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So basically what we're saying is it's Corbyn holding up the exit not Johnson. Corbyn seems to be out to sabotage Johnson regardless of what the people want (and the majority want out as we keep being reminded) and he's prepared to play politics whatever the cost. The Guardian at conference reports a 'labour spokesman' as saying 'this can only be settled by an election'

The sub text to that must be 'but not just yet cos we'll lose'...

You think Corbyn is gaining? I seriously think his U turns, lack of leadership and prevarication have done him a great deal of harm.

There is I'm sure a ground swell of opinion now that we should leave whatever the situation is, get it done and over with, people are heartily sick of politics and politicians and their lies.

God help them all if a credible candidate comes along, there would be a landslide like no other..

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HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

No that's not basically what I'm saying. Corbyn and many others including many Conservatives do not believe that the referendum prescribed or supported 'No Deal'. So, Parliament and not just Corbyn, is determined that 'No Deal' will not happen.  Brexit will happen.  A 'No Deal' Brexit will not.  And Corbyn will only try for an election when No Deal is off the table.

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It's spurious argument though. The referendum did not support a 'no deal' if I remember correctly, and I do, there was no mention of deals of any kind on the ballot paper. It was leave or stay, period. What was discussed were lies, lies and damn lies from both camps. 

 

What's beginning to irk me more and more is the fact that if Johnson came to parliament tomorrow and said 'OK chaps we've got a deal'. There would be howls of protest that's 'it's not a good deal, we've been sold down the river. we need a referendum on the details, we can't agree to that we can do better'...and all the while the comrade will snipe from the sidelines as usual whilst having nothing concrete or constructive to offer.

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We were having a quiet drink yesterday until some one mentioned Brexit, they were in their early forties and telling those of us "who are older" how much better our life will be with a labour government. An hour or so later he really wished he was somewhere else, he was told of meals/bedtimes/ washing days that had to be organised around power cuts, checking the bags of rubbish left beside your bins were not rat infested. Plus a few other things maybe people should be reminded more of life under a government ruled by the unions. I am not saying it will be like that again......could be worse.

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Labours policy of borrow, borrow, borrow too. How can you become affluent if you're in constant debt ?

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When needs must, I'm afraid that it's inevitable.

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Think the only politicians that can come out of this with any postive credibility are the few..roughly 18 that voted to remain but are now staunch leave. This equally applies to voters who follow the same principles.

The hi-jacking of the word democratic is shameful.

As for the people's vote..pure spin..first time culprit..I think was Vince Cable ?

Always irritates me how these buzzword phases seem to appear overnight! Then everybodys using them..around for months!.

Chatting with friends earlier, apparently only 9 out of the 11 members of the supreme court were remainers...

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11 hours ago, Gem said:

We were having a quiet drink yesterday until some one mentioned Brexit, they were in their early forties and telling those of us "who are older" how much better our life will be with a labour government. An hour or so later he really wished he was somewhere else, he was told of meals/bedtimes/ washing days that had to be organised around power cuts, checking the bags of rubbish left beside your bins were not rat infested. Plus a few other things maybe people should be reminded more of life under a government ruled by the unions. I am not saying it will be like that again......could be worse.

 

Slight correction Gem. For a number of reasons, the UK economy was very weak throughout the 1970s, resulting in a lot of tensions.  To put the blame for all of this at the door of unions, and by extension ordinary working people.. is both innaccurate and unfair.

 

The power cuts were under the Three Day Week introduced by  Heath, leading a Conservative Govt., in a move which many still regard as unneccessary and just 'politicking'.  The Three Day Week lasted for slightly over three months, rather less than the Ten years of austerity we have endured under the Tories. It's also worth remembering that the whole episode also took place against the back drop of the Oil Crisis.  Also not caused by the Unions.  And finally, not only did an independent 'Pay Board' support the Miner's case over pay, but the country voted Heath out at an election called by him.

 

The 'winter of discontent' was also set up by a Govt. (in this case a Labour one..) trying to limit inflation by holding down wages, especially in the Public Sector.  So.. yet again, the ordinary people of the country were expected to shoulder the burden of addressing a problem ( inflation) not of their making. I don't recall anyone attempting to control inflation by controlling prices.  So.. once again, the bulk of working people, who were reacting to.. rather than causing.. a problem, were the ones made to pay.

I don't deny that there were some unpleasant (and very patchy) side effects of the strikes as part of the 'Winter of Discontent' , but I was working throughout, in deepest Merseyside, and can honestly say that I saw absolutely nothing at all amiss, much less the so-called 'chaos' portrayed by the media and the Tories at the time.

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The unions were a long way from being innocent bystanders. You may have seen nothing amiss in your working environment, I personally travelled the length and breadth of the land and saw plenty. At that time I had dealings with every car manufacturer (except Aston and Morgan) and saw the chaos Red Robbo and the unions caused. Same with the docks. It's no surprise to me Liverpool and London docks lost out to Southampton and Felixstowe. The were the most militant, idle swines I've ever had the misfortune to deal with!.

I don't claim unions were totally to blame but they were a major part of it and their actions helped form the Blessed Margerets determination to break them.

