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Here's the source Brew.  Hope the link works for you.   Not Fox.  I don't go to Fox much.  Too many ads and then they try to push videos at you.  I prefer to read, I always have.   I realize there are strong opinions on both sides and I try to respect both.  I'm not a doctor..

 

I heard a doctor say the other day,  "wearing a mask is like putting up a chain link fence to keep gnats out of your garden."    Sorry I didn't keep the source for that.  I suspect a lot are under a lot of peer pressure.  Probably even affect their license if they are too vocal.

 

https://www.aier.org/article/open-letter-from-medical-doctors-and-health-professionals-to-all-belgian-authorities-and-all-belgian-media/

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Very interesting article LL, far too much for my little brain to take in though.  Certainly in the beginning, 7 months ago, nobody knew what we were heading into and the World Governments and media have made everyone fearful.  I’m following the guidelines and rules because it’s the law, the only reason I will wear a mask.  

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Same here Lizzie.  I tend to keep a pretty low profile.

One of the things that has bothered me about this is how divisive it has become.  People against governments, families, husbands and wives against each other, we could go on but you know about it.  I'm inclined to think the whole thing, masks social distancing etc, is a deliberate design to divide populations.  We have now lost thousands of jobs and businesses which will not come back.  Real economic collapse could come out of this and the fallout will be worse than the virus itself.  I am not optimistic, to use a phrase, 'We ain't seen nothin' yet.   I sincerely hope I'm wrong.  

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Interesting LL, thanks for that.  It's unusual for doctors to disagree with the WHO both on their projections and in the use of the Trump drug (HCQ) - they recommend it as a cure. The article also claims it is impossible to catch the disease in the open air...?

It seems at odds with many learned articles but I'm not qualified to say which is right.

 

I wrote earlier about the chicken and egg idiom. It applies here as well, was the WHO projected figure a massive overestimate or has the action of governments around the world proved effective in ameliorating the disease? What would situation be like had Covid been allowed to simply run its course?

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The doctor who said a mask is like a chain link fence is being somewhat disingenuous. The mask is primarily to stop infection travelling from an infected person by preventing the spray we all have when we breathe hard or cough/sneeze. True they will not filter the virus it's too small but we do not breathe pure viruses. Masks will filter and dissipate most of the droplets that are the carriers of the virus. Anyone who has worn one will know they become quite moist on the indside from the vapour we breathe out, the outside remains relatively dry.

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56 minutes ago, Brew said:

 

I wrote earlier about the chicken and egg idiom. It applies here as well, was the WHO projected figure a massive overestimate or has the action of governments around the world proved effective in ameliorating the disease? What would situation be like had Covid been allowed to simply run its course?

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The doctor who said a mask is like a chain link fence is being somewhat disingenuous. 

 

To the best of my knowledge I think the virus was allowed to run it's course in Sweden.  As far as I know the outcomes have been pretty much the same as countries that locked down, masked up etc.

 

Concerning the dr's comments.  I think they were pretty tongue in cheek, but it made me smile.

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I hadn't seen anything in depth about Sweden and it's true they are far more relaxed in their approach. Difficult to compare with the UK though. They have a density of 25 people per sq km, the UK has 275 per km. They did take measures to contain the virus but being Swedish they did things differently...  :unsure:

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I think all the restrictions and guidelines are just about trying to slow down the spread  of the virus until there’s an effective vaccine.  
I do agree with Brew’s point about comparison with Sweden not being very helpful because of the differences in population density between there and the UK.  
Here in the fens of East Cambs where much of the area consists of very small towns and much smaller villages, we have very few Covid cases, (but I still follow the current guidelines, cos I’m a good girl, I am!)

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Years ago, when I first went to Sweden, I was discussing what they did during the long winter nights. The rather staid businessman told me that they had cocktail evenings where everyone stood around totally stark naked drinking schnapps. Looking at him my mind boggled!

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Last night our new cases increased to 1950. In an interview some dr or other maybe virologist said that these numbers are nothing to to worry about as the majority were asymptomatic. But they are still able to pass it on. There's a lot of debate about whether it's worth getting your knickers in a twist or not but what and who do you believe. 

Not being patriotic but Italy (after China ) tried to follow what China was doing and eventually after lots of Yoyo effects did work. Most people didn't enjoy lockdown or even having to adjust their lives because of govt orders. It paid off, but now because the schools are open and people have returned from their holidays things are once again going pear shaped. Other nearby countries are not so lucky and are facing probable lockdown. I for one am glad that our lockdown lasted longer than most and schools waited to open. Businesses were staggered to reopen. There are now 700 schools closed because of covid or whatever you want to call it. We have new legislation but I haven't a clue what it is. I will continue doing what I've been doing for the last 6-7 months. I feel sorry for those who are getting high numbers of new cases, but somethings wrong somewhere, what have we missed and what haven't we yet understood. We obviously can't trust anyone to tell us the truth, if there is a truth. We have to believe in something because if we don't we are just going to give in.

