Anything Political

[Brew 5,413]

There is undoubtedly a far right element in the Tory Party at which is influencing policy.

The fact that they have either successfully hoodwinked, or gained the agreement of, an electoral majority, does not make them right.

 

If you think about it does. If something is not mandated in law then anything the majority believe or agree with makes it right.

The Tories have moved more towards Thatcher’s ideal of giving the people more choice. It was a euphemism for privatising everything she could lay her grubby hands on but whether they were successful or had expertise is debatable. It is equally debatable whether the replacements were inferior and comes down to matters of opinion

 

Frankly, I doubt it would be difficult to create a public sector organisation to build motorways. It's purely a political decision.

 

You’re right. Under a Labour government they could quickly gain the technology for anything they want by simply taking a successful company into public ownership ala Corbyn policy. The fact it would quickly deteriorate as so many nationalised companies in the past have done is more than likely why they don't

You mention smart motorways. Highways England Ltd who are responsible for them are in the public sector, a quango in fact. They are not in the private sector and as you say not a raving success or a great advert for public ownership.

 

I’m not sure of the relevance of the Balfour Beatty reference.

Carillion overextended themselves, had bad debts and crashed. If they were so deep in the Tory back pocket how come HMG didn’t bail them out the same way Labour bailed out the banks?

Everyone knows of the medias appetite for bad news, they never report the successes. Even Serco, G4 were not total disasters and if we look closely the majority of the work is done quietly, effectively and without drama – but we never hear of it.

 

I'm not going to rehearse the whole 'Careers Advisers are crap'

 

Never said they were though in truth until I read some of your posts I often thought so.

I have no knowledge of a careers advisor. We had a careers master who breezed in, gown billowing behind him and carrying a pile of books. He (can’t remember his name), was an active teacher who was given the job on top of his normal duties, (I’ve always supposed), asked me what I thought about knitting and ten minutes later was gone never to be seen again.

 

The fundamental problem with Academies, is that they fail to address the underlying economic and social deprivation which is the actual cause or poor school performance in many areas.

 

The difficulties you mention do have an impact but it’s not down to schools to address and tackle such problems though many try. Doing so can only divert time, effort and money and put a strain on their resources creating a self-perpetuating downward spiral.

True the Tories accepted Labours gift, even welcomed it but they didn’t and don’t run them. The teaching staff leapt at the chance to be masters of their own destiny, something many were more concerned about than education.

 

If the private sector is so intrinsically and universally wonderful, why do the Govt. continually return to handing out contracts to grubby organisations like Serco and all the others? 

 

I hinted at this earlier, not all are sweetness and light but taking a macroscopic view and dismissing the blunders the majority of their work is actually OK. Which is probably why they continue to win contracts? We have for many years under EU directives been obliged, public and private companies alike, to tender for contracts over a certain value. One the requirements to be able to tender is having the financial strength to complete the work. This is one of the reasons why major contracts, HS2, need partnerships. No company could possibly go it alone so smaller enterprises will be automatically excluded from tendering.

 

In the physical sense, I too do not wish him ill.. which is more than can be said for him.. as he was literally recorded on the phone discussing getting someone beaten up.

 

And I have on more than one occasion been heard to say “I’ll bloody kill him” when referring to some miscreant or other. It’s merely an imprecation used to express my displeasure. I don’t know for sure but I lean towards something he said being taken out of context.

 

 

[loppylugs 8,429]

Not a criticism or argument, Brew. Just a question.

I believe you worked for the EMEB.

Do you think it worked better under nationalization or privatized?   Just curious.

[Brew 5,413]

I worked for them for 30 years. When I joined in 1984 I thought I would be joining the industry leader and would need to bring my A game. What  I found was a workforce and management so laid back they were virtually horizontal. Hugley over staffed with a management that quite frankly were world class at looking the other way.

 

After privatisation almost nothing changed for a time, several owners came and went (American, Brits, Germans and back to Americans), until it was split into two when the Germans sold the distribution arm. It is now Cental Networks (American with a hire and fire management style), and I'm told it  is not a good company to work for. Thankfully I left just after they took over.

 

Which was better? depends on your view. EMEB was more robust and had a lot of reserves. Central Networksis  a lean, mean machine that few realise just how close they are to letting the lights go out. Not for nothing are they depsperate to gain control of demand through smart meters.

 

[loppylugs 8,429]

It was pretty laid back when I worked there, late 60s.  I enjoyed working there.

