IAN123.

World War One.

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True - citations for the MM for WW1 are generally not available.  It might get a mention in his Unit's War Diary, or like my Great Uncles MM, be mentioned in his local newspaper.  London Gazette is notoriously difficult to search.  Try searching just using his  Regimental number - nothing else

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Thanks for that Ann.  I'l have another look at some point.

 

I had a major computer crash a few months back and had to 'dump' almost all of my photos onto a back up drive.  They are still there and will remain so until I can fit a new hard drive to my PC, but I'll be able to post Jack's discharge papers then.

 

Col

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DJ360.

I note the photograph of your grandfather has the photographers details pressed into the print 'E P Short'.

I have a very similar photograph of my grandfather at the side of my bed. It doesn't have the embossed mark but the mount is inscribed ' E. P Short. 35 Derby Rd. (Above Cathedral). Nottingham. It looks like they may have sat in the same studio. Sadly my grandfather did not survive and was killed on 21st March 1918. I have all the letters he wrote home. The letters were subject of a lottery funded project the last year where together with local historian Chris Weir we gave a number of talks to local history societies and there was a community drama written and performed. 

https://nlha.org.uk/event/angel-row-history-forum-5/

if your interested search 'present location uncertain' where you'll find details.

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7 hours ago, letsavagoo said:

DJ360.

I note the photograph of your grandfather has the photographers details pressed into the print 'E P Short'.

I have a very similar photograph of my grandfather at the side of my bed. It doesn't have the embossed mark but the mount is inscribed ' E. P Short. 35 Derby Rd. (Above Cathedral). Nottingham. It looks like they may have sat in the same studio. Sadly my grandfather did not survive and was killed on 21st March 1918. I have all the letters he wrote home. The letters were subject of a lottery funded project the last year where together with local historian Chris Weir we gave a number of talks to local history societies and there was a community drama written and performed. 

https://nlha.org.uk/event/angel-row-history-forum-5/

if your interested search 'present location uncertain' where you'll find details.

 

Many thanks for this Letsav.  Nothing wrong with your eyesight!  I couldn't make out the embossed bit until you wrote that, yet it's clear as day now.  I'll look at your link later.  I have another pic of Jack from later.. possibly on the occasion of his discharge from the reserves? He has his MM ribbon on his tunic and has clearly grown from a lad into a young man. It is a slightly timmed postcard with 'Ralty' printed on the back.  I'll try to post it later.  I have to figure out how to recover my old pics from my back up drive without messing anything up.  PC is a bit 'fragile' at the moment and I have a nice shiny new 2Tb drive ready for fitting.

 

Sorry to hear your Grandad didn't survive, especially as relatively close to the Armistice, but those letters must be fascinating and emotive.  I will have a thorough look at your link later.

Thanks again.

 

Col

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received_1825555987531738.jpgWilliam Upton on the right..sadly both these young fellows perished in France.

Taken on Exchange Walk in 1917, the soldier on the left is written as 'Mansfield Pal' on the reverse side.

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Col, your MM record is going to prove difficult in the extreme. It will be in the Gazette as it was only awarded to NCOs and men, officers did were not awarded the MM.

As annswabey said, searching the Gazette is not good; it's also expensive. If it was won in the 1918 push would not have appeared in the Gazette until well into 1919.

If you find the record it will simply be name, rank and number - nothing else.

There are no published lists of citations and the best chance are the operational records of his unit.

 

(The long, long trail: Chris Baker 2016)

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Oh well done! When I visited the site I had the impression it was in the region of £ 80 to gain access, maybe I should pay more attention.

Applogies for giving out duff information.

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The 21st March 1918 when my grandfather was killed has just passed its centenary yet been completely ignored by the press and authorities which is rather surprising as not only were many thousands on both sides killed, it also marks an important event towards the ending of the war.

Following the Russian Revolution in October 1917 Germany and Russia agreed to stop fighting (*1) so Germany was able to move thousands of expierienced troops from the Russian front over to France and Belgium. Germany knew that with the Americans now in the war and getting properly established in numbers they would likely, ultimately loose the war. So bolstered with the extra troops from the Russian front Germany launched their massive spring offensive on the 21st March 1918 over a huge area of the front in an attempt to break the stalemate and carry on to victory.  That's a simplistic synopsis and for various reasons Germany failed and capitulated within months.

