Anything Political


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HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

5 hours ago, philmayfield said:

Alpha’s summary of religion is bang on. It’s original purpose was to put the fear of god onto the population so that they could be more easily controlled. This has carried over today with some of the more intense religions. The others are just cosy little clubs where mainly nice, kind people can come together to act out their harmless rituals which give them comfort. Quite harmless really and they should be left alone.

Phil...  Your post summarizes quite well why my tendency is not to get into a religious discussion on here.  Your mindset seems to be that anyone who takes Christianity in particular seriously is either a charlatan or a fool, maybe both.   In other words, my mind is made up, so shurrup with yer religious nonsense.

I hasten to say that this is your prerogative.  I cannot force anyone to believe as I do and I don't want to.

 

I have always been a great believer in the freedom of the individual to believe as they please.  I was an unbeliever for the first 35 years of my life.  I used to make statements like,  'Everyone knows the Bible is full of errors and contradictions.'  I'd never read it, that was ignorance and arrogance on my part.

 

I am prepared to discuss these issues with anyone who wants to if it can be done in a respectful manner.

Unfortunately that seems to be more or less impossible on a medium like the internet.  The unbeliever wants to ridicule and bring up examples of foolishness on the part of such tv evangelists ect. who are clearly money grubbers and have no interest in the folks they deceive.  Rational discussion of religious issues desolves into accusations of pushing one's religion down their throats.  Friendly discussion thus becomes impossible so I don't go there.

With regard to religious programs on radio and tv.  If one doesn't like 'em.  Turn 'em off.  It is very rare that I watch the religious channels on satellite tv.  A lot of it is drivel and blasphemous.   So I don't go there.

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You have misinterpreted me Loppy.  I’ve said that Christians appear to be nice people who do good in their  communities and are to be applauded for what they do. Some of the communities appear a little odd in their celebrations and their regalia but that’s their traditions and doesn’t usually affect others. Some, like the Catholics have strange ideas about priestly celibacy and there have been scandals probably due to repressed sexuality. I’m all for live and let live. People are free to join which Christian ‘club’ they choose and to carry out good works in their communities. I choose not to belong to clubs or societies and prefer to be a free spirit. Long may Christian religions survive, they are a positive good in society. If one came along where I could see a meeting of minds I might joint. Until that time comes I’ll continue to live my life in a decent, honest and upright manner without any need of a supreme being for guidance.

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I can learn towards 'humanism' but that would mean my joining a sort of 'club' and I prefer to be independent. During these weeks of lock down I've spent much time pondering on religious faiths and deciding they can't all be the true one. I think trying to be good, honest and upright is the path to follow without a need to seek that elusive 'architect of the universe'. I do think there could be something deeper though!

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There seems no point discussing religion, much though I like playing devils advocate.


Unlike politics or science where we are able to present evidence to bolster our position, religion can offer nothing substantial as proof and detractors have little more than anomalies and contradictions as argument.


The Bible (and the numerous versions), as we know it is the result of many translations; inevitably there are differing interpretations that have come from the translators own perceptions or point of view.


It’s an exercise in futility which neither side can win.

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I think Phil is on the right track. Ultimately, we are all free spirits and I don't believe we will be judged by anyone except ourselves. We all know what we are...and it may be something totally opposed to what we lead others to believe we are! You can cheat others but you can't cheat yourself.

 

I have studied most religions over my life time. I cannot subscribe to any of them so, like Phil, I'm on my own but that doesn't bother me. I know where I came from and I know where I'm going and it's a lot better than where I am now, nice as it is! ;)

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Oh dear Phil., and I  were looking forward to a sausage roll and cheese n pineapple on a stick.

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25 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

I know where I’m going. ‘Straight to Crem!’ It’s in my will. No ceremony, no mourners, no ham tea. I’ve even set aside a zero sum of cash to pay for it! No bugger’s getting a free buffet on me!

You may be surprised at how many people will celebrate your death Phil :biggrin: - anyway, I'll see you down there for a pint of lemon juice iknow.

 

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I had hoped there might be some room for discussion but I really doubt it.  Sorry if  i misunderstood you Phil.  Just the perception of an old dog who lost quite a bit of sleep last night, due to thunderstorms,  Again!!!