[LizzieM 9,507]

My Mum worked at EMEB headquarters in Arnold for a few years. Should would have retired from there in 1984.  

[Brew 5,413]

Being summoned to Arnold HQ was enough to make strong men cry... it was the holy of holies...

 

 

[DJ360 6,728]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

Is a scurrilous, overblown smear. a few posts ago Col posted  a Pinkfish link that told of the NHSX spending millions of pounds trying to create a test n trace app - it failed miserably.

The NHSX is as far from the private sector as is possible, it's a quango and can call on all the medical expertise needed but still failed,

 

It's quite difficult to 'get behind' NHSX.. I'll agree on that. I'll also agree that NHSX is not 'Private Sector'.  It is, as you say, something akin to a QUANGO.

A 'Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation.'  Its purpose is to manage commissioning of health services within the NHS.  Much of that commissioning is with private organisations.  So, IMO NHSX is mainly a device created by the Tories to enable them to claim, with fingers crossed behind their backs.. that they are 'definitely not privatising the NHS.. Oh no... not at all..'

So maybe Mr Monbiot's view isn't quite such a scurrilous, overblown one?

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

Almost right except not all the money for the T'n'T went into corporate profits and the 'qualified public servants' turned out to be no such thing.

 

Contracts were just handed out to the usual suspects in the main.  As night follows day, it is CERTAIN that large sums of OUR money went directly into the pockets of the owners and shareholders of SERCO etc.  It is the only reason these companies exist.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

Serco and Sitel, independently, also tried to create a tracing system. Serco failed, as usual and the NHSX attempt was abandoned in June. Whilst it's easy to throw scorn at the companies involved, if three big companies fail, to me that's an indication of the difficulty and magnitude of the problem, one of which is the data protection law.

 

Really?  Surely Serco failed because they didn't need to succeed?  That is not what they are in business for.. as has been proven repeatedly.  I keep saying this and will continue to do so.  Serco and others are no more than money laundering scams designed to transfer public money to  select private hands. 

How about this....? ALL Public spending transfers public money to private hands.. in the form of salaries for workers in the contract.  I'm OK with that, but what the SERCOs of this word do is transfer far more to shareholders and executives, who salt it away offshore, while their employees struggle on low wages, topped up where necessary by assorted benefits, which are not paid for by Shareholders or Executives. but by ordinary Taxpayers.  This stuff is so bloody transparent.

 

Data protection law?  This Govt. doesn't give a monkey's about the rights of the individual unless it is politicaly expedient.  Not an issue.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

Benoit (the writer) makes quite snide comments about Dido Harding, (she is in charge of the app develpoment) and her experience with Covid through the Jockey Club, it is in poor taste to say the least. Why do socialists hate CEOs so much?

 

He's not called Benoit...he's called George Monbiot.  He's a well respected journo, writer and political activist. He is the public school educated son of Tories.

Why is his commentary on serial failure Chief Exec Dido Harding, who was raised to the Peerage through political sycophancy and party donations, 'snide'?

Why do you use the term Socialist in the pejorative?

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

'Then we watched aghast as the Cheltenham Festival went ahead'.

 

 No we didn't, many didn't even give it a second thought.

 

Speak for yourself.  As I recall this was around the time you were accusing me of 'panicking', simply because I was taking sensible precautions by social distancing. I, along with many others, was appalled that Cheltenham.. and certain international football fixtures, went ahead.  It is not Rocket Science to conclude that Dido Harding's political connections. notably to Hancock.. influenced this decision.

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

The festival was 10 - 13 March. The WHO did not declare Covid had reached pandemic status until the 11th. On the 10th March the confiirmed infections in the UK was only  373! , it was not until three days after the event the government advised, not insisted, against large gatherings - but we never let the facts get in the way of a good headline do we.

 

Bull.  By that point all except the confirmed brain dead were well aware of the threat and the low 'confirmed cases' were more likely an indicator of lack of testing, than of actual spread.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

He criticises her appointment and at the same time vilifies her for her 'ignorance'. To expect any executive to fully understand all the technology and every aspect of the business is not only naive it's unnecessary. She was CEO of TalkTalk and fell on her sword after they had a substatial data breach. Some will say she desered to be fired, some say she did the honourable thing. Either way it made her an easy target and her opponents a lot of ammunition.

 

It's irrelevant.  She was appointed because she is a Tory Peer.

