Ukraine invasion...

[DJ360 6,728]

Well I believe Belarus has joined the fight, though it might be   just Russin forces entering more strongly via Belarus, which they were doing anyway.

 

Interesting because:

 

Lukashenko is about as popular as rabies in his country and like Putin ignores the electoral process.
This must call into question the loyalty, or at least the commitment of his army.
There's also some evidence that Russian Army morale/organisation/commitment/loyalty is Ukraine iis also compromised.

Far fetched I know.. but what if both armies refused to obey their commanders or maybe even joined forces to defend Ukraine/Belarus against Putin?

 

[Brew 5,411]

1 hour ago, Beekay said:

Where did you see the unedited version of the tank incident Brew?

Strange to say it's now '404', not found. It was an Italian news site

It was shot from the opposite direction, from behind the tank, and high up. The sound was quite clear , there is gunfire and the engine of the tank (rocket launcher) died just before it hit the car. It then reverses off and stands for several moments, clearly more gunfire, but no evidence from where or what is being shot at. before  the video stopped.

[Brew 5,411]

30 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Far fetched I know.. but what if both armies refused to obey their commanders or maybe even joined forces to defend Ukraine/Belarus against Putin?

 

Similar happened in Ukraine (Odessa) on the Potemkin in 1905 so who knows?

[Brew 5,411]

I wonder what the difference is between refugees from Ukraine and those from the war zones in the middle east that makes our Boris change the rules of entry?

[Stuart.C 491]

Caution distressed female heard on the soundtrack.

 

On this video there is gunshot as the tank appears from the right.

The tank veers to the centre line of the road, either the driver is avoiding gunshot or is hit or the tank lost traction on one track trying to get out of the way of the oncoming car

 

On another video there is a military truck that had pulled up in front of the flats under the camera position maybe the shots came from there.

 

There are also reports the Ukraines were chasing Russians who had seized Ukraine vehicles and were trying to get into the centre of the city.

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,728]

26 minutes ago, Brew said:

Similar happened in Ukraine (Odessa) on the Potemkin in 1905 so who knows?

 

As a kid I wondered how the Russian Revolutionaries were armed in 1917.

Of course it soon dawned that they were effectively armed by the Tzar when he sent them into an unpopular war against the West.

[Cliff Ton 10,464]

I think it's quite possible that Putin could be defeated from within.

 

A lot of ordinary Russian people are anti-what's happening; many of them will have friends/relatives/family in Ukraine.

 

How long will Putin manage to keep the armed forces on his side, especially as it's turning into their version of Vietnam.

 

We could end up with a repeat of 1989.

[DJ360 6,728]

Also, whilst China will support Russia simply because it is not the West, and is also a Totalitarian Authoritarian regime, I doubt they would support a  Putin launched Nuclear war. I suspect they will be making appropriate noises in his ear.

[Rob.L 1,088]

There is another lever which may determine China’s position in this - Trade. Their exports to US, Europe and ASEAN absolutely dwarf their dealings with Russia.

 

Modern Chinese leaders are quite pragmatic. Would they risk damaging their economy just to keep Putin in his palace?

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/256350/main-export-partners-for-china-by-export-value/

[DJ360 6,728]

11 hours ago, Brew said:

I wonder what the difference is between refugees from Ukraine and those from the war zones in the middle east that makes our Boris change the rules of entry?

 

If any of us still exist other than as dispersed vapour after this lot settles.. I reckon Johnson and his lot will have much to answer for.  As ever 'oligarchs' get to live here and buy up half of the country.. those in genuine need get to beg for entry.

 

 

[Rob.L 1,088]

And while some politicians seem quite happy to have those billionaire oligarchs here, we appear to be full, especially in Lincolnshire (?) when it comes to refugees, according to one MP - the red faced “Sir” Edward Leigh.

 

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/ukraine-sir-edward-leigh-320259

[DJ360 6,728]

I'd reply to that red faced berk by  telling him that any pressure on housing and jobs is more the result of ten + years of his party's policies, than anything to do with Ukraine.  Sadly, the Forum AUP prevents me from using the correct words to describe him.

[Alpha 176]

Interesting link of Putin's legacy. Try - <opening in link in new window>

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/6SUKicDkumhKLU3A9

[colly0410 1,181]

Reports that they have used thermobaric bombs on an airfield, they were called 'vacuum bombs' in the report. How true this is of course I do not know...