Keep safe everyone.

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2 hours ago, philmayfield said:

Years ago, when I first went to Sweden, I was discussing what they did during the long winter nights. The rather staid businessman told me that they had cocktail evenings where everyone stood around totally stark naked drinking schnapps. Looking at him my mind boggled!

Maybe that's the missing secret of how to keep it under control.  :biggrin:

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More seriously, how many have died because they were afraid to go to a doctor or hospital for fear of catching CV?   Thus a treatable condition became a killer for them.  We shall never know.

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Has anyone else been picked ‘randomly’ to take a Covid swab test?  
2 or 3 weeks ago I received a letter from NHS/Imperial College/Dept of Health & Social Care/MORI inviting me to take the test.  I agreed to be involved so they’ve apparently sent the test to me, however I’ve been away for the past 10 days and still am.  I think they want my swabs back before I get home so I won’t be able to do it.  The thing is, this test will only tell them if I’ve GOT Covid.  To me it seems a complete waste of money on their part.  Is it just another way of getting Covid case numbers up to frighten the hell out of us?

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Not personally had one but this sounds like the mass tests in a confined area that were proposed to check the percentage yes or no in a given area.

I'd assume they allow for a percentage not returned.

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Thing is Lizzie, if you did the test and it proved positive, would they send someone round to offer you treatment, or would they add your name to the list of victims and leave it at that?

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56 minutes ago, LizzieM said:

The thing is, this test will only tell them if I’ve GOT Covid.

 

A virus that deadly, you have to have a test to see if you have it :Shock: you could not make this stuff up, a massive over reaction, we are like sheep.  

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I was picked Lizzie. Took 11 days to get a result. A very expensive way to achieve a statistic that is probably ignored anyway.

My wise old boss of many decades ago gave me some advice. When you have a problem that is expensive or time consuming to rectify and with little advantage to the business, do nothing; BUT BE SEEN TO BE DOING SOMETHING! I didn't necessarily take his advice but I often think about it when seeing some 'initiatives' that take place.

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Was your swab test collected or did you post it to them PP?  My letter is at home so can’t check but I have a feeling it said the swab would be collected from my home.  If so ...... yet another ridiculous expense.  

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There was a strict time limit with when the swab was taken, packed, refrigerated and collected. I think the whole 'initiative' was done and dusted a couple of weeks ago.

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Had to have the swab test at the hospital before they would do my recent surgery.  Swab test up the snout!!  Gets near the bone that does.   Needless to say I didn't have it.  Hardly been anywhere for months. 

 

Guy over here got killed in a motorbike crash.  He'd had the CV three months before and recovered.  It was recorded as a CV death.

 

Bikers had a big rally last month at Sturgis, South Dakota 500,000 attended over a week.  Partying etc. as those guys tend to do.  Media was screaming 250,000 would come down with it.  Final total was 57 confirmed cases, no deaths as far as I know.  The 57 cases probably arrived form somewhere else with it.  No contagions as far as I know.

John McArthur's church in L.A. California has over 4000 attendees.  They have had the mayor on their backs trying to close them down.  As of last Sunday not a single reported case and they have been meeting for six weeks or so now.  Ok for bars and abortion clinics to be open.  Essential services you know.

 

 

 

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Believe I mentioned previously that I had to have a swab test before Brighton would accept me prior to my heart surgery. The nursed promised she would avoid the ' gagging area, then with the same probe up my  nostril and I never realised it would go that far ! It were bloody awful, but they don't tell you that when testing. Like the nurse said, " If we did, nobody would have it"

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I'm not claiming an answer here.. just launching a few thoughts.

Firstly, we are currently seeing a broad spectrum of Govt. policy on Covid which is so shot full of holes as to be all but useless.

-Partial 'lock downs', poorly policed.. if at all.
-Porous borders.
-10 p.m. pub closing.. I mean... FFS!!
-Confused messages.
-'U Turns'
-Govt...in typical Post Thatcherite Tory fashion, spraying OUR money around to a patchwork of the same old dodgy outsourcing orgs, 'managed' by the same old bunch of people already promoted and decorated to their level of incompetence. The Profits have already been Privatised. The Debts will of course be Nationalised. Sunak is too smart to come up with words like 'Austerity' again.. but expect 'difficult decisions'.

I haven't worked this through yet.. but it strikes me that it might just have been cheaper to properly protect the elderly and vulnerable.. whilst allowing the younger and generally less vulnerable to get on with things. This might well have also led to less resistance.. because it strikes me that it is mostly younger people who want and need to get on with their lives and their careers. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not blaming the younger element for the current mess.

FWIW.. I really feel for the new crop of undergrads. They have not been served well by anyone. Govt seems oblivious. but then Higher Education is no longer an education system..so much as a money making machine..and it is money which is dictating current policy.

