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I can't find a link Oz but this from memory. The study of Taylor, Gibreth, Mazlow et al was part of the Human Resource module on my degree course.

 

As far as I remember it Taylor was on a tour of the factory and noticed that the operatives were reaching across their workstation because the components were spread out and in no partucular order. By simply placing them close and in the correct sequence workers had no reason to move anything more than hands and arms, any other movement was uneccessary. He was in fact adapting the theory first mooted by Adam Smith and production showed a marked increase. Over time the Japanese developed the principle to 'Just in Time' ,  the 'Kanban' system and on to TQM whereby workers are expected to contiually come up with ideas to improve the work they do.

 

The story of the pig iron ingots. He watched a Swedish labourer (Sven, somtimes given as Schmidt), loading ingots by hand into a railway truck. He then offered the possibility of increasing the mans wage if he did EXACTLY what Taylor told him do. Instead of walking to the pile he must stand in the same spot and not move, the ingots were to be delivered to him and he then loaded it into the wagon. It may not be a true story however it was Taylors way of introducing piece work. What I clearly remember was my sense of outrage at his autocratic right wing methodology and disdain for the workers.

 

Quote:

'Workers don’t usually enjoy work. Because of this, they need to be monitored and controlled closely. He called this natural soldiering'.

'In our scheme, we do not ask the initiative of our men. We do not want any initiative. All we want of them is to obey the orders we give them, do what we say, and do it quick'.

 

It is widely aknowledge that his methods benefits the company far more than the workers despite his claim that both gain. Scientific Management is  dehumanizing, workers do not think for themselves, they simply have to follow a few simple instructions as quickly as possible. His time and motion studies casued many industrial upsets in the UK.

 

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HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Actually it’s a joint effort between the NHS England, NHS Improvement and the Department of Health and Social Care.

 

Yes, you are right.  What I meant is that NHS England is a Quango and commissioning body, which I believe was created for the reasons I have stated.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

It is apparent the some old names keep cropping up because no others are big enough or have the expertise to take on such large contracts.

 

I'm not convinced by that.  These companies were set up by people who are.. or have close ties to, Tory politicians, with the express purpose of taking advantage of Tory Govt Privatisation and Outsourcing policies.  It's all far too neat to be anything other than at best, an 'Old Boy Network', and at worst a conspiracy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

The data protection law and protection is and was a major stumbling block when creating the app. It was only the fact users downloaded it voluntarily, and thus agreed to the terms that the Apple/Google app passed the ICO scrutiny.

 

So why could others not do this?

 

 
Quote

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I offer clear and verifiable evidence and you call it ‘Bull’. To refute my statement the evidence you offer is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, I expected better.

 

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I offer clear and verifiable evidence and you call it ‘Bull’. To refute my statement the evidence you offer is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, I expected better.

 

 

Apologies.  My use of 'Bull' as a retort was lazy and impatient... but I still ask what I ask above

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

I like the way you state ‘facts’ you can’t possibly know for sure. It may be true, it may not be true but her husband’s stance on Brexit is really the irrelevance here.

 

I left in the bit about her husbands 'stance' (or lack of?) on Brexit as I think it gives a clue to his character and political conviction. He has also declared his support for an 'Insurance Based NHS', which speaks volumes to me.  Finally, and hilariously in my view.. he is the Tory 'Anti Corruption' guy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

For exactly the same reason you refer to the Tories the same way, I’m surprised you asked.

 

I've stated a number of times that whilst I don't agree with them.. I can understand 'old school' conservative ideas.  However, I  genuinely believe that the current Tory party is ruled and influenced by very nasty people, who do not have the interests of the majority of UK citizens at heart.

 

Maybe I should have asked why you refer to left wing opposition to the current Tory Party as 'socialists', when in reality most (including me) are Social Democrats, or Democratic Socialists. It is only since the rise of the far right in UK politics, that we have seen 'socialism' used in quite such a pejorative, American style manner. I want to see certain socialist principles brought to bear on the running of the country.. most notably in respect of health, social care, education and access to recreation and culture. I'd also favur the Nationalisation of Water and Rail transport.  Beyond that.. I'm happy to live in a mixed economy.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Then you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

But I'm not. I stated clearly that some of Taylor's ideas and attitudes are now outdated. So, for e.g., while he recognised, rightly, that efficiency could be improved by examining working methods and practices, I do not agree with his view that there is 'one best way'.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Taylorism aka Scientific Management was the art of turning people into automatons as near as possible. Gilbreth was another. No doubt you read of the Japanese pin factory and Sven with the pig iron ingots. The pin factory is documented but there is a suggestion the pig iron story is allegorical. It all hinges on ergonomics and stop watch timing to establish a repeatable routing that is virtually guaranteed to drive you insane.