 

It just so happens that she is married to Penrose.. a Tory MP who:

 

From Wikipedia:

Quote

 

He was opposed to Brexit prior to the 2016 referendum.^[4] Since the result was announced, Penrose supported the official position of his party as an advocate of leaving the European Union.^{[5][better source needed]}

Penrose sits on the advisory board of think tank "1828", which "calls for the NHS to be replaced by an insurance system and for Public Health England to be scrapped."^[6]

 

 

Are you joining any dots yet?

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

To expect any executive to fully understand all the technology and every aspect of the business is not only naive it's unnecessary.

 

I'm quite a fan of Frederick Winslow Taylor... 19th C American Management theorist and often seen as 'Father of Work Study'. Clearly some of his ideas have been overtaken by time and social attitudes, but he was very clear that it was the duty of any manager to aquaint themselves with the issues which faced the workforce.  I don't see how that has changed.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

Having vented his spleen and hatred for all things Tory he blissfully ignores the other big number expenditures. 14 Billion A MONTH for furlough, 15 Billion grants to small firms, 10 Billion to the self-employed. The Office for Budget Responsibility estimates these packages will surpass the 100bn mark by the end of the year.

 

Again.. Irrelevant, because they are not what Monbiot is talking about.  He may agree or disagree with those measures, but we don't know.. and they don't impact on the argument concerning the contracting for Test and Trace etc.

Also worth remembering that this is not 'Government Money'... it is OUR money.. much of it borrowed from US.. (The magic of Public Borrowing. see also.. etc.)

However you cut it.. it will not be Serco, Rishi Sunak, Boris Johnson, etc. etc., who repay this.. it will be 'yer average' Brit.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 6:11 PM, Brew said:

The rest is just the usual left wing innuendo and socialist rhetoric.

 

Thing is. just by saying that, you seek to imply that the opposition to the Tories has no foundation in fact.  What Monbiot is saying is mostly verifiable fact. His interpretation of what those facts mean is equally valid as yours.

You also work from the assumption that 'socialist rhetoric', is universally accepted as a 'bad thing'.

Trust me.. it isn't

[Brew 5,413]

 

NHSX: Its purpose is to manage commissioning of health services within the NHS.

Actually it’s a joint effort between the NHS England, NHS Improvement and the Department of Health and Social Care. It exists to ‘drive the digital transformation of care’, their words not mine. As they are purely aimed at digital technology it’s hard to see why they failed so spectacularly at creating a Track and Trace app. I’m not decrying their ability, I'm recognising it’s far more difficult than first supposed.

So yes Monbiot’s (apologies for getting his name wrong), diatribe was quite a long way below the standard the Guardian claims it upholds. Picking out and laying all the blame on one person and in terms that are hardly worthy of an Oxford zoology graduate from a wealthy family. Some of his articles I agree in principle with some of his articles, it’s his sneering phrases that I find unworthy. You can’t use Sun phrases and then try to intellectualise them by referecing a classic like Marlowe

 

 

Contracts were just handed out to the usual suspects in the main.  As night follows day, it is CERTAIN that large sums of OUR money went directly into the pockets of the owners and shareholders of SERCO etc.  It is the only reason these companies exist.

It is apparent the some old names keep cropping up because no others are big enough or have the expertise to take on such large contracts.

Our money going to shareholders is hardly a surprise, we live in a capitalist society, and if we invest in company shares we expect a return – that’s how it works. Quite why anyone gets bent out of shape about it is a mystery. Fat cat bosses can be greedy but even their huge salaries are a not that big of a chunk out of the turnover. Serco, Sitel exist for one reason only to make profits, again that’s how it works.

 Surely Serco failed because they didn't need to succeed?

Quite plainly nonsense. They attempted to create a product with a potential global market and you think they didn’t take it seriously?

as has been proven repeatedly.  I keep saying this and will continue to do so.  Serco and others are no more than money laundering scams designed to transfer public money to  select private hands. 

The scandal of two rogue directors engaged in a fraud earned Serco a fine of £18M. There have been other controversies and I think the CEO, Rupert Soames, should be removed ASAP. It is a bad company.

That doesn’t mean you can tar them all with the same conspiracy theory brush.

Employees remuneration? they don’t’ particularly struggle on low wages. The National Statistics Office gives the UK average salary as £24,752. The average salary of Serco employees is £24,741, not exactly slave wages. The figures are similar for others in the sector.

