Coronavirus

[nonnaB 4,895]

To quote Jonab about the CV reports on deaths. Here we do have a breakdown of everything as I imagine other countries do too.

positive + new cases

deaths + new

recovered + update

in intensive therapy + update 

in quarantine .etc

Every day there's an update on tv.

It's not a good thing to watch and we wait with baited breath in case the bad numbers increase, relieved if the news is that deaths are decreasing and happy for those that have recovered. But whichever way you look at it it's a sad and worrying situation that we must all watch what we are doing and to be sensible and have the majority of consideration for everyone around us.

I've been reading comments about Johnson. I think he's a fool but it doesn't mean to say he's not doing enough although I may think it but our govt leaves a lot to desire too, Conte often doesn't specify and leaves gaps that no one knows what to do and to whom it applies. Let's hope it all comes to a happy ending.

[jonab 1,644]

Another report:

"Article by Dominic Lawson in UK Daily Mail 11/05/2020 Here's a question:- How many doctors or nurses working in intensive care in the NHS have died from Covid-19? The answer is: None. This remarkable finding comes from a lengthy report by the Health Service Journal (HSJ). Three of its researchers conducted an exhaustive investigation into 'deaths of NHS staff from Covid-19'. They looked into all of the 119 deaths of NHS and social care staff known at the time They concluded that 'among the doctors ... there were no intensivists or anaesthetists'. And they added: 'Among the nurses ... none were described as intensive care nurses.' In an update on May 5, the HSJ said that this remains the case - and since then, there have been no reports of any deaths of doctors or nurses working in intensive care, although the total number of Covid-19 deaths among NHS and social care employees has risen to 203. The conclusion of the HSJ investigation was that the incidence of Covid-19 mortality within the NHS has faithfully tracked that within the entire working-age population of the UK. Or. as it stated: 'There is a remarkable correlation between the cumulative deaths from Covid-19 in the UK population and among health and social care workers. This calculation, it says, is based on the fact that 'a modest estimate of the patient-facing NHS workforce might be 600.000 to 800,000, which is over 2 per cent of the employed population'. So, they conclude, since 'the deaths among health and social care workers are approximately 0.5 per cent of all Covid-19 deaths, they are not over-represented. The data does not show that healthcare workers are dying at rates proportionately higher than other employed individuals or even the population as a whole. This is cautiously reassuring. A doctor working in an intensive care unit for Covid-19 patients appended a personal 'reader response' at the foot of the report, saying he was 'surprised at the lack of commentary' at the absence of deaths among intensivists. He set out the extraordinary precautions he and colleagues were taking when dealing with Covid-19 patients, and concluded: 'I am more concerned about catching coronavirus on my way to work than when I am there.' In fact, hospitals are rife with Covid-19 infection, potentially lethal to those working there, which explains why the PPE is so essential. It seems to have worked. The issue remains the extent to which all those 'patient-facing* staff in hospitals have had access to adequate protection, not just those conducting medical procedures on patients critically ill with the virus. It was expected that the fatalities among NHS staff would be higher than the average within the working-age population, not just because they would have been travelling to work when others haven't, but also because 16 per cent of the staff are designated BAME (black, Asian and minority ethnic) - significantly higher than the proportion in the population as a whole. A recent survey of almost 7,000 covid-19 patients suggest that black Britons have been three times more likely to become critically ill with Covid-19 and Asians twice as likely, compared to those designated 'white'. In this context, it is all the more remarkable that the rate of Covid-19 mortality within the NHS does not exceed that among the general population. At the same time, the HSJ report gives a shocking insight into the vulnerability of those from black and Asian families: no fewer than 64 of the 119 deaths were those the report describes as "BAME individuals', of whom '53 were not born in the UK". The report is not able to determine the adequacy of the PPE supplied to these individuals, or indeed whether they contracted Covid-19 within the hospitals, rather than in their journey to work or at home - when they would not have been protected. What are we to conclude from this (oddly unnoticed) report by the leading journal in the field? It certainly does not lessen admiration for those who, day-to-day, work exhausting shifts to save the lives of the critically ill with this foul virus, and who endure the trauma of seeing so many of their patients die in harrowing circumstances. But it does suggest that the Government has done a reasonable job in protecting the lives of those health-workers themselves."   I don't know how true this is but interesting nevertheless.

