Anything Political

[mary1947 2,079]

Brew

What I was more or less trying to say was "What about the teacher's " To me the message that they are sending out is that they do not trust or belive what the teacher's are saying. This means that the teacher's are not assessing correctly. They exam board are also taking results from mocks not the latest one's but the year before, (just read that in new's paper) as you know your self a lot can happen in a year, the long and the short of it is. What about the teacher's do we trust them to educate the next generation of younster's if not!! we might just as well go back to letting them sweep chimneys, and Charles Dickins time where only the privilege few are educated

[DJ360 6,721]

7 hours ago, Brew said:

Are you sure Williamson was Foreign Secretary? 

 

Ya got me!!  Another of my increasingly frequent 'senior' moments... he was a lousy Defence Secretary.. not Foreign Secretary...

 

7 hours ago, Brew said:

And quite how do those doing the downgrading know the financial status of the students? Would anyone be calling the system into question if they were upgraded?

 

It is obvious. Those in more deprived areas will.. on average, suffer from larger class sizes, more disruptive 'peers' possibly poorer educational resources and assorted detrimental 'social/environmental' factors.  It follows that it is...on average.. more difficult for youngsters in such schools to 'shine'.  It further follows that the application of a 'blanket' moderation of results will have a more detrimental effect on those youngsters.

 

8 hours ago, Brew said:

Some  may not  like it but it is an unescapable fact that those fortunate  few who go to 'private' schools do, on average, better than those who don't. My two went and in my son's class only one did not go to uni, in my daughter's case it was 100%.

 

 

Well yes.. but what you say rather proves my point.  You are in effect saying that attainment in exams is not necessarily a function of the youngster's intelligence/ability and is at least partly a function of other factors which are less likely to be in play in more deprived schools/areas.  Whether the advantage gained is 'unfair', is basically a political/moral judgement and goes to the heart of the overall political debate around education.  It is also very easy to argue that exam attainment is not necessarily a function of 'better' education.

 

8 hours ago, Brew said:

I'm not privy to the ins and outs, the whys and wherefores but presumably the decisions were made against some form of yardstick by people with no personal knowledge of the student or any particular axe to grind.

 

Even if it is not malicious in intent.. it clearly has had an unfair detrimental effect on some.

I stated 'in another place', that in my view.. this years 'system' should err on the side of generosity.  That way, the capable from all sectors are less likely to be unfairly disadvantaged and those who are not really up to it will.. as is normal in university first year..be 'found out'.  Add to this that uni's overall have excess capacity due to the fal iin places taken by 'Foreign' students and this all makes sense to me.

 

It is also generally understood that while Unis can use pretty stringent A level grading requirements to 'weed out' applicants.. especially for extremely popular courses such as Veterinary Science, Medicine etc.. actual degree performance is much less rigidly predicted by A level grade.

[Brew 5,409]

Mary, as an ex educator yourself I'm sure you will agree there are good teachers and there are bad teachers. We also know teachers are judged, rightly or wrongly, on the results gained by their students which makes it easy to see why they are tempted to be a little 'generous'. 

 

Year on year (in 'normal' times), around 40% of students are predicted to gain higher grades than they actually achieve in exams so adjudicators are simply maintaining the status quo, whatever algorithm they use is not that far out.

It is also worth noting that those from disadvantaged backgrounds and circumstances gained more places this year than ever before.

 

The idea of allowing those in the margins to go forward and letting the system weed out the weakest could have traction, in fact I think it an excellent idea - except there will of course be a backlash when they fail. Students will have paid a years fees and be thousands in debt so questions will be asked in the house. "why was it  allowed it to happen" and "will  the minister resign"! We can almost write the headlines now.

 

I don't claim that privately educated children are more intelligent - simply better educated. Whether that results in better exam results (it usually does), is moot.

There are many factors affecting a child's development and school is only part of it. We could write a whole dissertation on that alone.

[letsavagoo 961]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:25 PM, MargieH said:

 (Although a Christian will naturally want to love and care for other people and the world in general, trying to bring about fairness and justice in the world In whatever way they can)

Some of the most appalling, systematic, evil sexual abuse has been and still is committed by members of the church. 

Note.

Should we not have an ‘anything religious’ topic. As an atheist please God, no.

[letsavagoo 961]

On 8/11/2020 at 1:39 PM, philmayfield said:

He has doubts about God but he believes in Jesus apparently. Maybe a bit weird?

Perhaps not so strange as even well known outspoken atheists accept that Jesus as a historical figure more than likely existed but as a mortal man and not the son of God. Obviously.

