Anything Political

[DJ360 6,721]

Corbyn is no more Anti-Semitic, Racist etc.,than I am... He's also far too honest for his own good.

 

He is simply not 'Leadership' material and is so steeped in his beliefs and convictions that he fails to grasp the need to act strategically in order to gain power.

 

The closest equivalent I can recall would be Michael Foot. An old party 'ideologue' with a good heart but a hopeless political head.

 

I'm more concerned about how we now build a broad left of centre coalition to get rid of the far more prejudiced, far more corrupt and far more racist Tories.

[Brew 5,409]

Col you can't be sure of that, it is at best your considerd opinion.

He has attracted criticism from within the ranks of the Labour from people privy to far more detailed information and experience than you or I - senior memebrs have even resigned over the issue and lack of leadership.

He is widely known for his criticism of Isreal, equally for his support of the Palestinians.

Idealist he may be, single vision he may have but it does not mean he cannot be an anti-semite. We all know of the accusations in the press etc and yet in his  four year term he failed uttlerly to put an end to it or even recognise it. You say he's an honest man and I belive you  but only to a point.

 

This morning he claims anti-semitism is "dramatically overstated" Even now with enough evidence to see the party take the fairly serious step of suspending him, he is still in denial.  It depends of course on the definiton of overstating, yet much of the report seems to blame 'political interference from the leaders office'. I presume in response to the complaints of discrimination.

 

I expect he or his acolytes will accuse the Tories of a smear campaign or rogue elements with his party, anything really except accept responsibility.

I do not accuse him of racism... but I am prepared to believe he was not only awareof the problem but went so far as to turn a blind eye.

 

The old adage of smoke and fire seems appropriate.

[DJ360 6,721]

Brew, it also depends on a proper definition of Anti Semitism. It's a very complex issue.  There are many both within and outside of Labour who want to destroy Corbyn whatever the truth about anti Semitism.

Sadly, there are more than a few who regard criticism of Israeli Govt policy as 'Anti Semitic.'  There is no reasoning with that mentality.

It's also a mistake to think that all Jewish groups are politically neutral.

 

Quote

In November 2018, Marie van der Zyl said, in relation to antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, "Over the summer, we showed how we could keep this issue of antisemitism on the front pages day after day, week after week, exacting a severe political and reputational cost for continued failure."^{[21][non-primary source needed]} In 2019, following Jeremy Corbyn's decision to resign as leader of the Labour Party, the Board asked candidates for the leadership to sign up to ten pledges in order to "end the antisemitism crisis".The pledges included a resolution of outstanding disciplinary cases, lifetime membership bans for some individuals, an independent disciplinary process, full and unconditional adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) Working Definition of Antisemitism, and engagement with the mainstream Jewish community.^[22] Most of the candidates for leader or deputy leader signed up unconditionally.^[23][24]

 

I shall return to this.

[Brew 5,409]

You see many shades of grey where there is only black or white. It is simple to understand,  any action that has a detrimental effect on the basis of race, creed or colour is racism. Equally any inaction that leads to a  persons detriment on the same grounds is also racism,  racism by omission is still racism. By his own admission Corbyn  paid scant heed to numerous complaints and now his dismissiveness has earned him a suspension.  I don't intend rehashing the Israel /Palestine argument, it gets us nowhere. 

I don't think anyone has suggested Jewish groups are politically neutral, some of them are quite vociferous, even extreme in their views.

 

I'm not following your quote, are you offering the van der Zyl piece as evidence of some plot or persecution because I see it in an entirely different light?

[Brew 5,409]

Follow up to the PFM comment...

'It's the usual failure to understand exponential growth. I've plotted deaths over Sept and October across the UK (the hospital data are just England). The exponential nature is clear and, within error, the doubling time matches the hospitalisations at around 2 weeks, meaning a fixed percentage of those people are still dying on the same timescale. These are the fiddled 'deaths at 28 days from a test' figures, so you can add perhaps 15% to the totals retrospectively. As you say, those in hospital or soon to go, will continue to contribute to the growth over the next month, so we will be at 1500-1600 daily deaths at the end of November irrespective of the phoney (I won't even say partial) 'lockdown'. That outstrips the April peak (1000-1100) by some margin... If R were reduced to 1 by December we would still be seeing 1500-1600 deaths per day from then on'

 

Apart from stating the blindingly obvious what is the point other than someone showing of his ability to play with Excel? (I've not shown the graph), It is as I said in the other topic just one long moan, could have, should have, did not and we all knew what needed to done way back when it all started.

 

There are a couple of comments I agree with which were met with deafening silence:

 

NeiLR - perhaps if you had thought that a lockdown was necessary 6 weeks ago you and your mates should have done your civic duty and stopped going down the pub!

 

Woodface - There isn’t one science. WHO were cautioning against further lockdowns just two-weeks ago. I think we should have extended half term to two weeks & closed pubs earlier, but like lots of people with an opinion I am not a scientist.

 

Also someone should tell paulfromcamden using bold 22pt fonts does not add credence to his post.

[DJ360 6,721]

4 minutes ago, Brew said:

Apart from stating the blindingly obvious what is the point

 

To inform.  Not everyone has your.. or even my, grasp of statistics.

[philmayfield 6,115]

Well here’s two guys who aren’t in a clique!  

[DJ360 6,721]

We don't always see eye to eye on political matters..  but we disagree with exceptional civility and decorum.

[Brew 5,409]

See! we can agree on some things!  

[DJ360 6,721]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:48 AM, Brew said:

I'm not following your quote, are you offering the van der Zyl piece as evidence of some plot or persecution because I see it in an entirely different light?