[DJ360 6,728]

Time to seize or freeze ALL Russian  UK assets,  including houses and other property.

I'm not talking about evicting Russians who are here legally, but  at the very least a sort of 'financial internment', until their attitude and links to Putin are prperly determined. Those who are indeed found to be undeniably linked to Putin, or who refuse to condemn his aggression and war crimes, should be deported and their assets used to support Ukraine.

 

After the dust settles..at the latest ..the role of dirty Russian money in the Brexit Campaign and in financially supporting the Tories, UKIP, Farage, etc.

 

Johnson is currently squirming, ducking and weaving under questioning over this in 'the house'.

[Brew 5,411]

21 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Time to seize or freeze ALL Russian  UK assets,  including houses and other property.

 

Why pick on Russia alone? If we are going to behave like totalitarians and act unlawfully, there are plenty of foreign assets that are, either directly or indirectly connected to, or support, militarily aggressive regimes around the world.

[DJ360 6,728]

Indeed, but they are not all currently engaged in almost literally biting the hand that feeds them.

[Brew 5,411]

A surprisingly weak argument Col. There are literally dozens of conflicts around the world that are supported directly or indirectly by our potential adversaries, the most obvious is China, but I doubt anyone is brave enough to seriously upset them.

[DJ360 6,728]

I think Brew, that if my argument is weak.. yours is..in this context..irrelevant.

 

This is not about who  in the World is our 'potential adversary' that is 'supporting conflicts'.

 

This is about people who Govt. has allowed to entrench themselves into the UK economy, to the disquiet of many. It is blatantly obvious that the sudden 'flowering' of Russian so called 'oligarchs'.. (I dispute the use of the term...but that's another issue)..after the collapse of the Soviet Union, reflected the collapse of democracy in Russia almost before it existed. And yet Govts here..and it has to be said mostly Tory Govts.... have been up to their necks in this process, to the extent that now Johnson is making himself look more ridiculous..if that is possible..by suggersting that it will take 18 months to sort out the issue of Russian dirty money here.

Do you recall that you argued that Johnson's Govt could be excused for dishing out our money 'willy nilly' early in the Covid outbreak because it was an 'emergency'. Yet you seem to be arguing that they cannot be equally decisive in freezng Russian assets here in an arguably greater emergency?

They're bent Jim.

[Brew 5,411]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

This is about people who Govt. has allowed to entrench themselves into the UK economy, to the disquiet of many

 

No it's not, that is a domestic political argument and turning the Russian invasion into an attack on the Tories is for another place.

 

To my mind this is about  governments, UK, France, Germany etc. supposedly democratic institutions, that follow the rule of law are now starting  to act in a way that isn't and does not. Pretty much the same way Putin would react.

 

Sanctions against Russia, fine, but beware the backlash.

 

Demonising a few individuals and confiscating assets may play well to Mail readers and the great unwashed, but is hardly legal and helps Ukraine  - how exactly?

 

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Yet you seem to be arguing that they cannot be equally decisive in freezng Russian assets here in an arguably greater emergency?

 

Yes I am, there is a difference between legal, even if history tells us it was ill-advised, actions, and simply kicking down the doors and pillaging property and assets of individuals when you feel like it.

The  pretext that it will somehow help Ukraine is as valid as Putin's excuse for starting it all.

 

Where there is evidence of ill-gotten gains then fine, but arbitrarily seizing property without lawful authority is theft.

Quite what France and Germany are going to do with two mega-million Euro yachts is beyond me, nor do I understand how it benefits anyone. But I suppose it they bang the drums loud enough, and long enough, some will answer the call.

 

Sturgeon has at least sought legal advice on the legality of seizing assets, even if she refused to commit and state her policy on refugees.

 

It's all just a giant smokescreen to cover the fact that we are actually doing sod all of any significance.

 

Where were the sanctions when China invaded Tibet?  Greece invading Cyprus? Or Reagan trying to emulate Thatcher and gain popularity by invading Grenada.

 

 

[letsavagoo 963]

Reading through this should it be in the ‘anything political’ thread on maybe a sub thread of that.

Just a thought…..

[nonnaB 4,895]

This weekend our region is sending packs of food, clothes, toiletries and hopefully medication to a centre in Asti to help with the war in Ukraine. People here are offering accommodations to families too so no doubt we will have a lot of new neighbours. When the population of Chernobyl were evacuated our village took a lot of families in and some are still here. 
 