[philmayfield 6,115]

Private schools don’t tolerate disruptive behaviour in class. If your child is disruptive it is ‘suggested’ to the parents that they may like to move them elsewhere. That usually rectifies the situation. If not, they are expelled.

[philmayfield 6,115]

3 minutes ago, letsavagoo said:

Perhaps not so strange as even well known outspoken atheists accept that Jesus as a historical figure more than likely existed but as a mortal man and not the son of God. Obviously.

Even Robin Hood is a legend and was more recent than Jesus.

[ValuerJim 277]

Does anyone know? Do the markers of the papers, and the moderators, know which school or college they came from?

[Cliff Ton 10,458]

4 hours ago, letsavagoo said:

Should we not have an ‘anything religious’ topic. As an atheist please God, no.

 

I could create a best-of-both-worlds thread titled Anything Political or Religious. That would make it easy to avoid those subjects. 

 

 

[Brew 5,409]

I have no idea what, if any, faith my friends have and I don't really care.

 

Religion usually generates far more emotive and hard line opinions than politics.  Those of the one true faith will always take exception to criticism and often take it as a personal insult.

I would advise treading carefully CT...

 

Having said that the political thread was a risk and more than a few thought it would generate an internecine war, it didn't and seems to be widely read. If nothing else it proves grown-ups can discuss such things without throwing all the toys out of the pram.

[mary1947 2,079]

Brew

I take on board what you say but where doe's equal opps come into it? plus not all students want to go to uni. Don't you think we should have a level playing field. Yes Education, Education it's the right way to go, but let all the students have a fair chance. 

I know that we are know longer with Europe but another example was that there exam system was different to ours, now we all aim for the same result's so why did they not attcept our qualifcation's and us there's. Another example while in hospital the tea lady came around, she was from Turkey and having a conversation with her,  she had come from Turkey for a better life in the UK. then the nitty gritty, she had been to university and had a top degree in science, and there she was a trolly dolly, the good old UK would not accept her qualification. 

IS THERE ANY HOPE AT ALL? 

[Brew 5,409]

Mary you're quite right there should be equal opportunities for all, but where do we go and what do we do that we aren't already doing to try to achieve it.?

 

The present system. imperfect and with considerable problems is  better than it has ever been and despite the knockers, is slowly improving. Past results prove this and even with the swingeing price of a Uni education more youngsters are gaining a degree than at any time in history. In the last 20 years the number of first class degrees has tripled! Someone somewhere must be doing something right!

 

What all the rumpus and dissention about downgrading has effectively hidden from view is the fact the number of A and A* grades awarded this year is more than at ANY time in the last decade with university take up  nearly 3% higher.

 

Sad to say there are those who ignore these facts and will concentrate on any negative angle they can find in order to score a political point, for them the facts or the truth is unimportant and of no consequence.

 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

I would struggle to put it better than this...especially the second paragraph.

 

Quote

droodzilla pfm Member

For God's sake, have a heart! Young people have had their lives turned upside down by the pandemic and have missed out on all the usual celebrations and rites of passage that accompany leaving school. Now, rules they don't understand (does anyone?) are determining their future and, in many cases, ending their dreams of university - especially if they come from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Why not simply accept that "unprecedented times" call for unprecedented charity and compassion? If you're really worried that some "undeserving" pleb might get a place at university well, firstly, I would take a long, hard look at yourself but, secondly, you can always console yourself that the "wheat will be sorted from the chaff" at a later date. I mean, it's not as if a callous, incompetent buffoon could ever rise to a position in government, is it?

 

droodzilla, Yesterday at 1:22 PM Report

#114 Unlike + Quote Reply

You, vince rocker, Sue Pertwee-Tyr and 8 others like this.

 

From:

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/to-parents-of-16-and-18-year-olds.244424/page-6#post-4083887

 

And informative to read the next couple of pages.. especially the contributions by Stephen Bennet and Lordsummit  # 122-124. Both are involved in education and very knowledgeable.

 

On 8/14/2020 at 10:07 PM, Brew said:

Sad to say there are those who ignore these facts and will concentrate on any negative angle they can find in order to score a political point, for them the facts or the truth is unimportant and of no consequence.

 

The facts are that a lot of young people have been badly served by the present Govt.'s failure to ensure that a sensible and compassionate solution to this years exam debacle is found. Producing historical and even current statistics does nothing to right the wrongs that have been done to numerous individuals.

[DJ360 6,721]

Meanwhile.. the 'word on the street' is that Hancock..our esteemed Health Secretary.. is about to announce the abolition of Public Health England.

 

My concern is not so much that PHE is being replaced.. but who it is being replaced by...