So my grandfather was not alone. It's not know how he was killed. He had the misfortune to be in the line where the attack was particularly fierce near Cambrai. In fact his regiment the 2nd 6th South Staffordshire was all but wiped out. No known grave but his name appears on the wall of a Cemetary in Arras and his name is on the organ screen at St Stephens church on Bobbers Mill Road. I keep his medals, 'death plaque' and photograph permanently in the display unit at the side of my bed. 

 

*1 In December 1917, Germany agreed to an armistice and peace talks with Russia, and Lenin sent Leon Trotsky to Brest-Litovsk in Belarus to negotiate a treaty. ... With German troops advancing on St. Petersburg, Lenin authorized the signing of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk on March 3, 1918.

 

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It's a sad fact and an indication of the sheer scale of the numbers killed and wounded that all us have a story of a relative killed or wounded. 

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6 hours ago, annswabey said:

I've found it in the London Gazette and sent it to Col.  It's not expensive -It's free to search the Gazette

 

A lovely gesture indeed Ann.  I'm very very grateful for your efforts. I'd been searching the Gazette on and off for ages, but using his old service number, which was all I had.

 

Col

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26 minutes ago, Brew said:

It's a sad fact and an indication of the sheer scale of the numbers killed and wounded that all us have a story of a relative killed or wounded. 

 

Yes.  I think myself lucky that my Grandad and my Dad returned safe, though my Dad was more than a bit 'damaged' by his experiences.  One of my Grandad's brothers or half brothers died in France and his sister's son died in the far east during WW2 and is buried in a famous Cemetary there.  I don't recall the details but I have them somewhere. The old memory is getting a bit shakey..

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Struggled to get an image of the Gazette entry Ann found.  This is the link.

 

Jack is 9th entry down left hand column.  85932.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31469/supplement/9355/data.htm

 

Col

 

 

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 Here is 50th Battery Royal Field Artillery.  Undated picture but from looking at Jack it might be when he was discharged into the reserve in 1921?  He is clearly older than in the pic I posted above.

 

43236513554_ef8b151078_b.jpg

 

Jack is pictured bottom right, second row, just peeping out behind a couple of others.  He never was one for pushing himself forward.

 

The more I look the more interesting this pic is.  Many have their 'ammo' belts hitched up quite high.  Maybe to avoid covering their medal ribbons?  Others have theirs quite low.  Most men are wearing 'puttees', but one chap, third from left bottom row, is wearing something more like gaiters.  He is also holding some sort of cylinder shaped thing in his right hand.  Telescope?  Dunno. Did he have a different role? The two chaps either side of Jack, bottom right corner, are both wearing full length trousers.

Four men 'front and centre' second row.. all wearing 'Sam Browne' belts and looking every inch the officer.

I'm quite surprised that each man except officers is carrying a 'Bandolier' type ammunition belt which is clearly for rifle rounds.  I hadn't considered the possibility that Artillery men would need to use rifles.. but I suppose anything could happen. A bit of research seems to show that these 'Bandoliers' were preferred to standard waist belts by the Artillery, because of different duties.

 

I find it really weird that I knew Jack for the first 20 years or so of my life.  His war was so long ago.

 

 

 

 

 

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68517.1.640.640.UNPAD.jpgAnother piece of the jigsaw Col!

Look at the brick gable;

'Short & Sons Photographers..this is April 1949..so he carried on with his son.

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9 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 Here is 50th Battery Royal Field Artillery.  Undated picture but from looking at Jack it might be when he was discharged into the reserve in 1921?  He is clearly older than in the pic I posted above.

 

43236513554_ef8b151078_b.jpg

 

 but one chap, third from left bottom row, is wearing something more like gaiters.  He is also holding some sort of cylinder shaped thing in his right hand.  Telescope?  Dunno. Did he have a different role?

 

 

 

 

 

Could it be a bugle Col? If you look it could be the bell tucked towards his stomach and the thin smaller tube coiled along side the thicker object. Not sure one would be used by then but could be traditional on an official photo.

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That's a very good point Lets.  What I've posted is a scan of a photocopy, which was just handy but slightly less well defined than the original.  I've used a magnifier on the original and it does indeed look like a bugle. In fact there is something dangling from the chaps thumb that may be some sort of lanyard attached to the bugle.  The original is pasted onto a card backing which also has a small 'tab' (not shown here) with what looks like 'H.Q . Dewsbury', printed I think, but in an italic script. the 'Q' is a bit of a guess on my part.. it's not at all clear.  So it could just be a photographer's mark, or maybe there really was an RFA HQ in Dewsbury?   I'm assuming that Jack would have been 'stood down' after the armistice?  But he signed on for six years from 1915, so I don't know exactly what he did from 1918 to 1921.