[DJ360 6,728]

12 hours ago, Brew said:

To my mind this is about  governments, UK, France, Germany etc. supposedly democratic institutions, that follow the rule of law are now starting  to act in a way that isn't and does not. Pretty much the same way Putin would react.

 

Sanctions against Russia, fine, but beware the backlash.

 

Hardly. You know full well that the bulk of oligarchs got their money by cosying up to Putin. Most still have links to him and operate with his implicit approval. Furthermore, they became rich under a system which allowed them to in effect, steal control of their country's resources. (Sound familiar?)

Meanwhile, Putin is, not for the first time, engaged in a criminal invasion of a peaceful neighbouring democracy and committing clear war crimes. He is stealing a country and its resources.

We are sanctioning Russia, but in the real world Putin is supported by numerous crooks/oligarchs who he has 'bought' by allowing and fostering their theft.

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Where there is evidence of ill-gotten gains then fine, but arbitrarily seizing property without lawful authority is theft.

 

Indeed, just as Putin is doing as we speak. And I have not argued that any Russian with UK property and investments should have their assets stolen. I said that their assets should be seized and frozen until it is established whether those actors support Putin, or got the cash by so doing.

Putin has no right to appeal to any sort of Law, since he has placed himself above everything that can be construed as Law and is becoming a more repressive dictator by the day.

 

Also, in trhe UK we have something called the 'Proceeds of Crime Act', which allows for the seizure of assets proven to be acquired through crime.  Clearly it does not technically apply to proceeds of crime committed abroad,(or does it?) but the principle holds.

12 hours ago, Brew said:

It's all just a giant smokescreen to cover the fact that we are actually doing sod all of any significance.

 

There are elements of that in the way that Johnson seems to be treating Russian Dirty Money very leniently, in something resembling the old gag about "I'll give you 24 hours to stop that or I'll write to the Police", but we are implementing sanctions and they are having an effect.

 

We should be doing much more on the ground to help those countries receiving Ukrainian refugees. We should be getting rid of Patel, and that other useless Tory minister who was on the ground in Europe yesterday and at least 10 times failed to answer a simple question about why we cannot emulate the EU model  for allowing Ukraininan refugees free access to UK.

 

We should also be looking at ways to get weaponry to Ukraine, especially combat aircraft and missiles.  That famous convoy of Putin's is a sitting duck for aerial assault.

 

[Brew 5,411]

52 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Hardly. You know full well that the bulk of oligarchs got their money by cosying up to Putin. Most still have links to him and operate with his implicit approval. Furthermore, they became rich under a system which allowed them to in effect, steal control of their country's resources. (Sound familiar?)

 

It sounds familiar, and your evidence is?

Personally, I have no knowledge of whether it's true or not. I, like most have suspicions, but suspicions are not evidence or proof. Abramovich, for instance, along with others, started long before Putin came to power, though he did develop a close personal relationship.

 

55 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Also, in trhe UK we have something called the 'Proceeds of Crime Act', which allows for the seizure of assets proven to be acquired through crime.  Clearly it does not technically apply to proceeds of crime committed abroad,(or does it?) but the principle holds.

 

I'm well aware of the act, but also know it quite clearly depends on legal process, a successful prosecution, not a knee-jerk reaction. Fighting an illegal act by acting illegally is justified.. How?

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

but we are implementing sanctions and they are having an effect.

 

Agreed, but not those used against individuals. They are as I said merely a cover to hide the fact we are doing very little except spout rhetoric and trying to grab a few billion that will no doubt disappear into the treasury coffers.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

We should also be looking at ways to get weaponry to Ukraine, especially combat aircraft and missiles.  That famous convoy of Putin's is a sitting duck for aerial assault.

 

That 'famous convoy' is firmly inside Russian territory.

 

So two points:

Perhaps you are maybe unaware of just how poor the RAF is in terms of operational front line aircraft. We have around 150 and are looking at our smallest fighter force with more reductions to come. Of those we do have many are out of  service waiting for spare parts.  The much vaunted F35 is only 'on order', we don't actually own any and should we go against American 'advice' we won't get them any time soon.

 

Ukraine has 98 fast jets. They will not attack a nice sitting duck and give Putin the excuse he's looking for to unleash more horrors, plus  Russia has almost a thousand fighter jets of various kinds.

 

The other point is sending them aircraft. Who will fly and maintain them without escalating the war into a global conflict?

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,728]