 

PHE was largely staffed by health professionals and  experts.

 

It is not clear who will staff the replacement.:   National Institute for Health Protection

 

BUT.  What is clear is that it is to be headed up by failed Talk Talk boss 'Baroness' Dido Harding, who knows the square root of bugger all about health..and seemingly not much about management or business either.. despite her education... but just happens to be a Tory Peer and married to a Tory MP who favours the scrapping of the NHS and its replacement with an insurance based system.

Tories being Tories eh?... Again.

 

More interesting stuff here.. including for e.g a comparison between the CV's of Harding, nd her German counterpart.  You really couldn't make this stuff up.

 

https://www.rki.de/SharedDocs/Lebenslauf/EN/Wieler_Lothar_H_en.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_Harding

Sourced from here:

 

https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/coronavirus-the-new-strain-x.244496/page-13#post-4084454

 

 

 

 

[Stavertongirl 1,719]

After having my ear bent (and nearly burnt off) by a relative who is in the teaching profession for the last few days (I do I’d agree with their rant) I would humbly suggest the reason why the teachers grades were not accepted is because ..... Nicola Sturgeon accepted them after a s**t storm in Scotland about their results which means Mr Johnston won’t touch them with a barge pole.

[Brew 5,409]

The first paragraph is fine until the 'disadvantaged' part - care to define what that means? The second I suspect appeals because of the denigrating remarks aimed at Boris.

We are living in unpreceded times and earlier I agreed with letting the system 'sort the wheat from the chaff'. Some may surprise everyone and beat the odds, many will fall by the wayside.

Who will we blame when, as I also pointed out,  allowing those with poor grades to attend and fail will bring equal howls of protest when they end their uni career with no degree, no job and thousands in debt.

 

Every year thousands are disappointed when they don't receive good enough grades from their exam results, then it's all about 'bad schools, poor teachers, lack of investment and a myriad of other excuses. Now suddenly every teachers in the land is wonderful and fair and dispassionate and accurate in their predictions...

 

There is no mention of the grades that were raised - surprising that.

 

There is, as in the Guardian, a snide swipe at the 'privileged' doing better than those poor ragamuffins from state schools, statistically that's nonsense.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

The facts are that a lot of young people have been badly served by the present Govt.'s failure to ensure that a sensible and compassionate solution to this years exam debacle is found.

 

It is only so in the minds of anti-establishment left wing thinkers. Despite the name calling those who came up with the 'solution' are intelligent well meaning, well qualified members who's in-depth knowledge is greater I suspect than some members of PFM. It is also in their interest for students to do well.

 

That does not of course mean they got it right but not being privy to all the details I can't really comment. I will allow the methodology should be transparent

 

Calling for a 'sensible and compassionate' solution is a typical Labour response, all rhetoric and no substance.  The Labour leader Keir Starmer ( I name him lest we forget who the leader is, he's almost Liberal like in his low visibility and profile), has not actually criticised the downgrading, only the fiasco of allowing some to appeal.

 

Williamson will ultimately carry the can but he's not the author of the algorithm, he didn't mark the papers and like any minister can only act on advice.

[Brew 5,409]

58 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

What is clear is that it is to be headed up by failed Talk Talk boss 'Baroness' Dido Harding, who knows the square root of bugger all about health.

 

Now that really is something to worry about...

'Failed' is hardly accurate though, she is in fact highly successful at what she does (which is mostly self promoting), and gets over 6 million a year for doing it. Hardly a failure and she's a dangerous adversary for those who oppose her and the privatising the NHS. We should not let dislike for the woman and her politics blind us to her abilities.

 

Her tenure at Talktalk was marred by a massive cyber attack, not something she can held responsible for although her handling of the aftermath left a lot to be desired. She did in fact resign after it - and with a very handsome payoff.

[loppylugs 8,427]

Just when you think you've seen it all dept.  I read an item yesterday that said that some uni' math proffs are taking the line that math is based on white racist idealism.  Thus 2+2 aint necessarily four.  I wouldn't like to work with an engineer or fly with a pilot that held to such ideas.   Stop the world I wanna geroff!

[jonab 1,644]

I read that the UK something secretary, Priti Patel, is stirring the merde, calling the French "racists". I've also read that she is very poorly regarded amongst her colleagues who say she's a bully. 

 

Being accusatory like that is not her reason for negotiating with the French in this immigration/refugee matter. She might consider being a little more concilliatory.

[Brew 5,409]

46 minutes ago, jonab said:

read that the UK something secretary, Priti Patel, is stirring the merde, calling the French "racists". I've also read that she is very poorly regarded amongst her colleagues who say she's a bully. 