 

[nonnaB 4,895]

Hope it is true but here we are getting very concerned about deaths between Drs and nursing staff. I don't know what the current data is but last time I saw it, it was over 200 +.

[Brew 5,416]

4 hours ago, jonab said:

We want and need a constructive contribution to the national effort to help us out of this crisis. We need hope, optimism and faith, with less negativity

 

This article states with far more eloquence that which I posted on page 30.

 

I never did understand why we Brits have a penchant for moaning, no wonder the Aussies call us whinging poms! It seems nothing is ever good enough for us. If we can't find anything to moan about we'll invent something...

[AfferGorritt 868]

Agree absolutely, Brew. Some people are either being particularly thick in wanting someone to tell them what to do, or have had their bottoms wiped for them for so long that they’ve forgotten how to act for themselves. A product of the Nanny State. How can we formulate a definite, exact plan in a situation that is so fluid? You can bet your life that whatever plan the government came up with (in the face of such uncertainty) there would immediately be howls of protest, pointing fingers and crowds of opportunists just waiting to shout, “told you so”.

I totally despair of this attitude that you have to be TOLD what to do. “Wartime spirit”. BS!

Sorry! My anger has made me a bit less articulate!

[loppylugs 8,429]

Not just the UK guys.  Much of what has been said here applies to the U S too.

 

I don't claim to know what the underlying motive may be but it seems as though the objective of the media is to sow as much fear and division as possible.

[Commo 1,292]

The ruling Elites understand the power of invoking fear in people as a means of social control.

 "No passion so effectively robs the mind of all it's power of acting and reasoning as fear." - Edmund Burke

[DJ360 6,729]

15 hours ago, Brew said:

 

This should be in the politics topic  but I'll just say I absolutely disagree! Corbyn, was as far left as it's possible to go and was credited with being so by more than one political commentator:

 

I'll reply later in the Politics thread... 

 

[DJ360 6,729]

4 hours ago, jonab said:

Another report:

"Article by Dominic Lawson in UK Daily Mail 11/05/2020 Here's a question:- How many doctors or nurses working in intensive care in the NHS have died from Covid-19? The answer is: None. [EDIT] But it does suggest that the Government has done a reasonable job in protecting the lives of those health-workers themselves." I don't know how true this is but interesting nevertheless.

 

Jonab.  I'd always recommend checking your sources... which can give some indication of motivation.

 

Dominic Lawson is the son of former Thatcherite MP and Minister Nigel Lawson.  Like his father he is a rabid Europhobe and has been accused of xenophobic commentary against Germany. It is very ,likely that he will therefore write in support of the present Govt., however obliquely.

In this instance he is writing for the Daily Mail, an unashamedly ..and some would say rabid right wing rag.. responsible for many of the most hateful and frankly inaccurate headlines in British press history. 

 

As for the story. It may well be true that none of the NHS personnel who have died of Covid-19 were working in ICU.  However, I'm not aware that anyone has ever claimed that they were.  This leads me conclude that Lawson is employing a 'Strawman' argument, by attempting to refute a statement which his notional 'opponent(s)' has not actually made.  I leave you to judge his motivations for yourself.

As for whether those unfortunates who have died contracted CV from patients, I suppose we'll never know with any accuracy, but I don't think Lawson's commentary adds anything.

I just think that overall he is looking to deflect criticism from Govt.

[DJ360 6,729]

6 hours ago, jonab said:

"This is a message aimed at our Negative UK Press - including Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC, Robert Peston of ITV, Beth Rigby of Sky, Piers Morgan of ITV, James O'Brien - LBC, BBC News in general and all the other negative UK press and social media. (Et.seq.)

 

Again Jonab, I wonder who is the source of this?  I've seen several versions of this usually emanating from some or other group or body sympathetic to the Conservatives, to Brexit or whatever.

 

I've refuted other versions of this by making a few simple points:

 

1. It is the job of the press to question and challenge Govt.  Once you try to go down the road of silencing the press.. you are on VERY dangerous ground.

2. I didn't hear anyone criticising Kuenssberg and others when they mounted a sustained and vicious campaign of lies and smears against  Labour, Remain, and Corbyn.

3. This stuff is full of 'We don't want'  'We need'  etc.  Just who is 'We'?.. because it doesn't include me.  Who claims to speak on my behalf?