The data protection law and protection is and was a major stumbling block when creating the app. It was only the fact users downloaded it voluntarily, and thus agreed to the terms that the Apple/Google app passed the ICO scrutiny.

Why do you use the term Socialist in the pejorative?

For exactly the same reason you refer to the Tories the same way, I’m surprised you asked.

As I recall this was around the time you were accusing me of 'panicking', simply because I was taking sensible precautions by social distancing. 

Yes it was and kudos to you for realising the seriousness ahead of the rest of us. The information available at the time however was telling a different tale and a quarter of a million race goers didn’t agreed the threat was severe enough to worry them. It was and I repeat, a reasonable decision given the available information at the time, as you say there were other mass gatherings that also took place and Harding has nothing at all to do with the football matches.

I offer clear and verifiable evidence and you call it ‘Bull’. To refute my statement the evidence you offer is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, I expected better.

It's irrelevant.  She was appointed because she is a Tory Peer.

It just so happens that she is married to Penrose.. a Tory MP who

 

I like the way you state ‘facts’ you can’t possibly know for sure. It may be true, it may not be true but her husband’s stance on Brexit is really the irrelevance here.

 

I'm quite a fan of Frederick Winslow Taylor

 

Then you should be ashamed of yourself.

Taylorism aka Scientific Management was the art of turning people into automatons as near as possible. Gilbreth was another. No doubt you read of the Japanese pin factory and Sven with the pig iron ingots. The pin factory is documented but there is a suggestion the pig iron story is allegorical. It all hinges on ergonomics and stop watch timing to establish a repeatable routing that is virtually guaranteed to drive you insane.

Managers should recognise workforce issues? Only in as much as they needed to in order to improve productivity and get the workface to work faster. They would recognise physical issues i.e. move the supply bin closer to save time reaching or set the speed of the production line to optimise output, anything else was not their concern. . There was almost no regard for welfare considerations. Their attention to the workforce issues you refer hasn’t changed, they never happened.

 

it will not be Serco, Rishi Sunak, Boris Johnson, etc. etc., who repay this.. it will be 'yer average' Brit

Of course it will be, who do you think should be paying? It’s borrowed in our name and for our benefit despite what the conspiracy says.

Thing is. just by saying that, you seek to imply that the opposition to the Tories has no foundation in fact.  What Monbiot is saying is mostly verifiable fact

Wrong, I don’t imply anything of the sort I hope Starmer turns out to be more than the tailors dummy he is at the moment and ‘mostly’ verifiable is not ‘all’.

Let’s look at a couple of his ‘facts’.

‘The waste and inefficiency caused by privatising essential public health functions is off the scale’. ‘The government’s irrational obsession’…

 Factual? Hardly, just his exaggerated opinion

She worked at McKinsey, Tesco and Sainsbury’s, and as chief executive of TalkTalk. After a disastrous hack of the TalkTalk database, exposing both the details of 4 million customers and Harding’s ignorance of the technology, she acquired the moniker Dido, queen of carnage, a nice pun on Christopher Marlowe’s play.

Harding was responsible the breach? Her ignorance of technology lead to hackers gaining access to the databases? At least she resigned over it even though it was totally beyond her control.

She may not be the greatest ever CEO but perhaps you can tell me why she deserves such sneering vitriol

 

 

[Oztalgian 3,278]

Brew, 

Could you please provide a link to the "Japanese Pin Factory" story/study.

As a manufacturing engineer and process improvement specialist for 40 years I would be interested in reading it.

A google search has not thrown up anything that I think relates to it.

[Brew 5,413]

I can't find a link Oz but this from memory. The study of Taylor, Gibreth, Mazlow et al was part of the Human Resource module on my degree course.

 

As far as I remember it Taylor was on a tour of the factory and noticed that the operatives were reaching across their workstation because the components were spread out and in no partucular order. By simply placing them close and in the correct sequence workers had no reason to move anything more than hands and arms, any other movement was uneccessary. He was in fact adapting the theory first mooted by Adam Smith and production showed a marked increase. Over time the Japanese developed the principle to 'Just in Time' ,  the 'Kanban' system and on to TQM whereby workers are expected to contiually come up with ideas to improve the work they do.