 

To be fair jonab she didn't actually say that, it was taken out of context. She said "migrants are crossing the channel because they believe France and the French are racist".  Her detractors and the anti-Anglo's on your side of the water quickly seized on it. Never let the truth stand in the way of a good headline eh?

 

She is apparently a bully and has been reported as such by employees on quite a few occasions. Big bad Boris has stamped all over the inquiry into her behaviour.  

To expect her be conciliatory is not something I would hold my breath for, she is far more likely make matters worse than better.

[Brew 5,409]

1 hour ago, loppylugs said:

Thus 2+2 aint necessarily four.

 

This is Dr Laurel Rubel who said:

“math is neutral because 2 + 2 = 4” trope “reeks of white supremacist patriarchy.” Ironically, associating mathematics and basic knowledge with white men actually undermines Marxists’ ostensible goal of empowering women and people of color."

 

Another uni prof, Rochelle Gutierrez , jumped on the bandwagon and  said: "claim that referring to the Pythagorean Theorem with that term involves “colonization and erasure. teaching maths perpetuates white privilege"

 

I would  like to know when their visa to visit Earth expires...

 

 

[loppylugs 8,427]

Same here Brew.  Maybe they need to be fired and see if their dole money adds up.

[DJ360 6,721]

12 hours ago, Brew said:

The first paragraph is fine until the 'disadvantaged' part - care to define what that means? The second I suspect appeals because of the denigrating remarks aimed at Boris.

 

Seriously?  You really expect me to explain that kids from poorer backgrounds with no previous history of academic attainment and attending schools in poorer areas with all that implies.. are disadvantaged, compared to those from leafy middle class areas?

Re: the remarks about Boris.  They are wickedly relevant. and funny

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Who will we blame when, as I also pointed out,  allowing those with poor grades to attend and fail will bring equal howls of protest when they end their uni career with no degree, no job and thousands in debt.

 

Point here is that none of this is 'real'. Nobody has sat exams.  If you sit an exam you have to accept the result.. within reason.  If you don't sit an exam and have your predicted grades 'moderated' downwards.. that is an entirely different matter and a genuine cause for complaint.

 

Your argument re: attending and failing etc.. is weak.  Many drop out in first year already.  It's not new.  But as I already pointed out, the difference between A and C grades is mostly just used as a blunt instrument to weed out candidates.  Plenty of institutions will typically accept low grades in order to fill courses. The correllation between A level grades and Degree performance is pretty weak.

But.. if we are really concerned.and considering the amount of money already chucked around by the Govt. on Covid related issues... it would cost relatively little to scrap fees/repayment of loans or whatever for the 'Class of 2020'

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Every year thousands are disappointed when they don't receive good enough grades from their exam results, then it's all about 'bad schools, poor teachers, lack of investment and a myriad of other excuses. Now suddenly every teachers in the land is wonderful and fair and dispassionate and accurate in their predictions...

 

Sorry.. but it just isn't.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

It is only so in the minds of anti-establishment left wing thinkers.

 

Again.. really?  Anyone who wants a fair solution is 'anti establishment and left wing'?  Tell that to numerous Tory Back Benchers who are also appalled bny the ineptitude of Boris and Co.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

There is, as in the Guardian, a snide swipe at the 'privileged' doing better than those poor ragamuffins from state schools, statistically that's nonsense.

 

You're going to have to come up with the stats to convince me of that.  We are talking ratios here.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Williamson will ultimately carry the can but he's not the author of the algorithm, he didn't mark the papers and like any minister can only act on advice.

 

No!  I agree he will carry the can.. as he should..  We do I think still have a modicum of Ministerial Responsibility'.. though we lost 'Collective Cabinet Responsibility ages ago.  But to claim that he can only act on advice implies a naivety I know you don't possess.  He clearly has no grasp of the issues here..and has chosen to act on the wrong advice.... at best.  He, just like the majority of this shambles of a Govt...is only in post because Brexiteers voted for Johnson. He is one of the people promoted to his level of incompetence after all Tories with any handle on reality were booted out by Johnson pre the last election.

 

This Govt. is indefensible.  I know that from your 'small c' conservative viewpoint that is hard to accept.. but it is nevertheless the case.  They have been incompetent in handling Covid. .. except insofar as they have used it as a convenient excuse for dishing out our money to their friends..in a continuing series of failed contracts around Testing, Testing Apps, PPE .. etc.. etc..

 

They are still pushing on with the agenda that Cummings told Johnson to follow.

 

Scary times ahead.