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Hope I dont cause offence to members (no pun intended) on here but I originally typed 'could that be the bell end resting on his stomach' but realised this wasnt wise. Sorry. Couldnt resist. 

Yes I see the lanyard and even the mouthpiece I beleive.

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He does look the youngest on the photo...could be the bugle boy..does that legwear originate from a bugler being on horseback?

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50th Battery RFA was indeed in Dewsbury at one time.

 

In WW1 the RFA were responsible for the horse drawn medium artillery pieces including the 18 pounder so in the first picture your grandfather would be carrying his riding crop and who would not carry it like a swagger stick when having your picture took. Usually the leading horseman carried the crop for signalling to the rest of his teams riders the moves he was going to make just like the RHA King Troop. The RFA weren't as fast as the Royal Horse Artillery but their guns carried a lot more clout and there were more of them

 

Yes a bugle was still in use for close communication in WW1 especially by mounted troops and afterwards it became part of the dress.

 

The artillery have carried small arms for years in fact one of my favourite muzzle loaders was an Enfield .577 Artillery carbine, a shortened version of the 2 band rifle built specially for the artillery back in the mid to late 1800s.

 

These lads would be carrying the.303 short magazine Lee Enfield (SMLE) rifle and I believe (but don't count on this) 100 rounds in clips of 5. The bandolier was carried high to keep it from being fouled by the horse's reins if this happened you could be in a world of pain. My regiment carried the same when they were called up for WW11 and yes they were still on horse back in 1939.

 

As to the chaps in full length trousers I have no idea except to say they weren't horsemen.

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Here is a copy of an eMail sent to me by a cousin in 2015. I'd forgotten about it.  I really must get all of this stuff properly organised while I can still remember my own name...

 

It ties together my Grandad Jack Whyman, his half brother George Taylor Whyman, the 'Nut Yard/Bobber's Mill thread and a couple of pics I posted in another thread.  Was it called 'Nostalgic Old Photos?  All of these people are gradually coming together and becoming a part of a wider story, rather than just black and white photos.

 

Quote


Hi Colin

Thanks so much for the photos they are brilliant it was lovely to see my great grandma Alice Whitehead I could only ever imagine what she looked like it’s a pity you haven’t got one of great grandad John Alices husband. The picture of Great grandad George Pearson with a young woman in white I think It’s his second wife Ethel Alice Bailey because when he married her he was 44 she was 24 also the lady in black sitting in a garden with a baby on her knee must be her as well ?. I also saw in the evening post a couple of weeks ago about 23 men from the 9th Battalion Sherwood Foresters  are remembered on the Menin Gate a memorial to British and Commonwealth First World War dead, in the Belgian town of Ypres. Most of the Foresters died in the early weeks of June 1917 they included 4   a Captain whose courage earned him the Military Cross a Private from Clayton St Nottm  another from Lenton  who survived his wounds in 1916 then was poisoned by gas attack then there was a Pte George Taylor Whyman from Sutton in Ashfield a married man with 4 children born in the Railway House at Bobbers Mill he was killed when a shell burst in his trench this would be the son of Great Grandad John Whyman and his first wife Francis Taylor, Grandad Jack Whyman’s step brother there was also a picture of him but it’s not very clear, I will see if I can take it on my phone and send it to you. Anyway thanks again going now to watch (Who do you think you are).

                                                                                                                Bye for now Jill x

 

 

Col

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These things bug me, the trousers that is, so have enlarge the picture, it is hard to tell without the original.

 

But the guy third from the right I think has a different cap and cap badge, he also carries a Sgt Major stripes as does the guy next to him, there wouldn't be two Sgt Majors in a battery, finally he is missing the lanyard tucked in his left breast pocket.

 

I reckon he is from a different unit on attachment.

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There's at least one more man with three stripes, just to the right of the officers.

 

I have read that the RH&RFA went through lots of reorganisations and redesignations throughout WW1.  Maybe that explains it.  Maybe if it's a pic of the Reserve, they didn't all have full uniform?  I really don't know.

 

Incidentally, in the link to Jack's entry in the London Gazette, a close look at that shows they have printed 'Robber's Mill' not 'Bobber's Mill'.  Frankly, given the amount of admin and organisation required at the time, with no computers, no internet etc., I'm amazed they didn't make more mistakes.

 

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