 

The story of the pig iron ingots. He watched a Swedish labourer (Sven, somtimes given as Schmidt), loading ingots by hand into a railway truck. He then offered the possibility of increasing the mans wage if he did EXACTLY what Taylor told him do. Instead of walking to the pile he must stand in the same spot and not move, the ingots were to be delivered to him and he then loaded it into the wagon. It may not be a true story however it was Taylors way of introducing piece work. What I clearly remember was my sense of outrage at his autocratic right wing methodology and disdain for the workers.

 

Quote:

'Workers don’t usually enjoy work. Because of this, they need to be monitored and controlled closely. He called this natural soldiering'.

'In our scheme, we do not ask the initiative of our men. We do not want any initiative. All we want of them is to obey the orders we give them, do what we say, and do it quick'.

 

It is widely aknowledge that his methods benefits the company far more than the workers despite his claim that both gain. Scientific Management is  dehumanizing, workers do not think for themselves, they simply have to follow a few simple instructions as quickly as possible. His time and motion studies casued many industrial upsets in the UK.

 

[DJ360 6,728]

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Actually it’s a joint effort between the NHS England, NHS Improvement and the Department of Health and Social Care.

 

Yes, you are right.  What I meant is that NHS England is a Quango and commissioning body, which I believe was created for the reasons I have stated.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

It is apparent the some old names keep cropping up because no others are big enough or have the expertise to take on such large contracts.

 

I'm not convinced by that.  These companies were set up by people who are.. or have close ties to, Tory politicians, with the express purpose of taking advantage of Tory Govt Privatisation and Outsourcing policies.  It's all far too neat to be anything other than at best, an 'Old Boy Network', and at worst a conspiracy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

The data protection law and protection is and was a major stumbling block when creating the app. It was only the fact users downloaded it voluntarily, and thus agreed to the terms that the Apple/Google app passed the ICO scrutiny.

 

So why could others not do this?

 

 

Quote

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I offer clear and verifiable evidence and you call it ‘Bull’. To refute my statement the evidence you offer is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, I expected better.

 

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I offer clear and verifiable evidence and you call it ‘Bull’. To refute my statement the evidence you offer is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, I expected better.

 

 

Apologies.  My use of 'Bull' as a retort was lazy and impatient... but I still ask what I ask above

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

I like the way you state ‘facts’ you can’t possibly know for sure. It may be true, it may not be true but her husband’s stance on Brexit is really the irrelevance here.

 

I left in the bit about her husbands 'stance' (or lack of?) on Brexit as I think it gives a clue to his character and political conviction. He has also declared his support for an 'Insurance Based NHS', which speaks volumes to me.  Finally, and hilariously in my view.. he is the Tory 'Anti Corruption' guy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

For exactly the same reason you refer to the Tories the same way, I’m surprised you asked.

 

I've stated a number of times that whilst I don't agree with them.. I can understand 'old school' conservative ideas.  However, I  genuinely believe that the current Tory party is ruled and influenced by very nasty people, who do not have the interests of the majority of UK citizens at heart.

 

Maybe I should have asked why you refer to left wing opposition to the current Tory Party as 'socialists', when in reality most (including me) are Social Democrats, or Democratic Socialists. It is only since the rise of the far right in UK politics, that we have seen 'socialism' used in quite such a pejorative, American style manner. I want to see certain socialist principles brought to bear on the running of the country.. most notably in respect of health, social care, education and access to recreation and culture. I'd also favur the Nationalisation of Water and Rail transport.  Beyond that.. I'm happy to live in a mixed economy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Then you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

But I'm not. I stated clearly that some of Taylor's ideas and attitudes are now outdated. So, for e.g., while he recognised, rightly, that efficiency could be improved by examining working methods and practices, I do not agree with his view that there is 'one best way'.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Taylorism aka Scientific Management was the art of turning people into automatons as near as possible. Gilbreth was another. No doubt you read of the Japanese pin factory and Sven with the pig iron ingots. The pin factory is documented but there is a suggestion the pig iron story is allegorical. It all hinges on ergonomics and stop watch timing to establish a repeatable routing that is virtually guaranteed to drive you insane.

 

This is interesting.  You keep telling me that my prejudice is showing, and that my left wing views colour my interpretation of events in UK politics. Clearly to an extent that is true. But now you are doing the same with Taylor.  His thinking was revolutionary and hugely influential, but it was also 'of its time' and soaked with the prevailing social attitudes.  He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive, so decided that it might as well be efficiently done.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

No doubt you read of the Japanese pin factory and Sven with the pig iron ingots. The pin factory is documented but there is a suggestion the pig iron story is allegorical. It all hinges on ergonomics and stop watch timing to establish a repeatable routing that is virtually guaranteed to drive you insane.