[DJ360 6,721]

10 hours ago, jonab said:

I read that the UK something secretary, Priti Patel, is stirring the merde, calling the French "racists". I've also read that she is very poorly regarded amongst her colleagues who say she's a bully. 

 

Being accusatory like that is not her reason for negotiating with the French in this immigration/refugee matter. She might consider being a little more concilliatory.

 

 

Patel is another serial failure.. like Williamson.. who imagines that being in post endows her with skill and expertise.  It doesn't.  She is hopeless and a proven bully.

 

These people are dangerous incompetents with no interest in Democracy.  We should all be worried.

[Brew 5,409]

28 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Seriously?  You really expect me to explain that kids from poorer backgrounds with no previous history of academic attainment and attending schools in poorer areas with all that implies.. are disadvantaged, compared to those from leafy middle class areas?

 

Yes. No academic attainment? how did they get on an A level course without the necessary academic attainment?. We can't keep crying foul just because dad drives a second hand Fiesta. The real disadvantaged are those with real disadvantages. Living in poorer areas is not that and implies what?  The schools received the same level of funding and some kids having to walk and some dropped off by mummy in her 4*4 is irrelevant. We are not living in the Victorian age.

There are bad schools (and it's of concern the number is growing), but those in special measures etc are less than 10% and unlikely to have a large number of A level entrants.  

 

51 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Point here is that none of this is 'real'. Nobody has sat exams.  If you sit an exam you have to accept the result.. within reason.  If you don't sit an exam and have your predicted grades 'moderated' downwards.. that is an entirely different matter and a genuine cause for complaint.

 

The point you seem to have missed is it is real, they have sat exams. Like most here before we sat real exams we did our 'mocks'.

Based on those some went down others, which seem to be invisible, went up. The point here is it is  professionally and politically advantageous to have best results possible.

Nobody downgraded anyone unless they had good reason. I made the point which seems to have escaped everyone's notice that A and A* are higher than ever. Higher I suspect than would be achieved in the exams.

 

You mention several times your concern for the poor yet are dismissive of the prospect of 19/20 yr olds being jobless, degree less and thousands in debt. It seems it is of little concern. I don't think those involved will consider it weak.

True  many drop out and  will again this year, so why add to the misery? It's naïve to think there would be no backlash, no accusations of raising false hopes and pushing students onto courses they clearly can't cope with.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Plenty of institutions will typically accept low grades in order to fill courses.

 

Fine if you want to fill Circus, Surf, Hacking and old Norse study courses (they are real courses). But do you really want doctoring by someone who can't spell haemorrhage?

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

The correllation between A level grades and Degree performance is pretty weak.

 

Not sure I agree with that. 

 

Research at Cambridge shows:  A* to a be a good predictor of achieving a first or upper second class degree'

 

The role of the A* grade at A-level as a predictor of university performance -  Nadir Zanini and Carmen Vidal Rodeiro

Paper presented at the Society for Research into Higher Education Annual Conference

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Sorry.. but it just isn't.

 

Just isn't? Of course it is. Every year there are tears at bedtime when the grades are lower than expected and blame for teachers, schools, the government etc are bandied about.

 Tom Rogers of TES wrote a piece saying as much with an emphasis on not blaming teachers.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Anyone who wants a fair solution is 'anti establishment and left wing'? 

 

Bad man! you know very well that's not what I meant. The call was for a sensible and compassionate solution, typical Labour party ideological rhetoric. I was making the point they didn't say what was considered sensible or compassionate or what it is, just sound and fury - no substance. Like Covid, if I may mix a metaphor, it's a political football, a stick with which to beat the government.

Show me a reasonably practicable solution and I'll join in with the band.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

You're going to have to come up with the stats to convince me of that.  We are talking ratios here.

 

A piece, in the Telegraph I think, produced figures showing a clear narrowing of the gap between private and state results on degree courses over a number of years.  2017/18 showed results for private schools actually fell - not by much I grant you but a reduction non the less.

----------------------------

I'm not as you know a Johnson fan and on occasion my prejudices show but I do try and maintain a fair and balanced view.

Covid is unprecedented, history will tell what was right and what was wrong but in the here and now no one is doing any better, some a lot worse. The stupidly named 'app', of which I know very little, doesn't work. It seems they fell foul of the privacy laws among other things.  Typically the UK government has an appalling record in matters of IT.

 

I am suspicious of the Government need to collate the data nationally rather than locally but that's another matter.

 

The disparaging throw away line  about contracts to friends we discussed and put to bed ages ago - it simply isn't true.

-----------------------

Off topic somewhat, are we meant to believe Droodzilla is Lev Landau?