method of 'terminating' the wires first, in case anyone contrives to make them live again in future. I think the approved method is to put the wires into terminal blocks.

 

Key point.  The house is sold so has to be safe and seen to be.  Any doubts at all and I'll get her to call an electrician.

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Reckon I would agree with you DJ., use a tester to find out if live or not. Then run into a terminal block and put a blank plate over. (That's what I would, anyroad).

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I would fit a 13A socket if checks out as live with a mains tester. Obviously isolate the circuit before working on it.

If it’s not live, which is doubtful, then, as you suggest, fit terminal blocks and a cover plate. I don’t know what the regulations are these days with diy electrical work but I believe such simple jobs don’t require someone with a certificate of competency but if you go online it will put doubt in your mind! There will be earth leakage circuit breakers to protect the system so you should be perfectly safe. I’ve seen many instances of incompetent work carried out by registered electrical contractors. 

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I would fit a 13A socket if checks out as live with a mains tester

 

Under part P regulations you are allowed to replace like for like, but...

How do you know the neutral is connected, how do you know there is earth continuity? You cannot 'assume' the reason for missing faceplate or socket.  Nor has RCD protection been mentioned.

If you're testing with a multi-meter and there is a broken neutral it will read as dead, touch and you may well be!

The popular 'sticks' that light on detecting a live cable only prove a cable live. They do NOT prove a circuit is dead!

It is in all probability safe to do as you plan, BUT  as an electrical engineer I've seen a LOT of 'I tested it and looked OK to me'.

 

I should also point out protection, fuses, breakers etc. do not protect the system or appliances - only  the cables. 

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Reminds me of annual tests of feeder cables underground, having to do a continuity test of both conductors and earth, as well as an insulation test of all three phases between and to earth. Long job on a couple of miles of high voltage cable.

As I always stated, the most important conductor is the earth conductor, one can live if we lost a phase, but lose the ground and it's deadly.

Under M&Q Act, if a circuit tripped on earth leakage, we weren't allowed to close the breaker, a test with a megger was required to prove the circuit one way or another. Under NSW, CMR Act, we were allowed to close once and once only, if it held, we considered it was OK, trip again, then a full test of the circuit was required.

 

Over this side of the pond, domestic outlets can be one of two types, quick connect and screw connect. In my opinion, the quick connects should be banned by law. The conductors are held in place by a spring contact, as they age the spring loses tension. I'd hazard a guess 8/10 house fires are caused by those stupid outlets.

 

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Bear with me its a long time since I was in the trade over there.

My first question would be what kind of appliance was it behind?  Cooker?  Dryer?  Freezer?

 

Next question would be what size wire gauge is it?   I don't know the metric equivalents of 7.044,  7.029 etc.

 

In my day most cookers didn't have a box behind them.  Just a control on the wall and a short length of 7.044 cable behind them permanently wired in.

In Canada and the US there is a big plug in behind  stoves and dryers so the owner can safely disconnect them.  Wondering if the UK went the same way?

 

Apologies if the above is not helpful.  I'm just curious.

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If it's dead, test and verify, if dead blank it off

If it tests live with no faults you have 3 options 

1 fit a new socket

2 terminate into a connector block and tape it up and cover with a blank plate

3 through crimp each conductor and earth ( live neutral and earth ) and this doesn't need a blank cover and can be plastered over,

All the above conforms to bs 7671.

P.S. make sure to use a voltage tester pen.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, mr rob t said:

P.S. make sure to use a voltage tester pen.

 

I'm not a great fan of these, I said earlier they will not prove dead.

You sound like you have some knowledge so reluctantly I say do not give ambiguous instructions to someone clearly not trained.

You have not proved dead, you cannot say to an untrained person 'test and verify'. You have no idea if the cable is damaged somewhere so will your test include an insulation test, continuity test or a polarity check? You have no idea of the instruments or tools he has available. Quoting the regs tells him nothing...