4. I'll admit I'd like to know how many in hospital have recovered.. or at least for it to be spelled out more clearly.  However, the info is not hidden, because we are given figures for numbers of cases, numbers in ICU, Numbers of Deaths etc.. so it should be fairly simple to work out recovery rates.

[DJ360 6,729]

1 hour ago, Commo said:

The ruling Elites understand the power of invoking fear in people as a means of social control.

 "No passion so effectively robs the mind of all it's power of acting and reasoning as fear." - Edmund Burke

 

Yebbut.. Burke was a Tory.. so I don't believe him.. 

 

More seriously, there's another old quote: 

Quote

Rules are made for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.

 

I'm not worried about the wise men.  However.. the fools, many of whom pretty much flouted lock down from the start.. represent a danger to all of us.  Also, many are now placed in an impossible position where they may feel obliged to return to work, or may desperately need to due to lack of funds. Scenes on the London Underground yesterday clearly showed the results.  How are they supposed to decide what to do?

[jonab 1,644]

Don't shoot the messenger. I was merely passing on information which is circulating in the British press and on the Internet. I have no direct involvement in any of this.

[DJ360 6,729]

I never fired a shot Jonab ... I don't even have a gun...   Just hinting that knowing sources is important.

[mercurydancer 1,104]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

 

Again Jonab, I wonder who is the source of this?  I've seen several versions of this usually emanating from some or other group or body sympathetic to the Conservatives, to Brexit or whatever.

 

I've refuted other versions of this by making a few simple points:

 

1. It is the job of the press to question and challenge Govt.  Once you try to go down the road of silencing the press.. you are on VERY dangerous ground.

2. I didn't hear anyone criticising Kuenssberg and others when they mounted a sustained and vicious campaign of lies and smears against  Labour, Remain, and Corbyn.

3. This stuff is full of 'We don't want'  'We need'  etc.  Just who is 'We'?.. because it doesn't include me.  Who claims to speak on my behalf?

4. I'll admit I'd like to know how many in hospital have recovered.. or at least for it to be spelled out more clearly.  However, the info is not hidden, because we are given figures for numbers of cases, numbers in ICU, Numbers of Deaths etc.. so it should be fairly simple to work out recovery rates.

The recovery rate dramatically changes due to age. Up to 40, almost all recover, even  with underlying health issues. I have said before that the illness is not just a bad case of flu, its far worse than that. The Nightingale hospitals basically have one function - to keep a person breathing whilst the virus passes.  After 40 years of age, 40 to 50 it starts increasing, after that,  the risk becomes astronomical, to the point where if the virus gets into a nursing home I cannot see many getting out alive. To give a simple recovery rate would be misleading, Many have said that it is like the flu, it isnt. CV19 is ten times as lethal as any flu we have known. 

[Brew 5,416]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Jonab.  I'd always recommend checking your sources... which can give some indication of motivation.

 

The source, author and motivation  are irrelevances if the facts are correct and I stated I agree we should, like Balloo, look for the positives.

 

"No passion so effectively robs the mind of all it's power of acting and reasoning as fear." - Edmund Burke

 

On a philosophical level the whole world is ruled by fear

[DJ360 6,729]

6 hours ago, mercurydancer said:

The recovery rate dramatically changes due to age.

I think we're at cross purposes MD. I'm very aware of the effects of age, sex and underlying issues etc.  What I was asking for was more clarity on how many of those admitted to hospital with CV are recovering. As I said we get the numbers in hospital , the number of deaths etc.. but nothing about recovery.

 

As an aside, I've just watched a second 'Hospital' special looking at treatment of Covid-19 and filmed in the first weeks of lockdown.  It's horrifying and fascinating in equal measure.  I'd make it compulsory viewing for all of the idiots who still aren't prepared to allow themselves to be 'inconvenienced' by Lockdown.

[DJ360 6,729]

23 hours ago, loppylugs said:

True evangelism can never be enforcement.  True evangelism is just the relaying of certain Biblical facts, possibly with illustration from life today.

 

Dave, I've no problem with Evangelism. I'm impervious to it. I have no problem with people who believe they have a 'message' and want to share it... so long as they accept that not all will.. or should.. agree. 