 

This is interesting.  You keep telling me that my prejudice is showing, and that my left wing views colour my interpretation of events in UK politics. Clearly to an extent that is true. But now you are doing the same with Taylor.  His thinking was revolutionary and hugely influential, but it was also 'of its time' and soaked with the prevailing social attitudes.  He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive, so decided that it might as well be efficiently done.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

No doubt you read of the Japanese pin factory and Sven with the pig iron ingots. The pin factory is documented but there is a suggestion the pig iron story is allegorical. It all hinges on ergonomics and stop watch timing to establish a repeatable routing that is virtually guaranteed to drive you insane.

 

Nope, I  don't recall either.  But then I do recall other later work by other people.  What I do recall is that Taylor argued that it was not the manager's job to sit in his Ivory Tower dishing out orders, but to get out onto the shop floor to learn what the 'workers' were facing and to identify and resolve any issue which was making their work difficult or inefficient.  You can view that as oppressive, or liberating, depending to some extent on your politics.  And I also recall that Taylor argued that a more efficient and more profitable enterprise was better for all.

 

I could give chapter and verse on my times working in a Lead Refinery, when management did not understand even basic efficiency  and saw only increased effort as the key to increased productivity.

 

What do you think of this?

Quote

Taylor's ideas on management and workers speaks of justice for both parties. "It (the public) will no longer tolerate the type of employer who has his eyes only on dividends alone, who refuses to do his share of the work and who merely cracks the whip over the heads of his workmen and attempts to drive them harder work for low pay. No more will it tolerate tyranny on the part of labour which demands one increase after another in pay and shorter hours while at the same time it becomes less instead of more efficient."

 

I copied it from this: https://www.skymark.com/resources/leaders/taylor.asp

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

 Factual? Hardly, just his exaggerated opinion

 

Factual.  It is huge waste.  Were it enacted by a Labour, or any Public Sector organisation.. we would never hear the last of it from the current 'administration' and no doubt the DM and the Sun.  But the real point here, which you continue to ignore, is that the money was spent by a Govt., which is very willing to dole out extremely lucrative contracts to extremely suspect companies who 'just happen' to be owned and managed by their close friends, relatives and donors.  Arguing that this was a 'necessary response to an emergency' really doesn't wash.  It's been happening since long before Covid.

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On 6/16/2019 at 3:56 PM, DJ360 said:

More from Pinkfish:Mullardman (DJ360) said

 

I have noticed DJ/Mullard that you do not seem to get involved with your long political arguments, posts, views, quotes, on the bigger fish, PinkFish? ;)

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Didn't realise you were stalking me Red!

Not sure whether to be flattered or nervous...:blink:

Whatever... I suspect you need to look a little deeper into my 'career' on PFM. I've been posting on there for 17 years and notched up over 24000 posts. Some of them quite long..with quotes and stuff. I don't often do 'arguments', but I do like a discussion.

 

How's this?  https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/the-right-wing-right-of-reply-thread.218794/

 

Or this?  https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/careers-guidance-all-purpose-thread.67667/

 

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No stalking, it was you that kept posting links to PF so bound to have a look, think I might join, seems quite a few fruit loops I could wind up.

 

Sorry, I can only read the first 2 lines of long posts, I loose interest, but I'm sure some will find your links interesting. 

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I'm not convinced by that.  These companies were set up by people who are.. or have close ties to, Tory politicians, with the express purpose of taking advantage of Tory Govt Privatisation and Outsourcing policies

 

Serco have been around in various guises since 1926, not sure who set them up but you’re  right in a way, the main focus/ market is servicing govt  needs. Not necessarily a bad thing, no different really to parts suppliers aiming at certain manufacturers or companies targeting a particular market

 

So why could others not do this? (TnT app)

 

They probably did. I mentioned it in response to your dismissal of the data protection law. I did not say it was the only reason for the failures.

 

I left in the bit about her husbands 'stance' (or lack of?) on Brexit as I think it gives a clue to his character and political conviction.

 

I don’t say you’re wrong, just muddying the water with an irrelevance.

 

Why I use pejorative terms for socialist and you the same for Tories. You said:

However, I genuinely believe that the current Tory party is ruled and influenced by very nasty people, who do not have the interests of the majority of UK citizens at heart.