The Bible translation issue is an interesting one and could lead to pages of stuff.  Even devout Christians disagree on some issues. Thus again I won't get 'dogmatic' about it.  I was taught early in my Christian life that  the Bible is it's own best interpreter.  Eg.  What does it teach about marriage?  Rather than jumping to conclusions based on one verse.  Eg, " Wives obey your husbands."  Look up ALL the verses which address marriage and try to reach a balanced conclusion on what actually does it say.  BTW I'm not looking for a debate on marriage, I just chose it as an example.  It could just as easily be on war, raising kids, use of money, loads of topics.

I guess I'll just have to leave it there.  All I ask is that folks don't think of all Christians as gullible fools or pious hypocrites.  Most of us don't leave our brains at the door.  In our own lttle Baptist church we have a lawyer, a university engineering prof' numerous teachers.  We have several Phds including our pastor.

I've taught a class with several of them in it.  You don't pull the wool over their eyes.  They'll hold your feet to the fire if they sense you are weak in any of the assertions you make.  I once told the lawyer, jokingly.  I'm not on the witness stand you know!

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1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

I know where I’m going. ‘Straight to Crem!’ It’s in my will. No ceremony, no mourners, no ham tea. I’ve even set aside a zero sum of cash to pay for it! No bugger’s getting a free buffet on me!

Aw, c'mon Phil!   You won't be worrying about a few bob then.   :biggrin:

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46 minutes ago, loppylugs said:

Look up ALL the verses which address marriage and try to reach a balanced conclusion on what actually does it say

 

And that's the whole crux of the matter. Are we to take what it says at face value, what someone else thinks it says, or what fits most comfortably with out own predilections? Each may be a different interpretation and all can just as easily be different to the original intent and meaning and therefore wrong.

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As I noted most of it is pretty black and white.  I only chose marriage as 

one example.  The same passage tells me I am to love my wife as Christ loved the church.  He gave His life for the church.  If I love her like that her obedience will follow.  I would never tell her to do something that would harm her.

Naturally there might be differing viewpoints but where meanings are quite clear there should be no major problems.

There will always be those who disagree.  Usually because it impacts their own pre-conceived ideas.  They will perform Biblical gymnastics to make it say something that suits them.

I think it may have been Mark Twain who said words to the effect of.  'It's not the things I don't understand in the Bible that bother me  it's the things I do understand.'

If we consider ALL the references to a topic the intent should become reasonably clear.  That takes work and most don't want to do that so they take one verse that fits their bias and that's it.   That is often how the cults get started.

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I just wanted to throw something in here which I meant to say last night but got side tracked.

 

I see a BIG difference between 'Religion' and 'Faith'.  I do believe that many people have genuine faith in something spiritual.  Some notion of a personal relationship with God, or similar.  I don't share this Faith.. but I think I can understand it.  This is why I am convinced that faith can only be arrived at on a personal level and cannot be imposed.

 

Religion on the other hand.. smacks to me of the triumph of ritual/prescription and mostly organised, prescriptive hierarchies.. over true faith. 

 

Religion is why many of my Catholic friends freely admit to being pursued by guilt all their lives.  It is also why some decide to blow up others.  And oddly, Religion was why I lost what embryonic faith I might have had as a young lad.

 

 

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Amen!  Col.  Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

Religion tends to be rote little reality to it.  That's why the Pharisees hated Jesus so much.  He called 'em out as religious hypocrites and used some of his stongesr words on them.  "Whitewashed tombs, children of  the devil etc.

Faith changes folks from the inside out.  Take the apostle Paul.  He described himself as a Pharisee of the Pharisees.  He persecuted and murdered some Christians by his own admission.  His experience on the Damascus road, Acts 8, changed him forever.

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Taken from one of the best films of all time.... Monty Pythons' Life of Brian and I think it sums up this discussion.

Strangely enough it was shown of TV again a couple of nights ago 

Brian ….. "Look you've got it all wrong. You don't need to follow me. You don't need to follow anybody. You've got to think for yourselves. You're all individuals"

Crowd, in unison.... "Yes we're all individuals"

or

The Irish comedian Dave Allen's closing line "May your god go with you"

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