 

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2 hours ago, loppylugs said:

Bear with me its a long time since I was in the trade over there.

My first question would be what kind of appliance was it behind?  Cooker?  Dryer?  Freezer?

 

 My understanding is no one knows loppy. It may be a circuit that was never completed and doesn't connect in the consumer unit or it may be some clown disconnected an appliance and just left it. 

To me giving advice to someone you don't know about something you haven't seen and has the potential to kill is foolish in the extreme.

Standing in a coroners court and saying 'that's not what I meant' is not a lot of good.

 

To answer your question mate:-

 

Imperial Cable Size Metric Cable Equivalent
1/.044 1.0 mm²
3/.029 1.5 mm²
3/.036 ?
7/.029 2.5 mm²
7/.036 4.0 mm²
7/.044 6.0 mm²
7/.052 10.0 mm²
7/.064 16.0 mm²
19/.044 ?
19/.052 25.0 mm²
19/.064 35.0 mm²

 

For lighting and mains the majority of wiring is in twin and earth solid core, 6mm and above is usually multi- strand T&E (I can't remember if 4mm is multi or not, havn't specced it in years)

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Well in the end it was a bit of a non event.

 

The 'socket' is behind a narrow wine refrigerator fitted between cupboards.  Daughter was intending to take wine fridge when moving as purchaser wasn't interested in paying a fair price for it.

 

So.. when I got there bearing a  used, but functioning and good quality ( MK ) socket, tape, terminal blocks etc.. and tools.. it became obvious that there was insufficient space for me to get both hands into the space to work on anything.  I did manage to get a neon type tester in, but there was no visible bare conductor on live or neutral and I could get no 'reading'.  The earth was accessible but sleeved and showed no reading. The socket was formerly used to supply a dishwasher.  Immediately above was a fused switch unit with four switches.  All checked out as supplying their labelled appliances, including one which supplies a dishwasher in a new position.

I strongly suspect that the short wiring 'drop' to the open socket has been removed/disconnected from the fused switched outlet.

 

Also, it was obvious that removing the wine fridge could only be accomplished by removing its moulded mains plug, which was left no way out from where it was situated.. plugged into yet another socket, fitted inside a cupboard.

 

So.. the conclusion was.. put everything back and leave 'as is'.  I.E. as left by kitchen fitters.  Since I had the misfortune to use the same kitchen fitter, I know him to have the mechanical aptitude of a slug. It will be he who fitted the wine fridge and trapped the plug.   His plumbing skills are abysmal and I could do far better, even though I'm not a plumber.  However, the electrics were done by the same chap who did the electrics in my kitchen and I'm confident that his work is up to standard and safe.. so, we work on the assumption that if he left it like that.. it is safe.  If anyone else decides to take out the wine fridge and start playing with wires.. that is their problem and they are only playing with what was left by the fitters.

 

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Sounds like you got it sorted, Col.  good  Probably best let sleeping dogs lie and all that.

 

Thanks for the info, Brew.  Metric was just coming in when I left the UK 70/71.

I had to quickly get used to American Wire Gauge,  AWG.

# 14  Good to 15 amps used for most lighting and recepticles

# 12 Up to 20 amps .  Mostly separate circuits for dishwashers

 

Code allows only up to 80% loading on any circuit

# 10       30 amps  Clothes dryers mostly

# 8          40 amps stoves / cookers

 

The above is for copper conductors.  You had to go up a size for equivalent aluminum.  Not used much in branch circuits anymore.  Too many problems.

 

We often used # 3 .   Three seperate conductors in conduit for 100 amp services.  These were all 120/240 volt three wire.  120 for lighting and plugs.  240 for stoves dryers.  Funny things happened if the neutral ever failed.   I've never really liked it.  Prefer the UK straight two wire 240v.

So now you have enough info to wire a Canadian house.  US code has a few different rules but is very similar.

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