Maybe I should have asked why you refer to left wing opposition to the current Tory Party as 'socialists', when in reality most (including me) are Social Democrats, or Democratic Socialists

As I said, it’s for the same reasons, only the name changes.

 

Why do I think of the Labour party as socialist? The Labour party grew out of the union movement and has supported socialist principles and policies since its inception. Throughout Europe socialist movements have used the rose as their emblem and Labour is no different? Every socialist movement I can think of considers itself in a war, worker against management/establishment though couched in easy to swallow terms like class struggle, equality etc.

Who has a flag that is recognised across the world as a socialist symbol? Who at the end of the annual conference sing ‘The Red Flag’? If they are not socialists they do a good imitation.

Since the fall of Corbyn though they are taking a somewhat ‘softer’ approach that I think will stand then in good stead come election time. If Starmer gains a bit more spirit that is…

Socialism was born out of necessity and was hugely successful, now it needs to recognise it has run out of other people money.

 

Factual.  It is huge waste.  Were it enacted by a Labour, or any Public Sector organisation.. we would never hear the last of it from the current 'administration' and no doubt the DM and the Sun.  But the real point here, which you continue to ignore, is that the money was spent by a Govt., which is very willing to dole out extremely lucrative contracts to extremely suspect companies who 'just happen' to be owned and managed by their close friends, relatives and donors.  Arguing that this was a 'necessary response to an emergency' really doesn't wash.  It's been happening since long before Covid.

We’re going round in circles but you are right, lucrative contracts were given out long before Covid came along and peed on our strawberries. And Labour was right up there and can hardly crow…

If Corbyn had been successful the amount he proposed spending make the Tory plans pale into insignificance.
 

 

 

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 https://www.skymark.com/resources/leaders/taylor.asp

This is interesting.  You keep telling me that my prejudice is showing, and that my left wing views colour my interpretation of events in UK politics. Clearly to an extent that is true. But now you are doing the same with Taylor.  His thinking was revolutionary and hugely influential, but it was also 'of its time' and soaked with the prevailing social attitudes.  He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive, so decided that it might as well be efficiently done.

Had that been all I would have a more tolerant attitude towards him. However he was a far right autocrat who saw workers as ‘resources’ to be used and abused as he saw fit in the ruthless pursuit of profit. Simply because something was ‘of its time’ does make it right

In his published work he reiterates his view time and again that workers are inherently idle. As the author of your reference says ‘his attitude towards workers appears barbaric’.

He insisted that workers did not think, ‘I don’t want workers initiative’, only to do as they are told and do it quickly with no backchat’.

Workers development: “so he can work at his fastest pace and maximum efficiency taking into account his natural abilities” meant basically firing anyone thought not capable of the work rate demanded.

He introduced piece work that put workers under tremendous pressure to perform, failure to meet quotas resulted in extreme punitive financial measures.

Managers, I’ve said this before, paid close attention but not to workers conditions or wellbeing but only how to make them more productive. You will I’m sure remember the unrest caused by time and motion studies, it was a big thing with unions in the ‘70s.

Notice all the focus is on workers manual labour and how managers can push workers to produce ever more.

You’ve read the story of the two Pittsburgh factories and how they were making a profit when the production levels were 12tons. His methods raised that to 48tons. A bit of jump and a testament to his ideas and a consequent increase in profit, yet the claimed concern for the workers never quite manifested itself in increased wages. Some were actually earning less and many gave in their notice.

Quote:

In the drive to increase physical efficiency, it considers the worker a part of the production process on a level equal to the tools s/he uses and, as such, strips him or her of all capacity to reason and act autonomously. All thinking and planning is taken over by management, and the worker’s role is reduced to the simple repetition of standardised and simplified work flows in accordance with productivity targets.    Caldari 2007

He recognised that the work was tedious and repetitive,

So why not make it less tedious and repetitive? Volvo did.

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Corbyn is no more Anti-Semitic, Racist etc.,than I am... He's also far too honest for his own good.

 

He is simply not 'Leadership' material and is so steeped in his beliefs and convictions that he fails to grasp the need to act strategically in order to gain power.

 

The closest equivalent I can recall would be Michael Foot. An old party 'ideologue' with a good heart but a hopeless political head.

 

I'm more concerned about how we now build a broad left of centre coalition to get rid of the far more prejudiced, far more corrupt and far more racist Tories.

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Col you can't be sure of that, it is at best your considerd opinion.

He has attracted criticism from within the ranks of the Labour from people privy to far more detailed information and experience than you or I - senior memebrs have even resigned over the issue and lack of leadership.