 

Nope, I  don't recall either.  But then I do recall other later work by other people.  What I do recall is that Taylor argued that it was not the manager's job to sit in his Ivory Tower dishing out orders, but to get out onto the shop floor to learn what the 'workers' were facing and to identify and resolve any issue which was making their work difficult or inefficient.  You can view that as oppressive, or liberating, depending to some extent on your politics.  And I also recall that Taylor argued that a more efficient and more profitable enterprise was better for all.

 

I could give chapter and verse on my times working in a Lead Refinery, when management did not understand even basic efficiency  and saw only increased effort as the key to increased productivity.

 

What do you think of this?

Quote

Taylor's ideas on management and workers speaks of justice for both parties. "It (the public) will no longer tolerate the type of employer who has his eyes only on dividends alone, who refuses to do his share of the work and who merely cracks the whip over the heads of his workmen and attempts to drive them harder work for low pay. No more will it tolerate tyranny on the part of labour which demands one increase after another in pay and shorter hours while at the same time it becomes less instead of more efficient."

 

I copied it from this: https://www.skymark.com/resources/leaders/taylor.asp

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

 Factual? Hardly, just his exaggerated opinion

 

Factual.  It is huge waste.  Were it enacted by a Labour, or any Public Sector organisation.. we would never hear the last of it from the current 'administration' and no doubt the DM and the Sun.  But the real point here, which you continue to ignore, is that the money was spent by a Govt., which is very willing to dole out extremely lucrative contracts to extremely suspect companies who 'just happen' to be owned and managed by their close friends, relatives and donors.  Arguing that this was a 'necessary response to an emergency' really doesn't wash.  It's been happening since long before Covid.

[radfordred 6,284]

On 6/16/2019 at 3:56 PM, DJ360 said:

More from Pinkfish:Mullardman (DJ360) said

 

I have noticed DJ/Mullard that you do not seem to get involved with your long political arguments, posts, views, quotes, on the bigger fish, PinkFish? 

[philmayfield 6,123]

I see Sir Keir knocked someone off their bike whilst driving in his SUV to visit his tailor. That’s my kind of ‘socialism’. Had it been Jeremy Corbyn he would have been on his pushbike cycling to the Oxfam shop to find a suit.

[Jill Sparrow 10,305]

I should hope your kind of Socialism wasn't swigging a bottle of champagne at the time?

[philmayfield 6,123]

I’ve just discovered it was a Rav 4 so not a full-on SUV then!

[Jill Sparrow 10,305]

Half a bottle of champagne, then?

[DJ360 6,728]

Didn't realise you were stalking me Red!

Not sure whether to be flattered or nervous...

Whatever... I suspect you need to look a little deeper into my 'career' on PFM. I've been posting on there for 17 years and notched up over 24000 posts. Some of them quite long..with quotes and stuff. I don't often do 'arguments', but I do like a discussion.

 

How's this?  https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/the-right-wing-right-of-reply-thread.218794/

 

Or this?  https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/careers-guidance-all-purpose-thread.67667/

 

[radfordred 6,284]

No stalking, it was you that kept posting links to PF so bound to have a look, think I might join, seems quite a few fruit loops I could wind up.

 

Sorry, I can only read the first 2 lines of long posts, I loose interest, but I'm sure some will find your links interesting. 

[Brew 5,413]

Have you always had this inability to concentrate or pay attention for more than thirty seconds RR? 

[radfordred 6,284]

Yeah that's about right Brew, I'm more in & out, not hanging around, short & sharp & sweet 

[Brew 5,413]

I'm not convinced by that.  These companies were set up by people who are.. or have close ties to, Tory politicians, with the express purpose of taking advantage of Tory Govt Privatisation and Outsourcing policies

 

Serco have been around in various guises since 1926, not sure who set them up but you’re  right in a way, the main focus/ market is servicing govt  needs. Not necessarily a bad thing, no different really to parts suppliers aiming at certain manufacturers or companies targeting a particular market

 

So why could others not do this? (TnT app)

 

They probably did. I mentioned it in response to your dismissal of the data protection law. I did not say it was the only reason for the failures.

 

I left in the bit about her husbands 'stance' (or lack of?) on Brexit as I think it gives a clue to his character and political conviction.