 

However.., I'd take issue with 'Biblical Facts'.  They are not 'facts' to me.  They are simply stuff someone included in a book. I'm entirely happy for people to believe them without coercion... but they are no more 'facts' than UFOs or Leprechauns.

 

However, ISIS are also 'Evangelists'.  They however don't offer a choice. They are so certain that their interpretation of Islam is correct. that they kill anyone who disagrees. They do worse.. but let's not go there.

 

 

[nonnaB 4,895]

News Covid 19 today. All set for 18 th for the opening of various activities. Bars and restaurants can open but there are some restrictions. For those who have large properties are fortunate because they can allow 4 metres between tables but those with smaller properties? It doesn't bear thinking about my son will have to put 4 tables together to accommodate 2 people. How can they work like that? He is "lucky" in the sense that he has an outside dining area but that will only be able to accommodate 2 tables, inside the dining room maybe 3 tables and he has a cellar that he uses as an overflow but in the summer even with air conditioning gets stifling and is closed except for those wanting to see it and the "crutin " beneath.My daughter has also 3 areas to use but the shape of her restaurant will limit further the amount of tables she can use.Just seen on tv restaurants are complaining, they are sympathizing for the smaller places as they won't be able to make a living and will undoubtably close. People that have struggled for years to build up a successful business all to be knocked down by some stupid restrictions. Rather than make these restrictions it's better to wait a bit. In any case here in Piemonte 18th doesn't include us, we have to wait another week until 24th and you can bet at the end it will eventually be June 1st as previously predicted. We still have to find a firm that will be able to disinfectant everything.

[loppylugs 8,429]

We will have to agree to differ on the matter of facts in the Bible, Col.  For many years I was where you are on the topic.  So I do understand your position.

To develop it further would require getting into such issues as inspiration etc.  I don't think this thread or this site would welcome that so  I guess I'll leave it there.  As we all know such debate can become acrimonious and that's not productive.

[letsavagoo 963]

17 hours ago, DJ360 said:

However, ISIS are also 'Evangelists'.  They however don't offer a choice. They are so certain that their interpretation of Islam is correct. that they kill anyone who disagrees. They do worse.. but let's not go there.

I think that you will find The term ‘evangelism‘ refers specifically to the Christian faith and has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, radical or otherwise. 

Also. Is it asking too much to keep the political commentary where it belongs, in the anything political thread. I realise that there are strongly differing political views between a few members, 2 in particular and coronavirus has turned into a political issue in the media so it is difficult. Perhaps coronavirus comments and discussion with a political basis can be put in the anything political thread. NonnaB’s post above is a fine example of a Coronavirus comment that belongs here.
I’m not looking for a debate here just asking for politics to be where it belongs if possible.

[Brew 5,416]

58 minutes ago, letsavagoo said:

I’m not looking for a debate here just asking for politics to be where it belongs if possible.

 

Fair point...

[DJ360 6,729]

11 hours ago, loppylugs said:

 As we all know such debate can become acrimonious and that's not productive.

 

Dave, you wouldn't get acrimony from me however much we might disagree.. but I respect your wishes.

[DJ360 6,729]

8 hours ago, letsavagoo said:

I think that you will find The term ‘evangelism‘ refers specifically to the Christian faith and has nothing whatsoever to do with Islam, radical or otherwise. 

 

I'll give you that it is mostly seen that way , but there is a  clear evidence that some in Islam wish to spread the word to all, just as some Christians do.  In the final analysis it's the same thing.  Attempts to get others to think the same way that you do.  But.. I'll let it rest there.

 

[DJ360 6,729]

8 hours ago, letsavagoo said:

Also. Is it asking too much to keep the political commentary where it belongs, in the anything political thread.

 

To be fair.. I think we do try to do so.

 

However.. trying to remove politics from any discussion involving the management of our society.. whether it be its health. its economy or whatever.. is to deny reality.  Anyone who thinks that the UK Govt. position on, and management of the CV situation is somehow outside of politics. is mistaken.

[letsavagoo 963]

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

but there is a  clear evidence that some in Islam wish to spread the word to all, just as some Christians do.  In the final analysis it's the same thing.  Attempts to get others to think the same way that you do.  But.. I'll let it rest there.

 

Of course there is but evangelism is specifically a Christian term when talking matters of faith.