He is widely known for his criticism of Isreal, equally for his support of the Palestinians.

Idealist he may be, single vision he may have but it does not mean he cannot be an anti-semite. We all know of the accusations in the press etc and yet in his  four year term he failed uttlerly to put an end to it or even recognise it. You say he's an honest man and I belive you  but only to a point.

 

This morning he claims anti-semitism is "dramatically overstated" Even now with enough evidence to see the party take the fairly serious step of suspending him, he is still in denial.  It depends of course on the definiton of overstating, yet much of the report seems to blame 'political interference from the leaders office'. I presume in response to the complaints of discrimination.

 

I expect he or his acolytes will accuse the Tories of a smear campaign or rogue elements with his party, anything really except accept responsibility.

I do not accuse him of racism... but I am prepared to believe he was not only awareof the problem but went so far as to turn a blind eye.

 

The old adage of smoke and fire seems appropriate.

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Brew, it also depends on a proper definition of Anti Semitism. It's a very complex issue.  There are many both within and outside of Labour who want to destroy Corbyn whatever the truth about anti Semitism.

Sadly, there are more than a few who regard criticism of Israeli Govt policy as 'Anti Semitic.'  There is no reasoning with that mentality.

It's also a mistake to think that all Jewish groups are politically neutral.

 

Quote

In November 2018, Marie van der Zyl said, in relation to antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, "Over the summer, we showed how we could keep this issue of antisemitism on the front pages day after day, week after week, exacting a severe political and reputational cost for continued failure."[21][non-primary source needed] In 2019, following Jeremy Corbyn's decision to resign as leader of the Labour Party, the Board asked candidates for the leadership to sign up to ten pledges in order to "end the antisemitism crisis".The pledges included a resolution of outstanding disciplinary cases, lifetime membership bans for some individuals, an independent disciplinary process, full and unconditional adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA) Working Definition of Antisemitism, and engagement with the mainstream Jewish community.[22] Most of the candidates for leader or deputy leader signed up unconditionally.[23][24]

 

I shall return to this.

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You see many shades of grey where there is only black or white. It is simple to understand,  any action that has a detrimental effect on the basis of race, creed or colour is racism. Equally any inaction that leads to a  persons detriment on the same grounds is also racism,  racism by omission is still racism. By his own admission Corbyn  paid scant heed to numerous complaints and now his dismissiveness has earned him a suspension.  I don't intend rehashing the Israel /Palestine argument, it gets us nowhere. 

I don't think anyone has suggested Jewish groups are politically neutral, some of them are quite vociferous, even extreme in their views.

 

I'm not following your quote, are you offering the van der Zyl piece as evidence of some plot or persecution because I see it in an entirely different light?

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Follow up to the PFM comment...


'It's the usual failure to understand exponential growth. I've plotted deaths over Sept and October across the UK (the hospital data are just England). The exponential nature is clear and, within error, the doubling time matches the hospitalisations at around 2 weeks, meaning a fixed percentage of those people are still dying on the same timescale. These are the fiddled 'deaths at 28 days from a test' figures, so you can add perhaps 15% to the totals retrospectively. As you say, those in hospital or soon to go, will continue to contribute to the growth over the next month, so we will be at 1500-1600 daily deaths at the end of November irrespective of the phoney (I won't even say partial) 'lockdown'. That outstrips the April peak (1000-1100) by some margin... If R were reduced to 1 by December we would still be seeing 1500-1600 deaths per day from then on'

 

Apart from stating the blindingly obvious what is the point other than someone showing of his ability to play with Excel? (I've not shown the graph), It is as I said in the other topic just one long moan, could have, should have, did not and we all knew what needed to done way back when it all started.

 

There are a couple of comments I agree with which were met with deafening silence:

 

NeiLR - perhaps if you had thought that a lockdown was necessary 6 weeks ago you and your mates should have done your civic duty and stopped going down the pub!

 

Woodface - There isn’t one science. WHO were cautioning against further lockdowns just two-weeks ago. I think we should have extended half term to two weeks & closed pubs earlier, but like lots of people with an opinion I am not a scientist.

 

Also someone should tell paulfromcamden using bold 22pt fonts does not add credence to his post.

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4 minutes ago, Brew said:

Apart from stating the blindingly obvious what is the point

 

To inform.  Not everyone has your.. or even my, grasp of statistics.

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We don't always see eye to eye on political matters..  but we disagree with exceptional civility and decorum. :rolleyes:

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