 

 

I made the point previously that not all Jewish groups are politically neutral. I was thinking precisely of the Board of Deputies, of which Marie van der Zyl is President.  The Board of Deputies claim to represent ALL of British Jews but do not.  They are specifically rejected by whole sectors of the British Jewish community and are in fact pretty right wing both in their response to UK politics, and their view of Israeli Govt. policy and actions.  To accept the BOD's commentary without considering its political allegiances is not helpful in my view.

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/expose-who-are-the-board-of-deputies-of-british-jews/

[Brew 5,409]

I previously recogised the fact not all, if indeed any, are neutral however:-

 

van der Zyl as claiming in November 2018 that the Board can “keep this issue of antisemitism on the front pages day after day, week after week, exacting a severe political and reputational cost for continued failure” until Labour are prepared to repent and change.

 

this I see as a legtimate  campaign to maintain pressure on a subject they perceive as wrong. Much like the Socialist Worker and the Morning Star have for years campaigned aginst capitalism, the Daily Express continually disparaging the monarchy and Guardian bashing the Tories.

 

The author points to der Zyls extreme language and, as far as I can see, unfounded accusations re; Corbyn, but then moves on to calling the Tory party guilty of racism without offering a shred of evidence. She herself is not averse the odd hyperbolic statement "Lib Dem filthy liars exposed"  (Labourheartlands,com)

The rest is an irrelevent summation of the BoD history. Sarah van der Zyl is a right winger, Koser Saeed is a left winger and they do not see eye to eye, each is passionate in her views and opinions.

Decrying BoD's claim to represent all Jews and Jewry is the same as claiming the governemt, any government, of representing all the people is false.

 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

I'd argue that the major sticking point between Labour in general and the BOD, under M vd Zyl's current stewardship.. is the BOD insistence that Labour accept the IHRA Definition of AntiSemitism 'In Full and Unconditionally' or words to that effect.

 

You will be aware of the problem with that.  That one of the articles seeks to suppress criticism of the State of Israel and legitimate support for Palestine, by deeming them automaticaly 'antisemitic'.

I would not sign that.  Why should the BOD use political propaganda to silence legitimate discussion of Israeli Govt, Policy and why should the BOD think it has the right to expect Labour Members and Officials to sign up to that.

I would not sign that.

I doubt you would either.

 

[Brew 5,409]

And I'm in complete agreement, I'd tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine but they're on a roll. Those who signed it are either moral cowards or  sycophants trying to claim the high ground. Public figures are particularly sensitive to criticism and accusations of racism, fascism, homophobia, islamophobia and probably a few more 'isms' I've not thought of. The great and the not so good seem to be falling over themselves trying to out do each with how liberal they are and ignore the fact or do not see that society is polarising towards extremes.

 

The BoD are like any other organisation when campaigning or lobbying to further their cause,  they press home any and all advantages.  The fiasco with Labour, (Corbyn), failing to settle the anti- Semitism alleged to have been rampant within the party gave her an open goal - she did not miss.

 

MZ is by her own admission 'like a Rottweiler, except she never lets go' (her words), and ruthless in pursuing her agenda. She will continue to push until someone says enough, it's what leaders are supposed to do.

[DJ360 6,721]

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[DJ360 6,721]

Do we have any opinions on the US election?

[Brew 5,409]

Close at the moment but Florida has Trump with a tiny lead. I seem to remember FL was a crucial state for Bush way back when. The report on the BBC indicates whoever takes FL takes the White House.

If Trump wins he's going to be unbearble, he will take it as a mandate to be even more arrogant and obnoxious.

 

Edit:

I meant to add that the voting is just a show really, at the end of the day it will come down to who has most friends in the Electoral College.

 

Edit edit:

 

Trumps going to win... 

[Oztalgian 3,271]

I hope the people of America see sense and vote out the GOP (Great Orange Plonker)

[radfordred 6,284]

Who gives a flying f**k.

I wonder if the US give our elections any airtime, them yanks all think the Queen runs our gaff. 

 

This is an election 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

For once, I think the Daily Star has got it right with the headline, OLD FART WINS ELECTION!

 

I'll venture a prediction here, with my Mystic Moggie hat on. Whoever wins, he won't see the term out. The stress will kill old Joe and Trump will undoubtedly be knocked off.

 

Whatever the result, the streets will be full of people shouting, rioting  and protesting because they take life far too seriously and have no more sense than to waste precious energy getting wound up about politics.

[DJ360 6,721]

If Trump wins..it just confirms what Europeans have always known. ..
Huge sectors of the American Electorate are politically illiterate, naive , ill educated and deeply prejudiced.
The descendents of those Americans who fought and died to defeat Fascism in Europe and the Pacific..have just voted to enable Fascism in their own country.

[Brew 5,409]

I predicted a Trump win hoping it tempts fate to prove me wrong, as it usually does. This morning he's already paving the way for months of legal arguments that the vote was fraudulent or rigged I some way. He will not let go easily, the blow to his ego will be more than he can stand.

[DJ360 6,721]

I remember one of my lecturers at uni.arguing that Fascism in Europe made a virtue of illogicality. 

Maybe that explains how Trump can simultaneously claim that the election is fraudulent and that he has won. 

[Brew 5,409]

Messing around on the PC I read the MSN main page, not something I look at usually but I did notice a cartoon that said pretty much the same thing. Dear old Mr Farage also popped up holding a poster purporting to show he has wagered £10,000 on a Trump victory. Obviously he still has ambitions of being an ambassador.

 

[DJ360 6,721]

Anthony Scaramucci (sp?)

"I do believe that US Democracy will win

despite Donald Trump..and thank God for that"

 

Amen to that.

[loppylugs 8,427]

It really doesn't matter who wins.  The American dream is well on it's way to becoming a nightmare.  Said as one who has lived here for almost twenty years and sees the writing on the wall.