Vaccine? I don't know.. I believe it's true that attempts to find a 'cure' for the Common Cold all failed...and of course the Common Cold is caused by a range of Coronaviruses. But the the Common Cold is a bit of an economic issue..yet rarely, if ever fatal..so 'they' gave up in 1989. Things have moved on considerably in 30+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Cold_Unit

Meanwhile, we have Prof Carl Heneghan of Oxford, presenting a rather different way of looking at things.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/uknews/12719024/no-evidence-of-second-wave-oxford-professor/

As I understand it, Prof. Heneghan is basically saying that we should expect the 'usual' rise in Respiratory infections as kids go back to school... and that this rise is causing panic and stressing the Covid Test and Trace system.

But.. ISTM that if we were observing Social Distancing as recommended.. we would not be seeing quite such a steep 'usual' rise in infections. And in any case. as far as I can tell..Covid spreads via exactly the same mechanisms as 'usual' viral infections, so will presumably be spreading in parallel.

It is. IMHO.. a cop out.. to blame the seasonal rise in 'usual' infections.. for the failure of the Test and Trace system. We have been repeatedly assured by Govt., that the way out of Lockdown is to use their 'World Beating', or 'Moonshot' Tand T system to contain local outbreaks. Yet it is currently failing..as might have been predicted by the involvement of Serco and 'Baroness' Dido Harding... failed Talk Talk boss.

Meanwhile. I'm still largely hiding. I can speak to my Kids and Grandkids on Whatsapp etc. and it's no worse than if they'd emigrated.. (Who would blame them?)

I get out for walks and occasional careful forays into shops.. but no Pubs, Clubs or Public Transport for me. And I do not feel an overbearing need to get pissed in Spain, Greece etc.. I can do that here...and am doing so as I type..

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You"re right BK.  As far as I'm concerned it was worse than the op.

 

Edited to add.  Here in the US  we have also been plagued by riots in various major cities.  The msm has little to say about it.  Rioters do not wear masks or 'social distance'  They do not seem to be any worse effected by CV than anyone else.  While their agenda seems to be opposition to police violence their underlying objectives seem closer to communism to this old hound.

 

The timing of it all seems to be an intent to destroy the economy and the governmental system while the populace stay in 'Lockdown.'    I hate that word,  more appropriate to a prison than a civil society.

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When you look at the amount of money spent to alleviate common cold symptoms it would not be in the drug companies best interests to find a cure!

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1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

When you look at the amount of money spent to alleviate common cold symptoms it would not be in the drug companies best interests to find a cure!

 

Not sure about that. Only a small proportion of the population purchase cold relief medicine, the market for a Covid cure and or a vaccine would be global...

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I downloaded the app on Thursday, got it going (oh dear the English one has a glitch which is being “sorted out” as I type this, strange the Welsh one works okay - no surprise there then). Yesterday I got a txt on my phone from test and trace about it. Went into panic mode thinking I had been near someone who had tested positive. Then I realised I had only been shopping at Lidl and wasn’t near anyone for any length of time, I had being near someone for 15 to 20 minutes triggered the alert  in my mind don’t know if this is right? Looked back at the txt and it was telling me I could download the app now!! 
I see someone from Sage is now saying there will possibly be a third wave as well. Starting to think they are paid to distribute doom and gloom, at least they could let us try (being the operative word) to get the latest outbreaks under control before saying things like this. Really it is obvious that even if it is circulating at low levels, which it never was here really we used the “running hot” technique instead of going for eradication, there is always the probability of it escalating common sense really. 
I had a relative who had to go for a test last Saturday, took a while to get one, the test centre on the Forest didn’t even come up. They eventually got one in Nottingham, when they got there they were the only one there just one bay open. 
Hadn’t heard result by Tuesday morning rang the number given to them, went thru several menus to get to “chasing up test result” pressed 1 to do that and it said “we are not chasing up test results“ and cut them off. Luckily the result came thru later Tuesday and it was negative. Missed 2 days at work and I isolated as well for those days just in case. 
I don’t go out much, take Kai for a walk, go shopping once a week or so, get most online and an occasional visit to the library which is usually quite empty. We do go for something to eat later Saturday afternoon, sit outside though, took a blanket yesterday to put over my legs, I would not go inside wouldn’t feel safe to be honest. Don’t go to pubs so that doesn’t bother me at all, but do miss my 2 clubs that met every week. I am in touch with some of the ladies that also went by phone every week. It has become my routine now and going into autumn/winter I wouldn’t have been out and about as much anyway. I don’t think I will be invigilating at the exams this year, there has been 1 case at the school I do it, but will see how things are when the time comes. But sad about that as I did enjoy it and if I say I can’t do it not sure if I will be asked again, the money came in useful as well.
So all in all I am trying to keep safe, battling with my 8 legged friends and contemplating what colour to do my side room now I have saved the money to get it done. Anyone know a good cheap decorator?

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