 

I don’t say you’re wrong, just muddying the water with an irrelevance.

 

Why I use pejorative terms for socialist and you the same for Tories. You said:

However, I genuinely believe that the current Tory party is ruled and influenced by very nasty people, who do not have the interests of the majority of UK citizens at heart.

Maybe I should have asked why you refer to left wing opposition to the current Tory Party as 'socialists', when in reality most (including me) are Social Democrats, or Democratic Socialists

As I said, it’s for the same reasons, only the name changes.

 

Why do I think of the Labour party as socialist? The Labour party grew out of the union movement and has supported socialist principles and policies since its inception. Throughout Europe socialist movements have used the rose as their emblem and Labour is no different? Every socialist movement I can think of considers itself in a war, worker against management/establishment though couched in easy to swallow terms like class struggle, equality etc.

Who has a flag that is recognised across the world as a socialist symbol? Who at the end of the annual conference sing ‘The Red Flag’? If they are not socialists they do a good imitation.

Since the fall of Corbyn though they are taking a somewhat ‘softer’ approach that I think will stand then in good stead come election time. If Starmer gains a bit more spirit that is…

Socialism was born out of necessity and was hugely successful, now it needs to recognise it has run out of other people money.

 

Factual.  It is huge waste.  Were it enacted by a Labour, or any Public Sector organisation.. we would never hear the last of it from the current 'administration' and no doubt the DM and the Sun.  But the real point here, which you continue to ignore, is that the money was spent by a Govt., which is very willing to dole out extremely lucrative contracts to extremely suspect companies who 'just happen' to be owned and managed by their close friends, relatives and donors.  Arguing that this was a 'necessary response to an emergency' really doesn't wash.  It's been happening since long before Covid.

We’re going round in circles but you are right, lucrative contracts were given out long before Covid came along and peed on our strawberries. And Labour was right up there and can hardly crow…

If Corbyn had been successful the amount he proposed spending make the Tory plans pale into insignificance.
 

 

 

[Brew 5,413]

 https://www.skymark.com/resources/leaders/taylor.asp

This is interesting.  You keep telling me that my prejudice is showing, and that my left wing views colour my interpretation of events in UK politics. Clearly to an extent that is true. But now you are doing the same with Taylor.  His thinking was revolutionary and hugely influential, but it was also 'of its time' and soaked with the prevailing social attitudes.  He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive, so decided that it might as well be efficiently done.

Had that been all I would have a more tolerant attitude towards him. However he was a far right autocrat who saw workers as ‘resources’ to be used and abused as he saw fit in the ruthless pursuit of profit. Simply because something was ‘of its time’ does make it right

In his published work he reiterates his view time and again that workers are inherently idle. As the author of your reference says ‘his attitude towards workers appears barbaric’.

He insisted that workers did not think, ‘I don’t want workers initiative’, only to do as they are told and do it quickly with no backchat’.

Workers development: “so he can work at his fastest pace and maximum efficiency taking into account his natural abilities” meant basically firing anyone thought not capable of the work rate demanded.

He introduced piece work that put workers under tremendous pressure to perform, failure to meet quotas resulted in extreme punitive financial measures.

Managers, I’ve said this before, paid close attention but not to workers conditions or wellbeing but only how to make them more productive. You will I’m sure remember the unrest caused by time and motion studies, it was a big thing with unions in the ‘70s.

Notice all the focus is on workers manual labour and how managers can push workers to produce ever more.

You’ve read the story of the two Pittsburgh factories and how they were making a profit when the production levels were 12tons. His methods raised that to 48tons. A bit of jump and a testament to his ideas and a consequent increase in profit, yet the claimed concern for the workers never quite manifested itself in increased wages. Some were actually earning less and many gave in their notice.

Quote:

In the drive to increase physical efficiency, it considers the worker a part of the production process on a level equal to the tools s/he uses and, as such, strips him or her of all capacity to reason and act autonomously. All thinking and planning is taken over by management, and the worker’s role is reduced to the simple repetition of standardised and simplified work flows in accordance with productivity targets.    Caldari 2007

He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive,

So why not make it less tedious and repetitive? Volvo did.

[catfan 14,793]

I see CORBYN has been suspended by his own party then.

[philmayfield 6,123]

He should suspended by something!

[radfordred 6,284]

Owed Corbyn did have a bit of a soft spot for Hamas