 

 

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Seems to me after years of work in the UK and NA.  That the real culprits in much of our troubles are the big money men and bankers who are able to manipulate markets to their advantage.  Then the media is used to turn us against each other when most of us are just trying to pay the rent / mortgage and feed and clothe our families.  In the meantime inflation eats away at our buying power and savings.  Assuming we even have any.  Eventually the house of cards come down in a depression, possibly followed by a war.  I'm very much afraid that we are heading into depression 2.0.  I hope I'm wrong about the war part.

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Another way to interpret it LL is that they simply take advantage of situations Joe public create with their petty squabbles and greed. It goes to the Freidman maxim 'the only business of business is business'. Many disagree with it. I for one, and what he's basically saying is businesses only reason for existence is the ruthless pursuit of profit and any form of social responsibility is non of their concern. Sadly many still see things that way and when an opportunity arises they grasp it with both hands and damn the consequences.

The latest Thomas Cook crash is a prime example. There are players in the market that could save the firm, save jobs etc. but they know if they let it go to the wall the company assets can be had for a fraction and added to their balance sheet plus the high street suddenly has thousands more customers to compete for. People losing their livelihood? Sorry nowt to do wi us...

There are some who plot and scheme in advance of course there are  (as everyone does) but I think the majority take advantage of situations not of their making.

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On 9/26/2019 at 10:32 AM, Brew said:

The unions were a long way from being innocent bystanders. You may have seen nothing amiss in your working environment, I personally travelled the length and breadth of the land and saw plenty. At that time I had dealings with every car manufacturer (except Aston and Morgan) and saw the chaos Red Robbo and the unions caused. Same with the docks. It's no surprise to me Liverpool and London docks lost out to Southampton and Felixstowe. The were the most militant, idle swines I've ever had the misfortune to deal with!.

I don't claim unions were totally to blame but they were a major part of it and their actions helped form the Blessed Margerets determination to break them.

 

 

 

What I meant Brew, was that I saw nothing amiss at all.  I saw no piles of uncollected rubbish.. or unburied corpses.  I've accepted that there was some of this, but as ever, the press, which I repeat was and is almost exclusively owned by right wing conservative and often foreign individuals, exaggerated the whole thing for their own political ends.

 

Obviously I'm not going to sit here and defend everything done by unions and you are right that some union behaviour was extreme.  But, I still contend that much of the union disquiet in the 1970s was perfectly reasonable as their membership saw wages eroded by inflation which they did not cause.  Let's also not forget that a lot of the trouble for the UK car industry was a result of poor design, and poor management. 

And as I've also been at pains to point out more than once.  Why is it that it is always the ordinary people of this country who have to suffer the consequences of whatever mistakes are made by Govt, or whatever the international financial operators and crooks land us with?  Why the three day week?  Why specifically public sector pay restraint?  Why Austerity?

 

What annoys me so much is when people take up a totally anti-union stance, which leads to the whole binary view of politics which gets translated as Unions& Labour Bad, Tories Good.  It's a pretty limited and frankly ill-informed view.

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That was much of my point DJ.  I would argue that the media have much to answer for in causing dissent.  They play both sides and then go out to video the marches, riots and hostility that they are often responsible for.

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Some truth in that LL.  I'm personally getting sick of the way the BBC keeps doing 'vox pop' interviews to accompany lunchtime and evening news.  And yet, despite the almost 50/50% split over Brexit, they only seem able to find those who 'Fink it's abart time Parlimunt stopped blockin' Brexit.. so we can get ahht an' stop ver EU from bossin' us abaahht'..innit'.

 

The view that the EU is 'bossin' us abaht', is never challenged and neither is the idea that Parliament is 'blocking' Brexit.  Which it isn't.

 

That unnutterably dishonest scheming ""$*&++ Dominic Cummings was confronted in the corridors of Parliament yesterday, about the extreme language which his mouthpiece Johnson has employed in the house.  Cumming..who looked frankly scared and uncomfortable, responded' "Well get Brexit done then".  Cummings seems oblivious to the fact that it is his co-conspiratorJohnson who led the Brexit campaign, who said it would be easy, who said the EU would be begging for us to make a deal wiith them..etc.  Also Johnson who was recently elected by his party on a promise that he would 'Get Brexit done', yet he has done nothing and he is making no effort to achieve a 'deal' with the EU.  He is a crook.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I want neither a general election nor a Labour Govt. at present.  I want to see Doris Johnson and his whole right wing elitist crew get their Brexit and then take responsibility for the shambles, chaos and economic ruin which will follow.  I don't want them to have the opportunity to blame the 'post Brexit' mess on Labour. 

Tories made this mess.  Up to them to 'own' it.

 

 

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I saw the rubbish but no corpses. Newspaper reports were extreme, mainly because the situation was extreme and regardless of political orientation non, with the exception of the Kremlin backed Morning Star supported the strikers,  most were also extremely critical of the government.

 

The three day week was essential to maintain electricity supplies. The bulk of generation was coal fired, add a miner strike and you get the picture.

 

I do not forget that poor management was a huge contribution to the industries woes. The were not allowed to mansge though in my experience.

 

An example:

 

The BMC works at Cowley had a huge bar in the canteen and workers won the right to take quart bottles of beer back to work on the production line after their lunch break. They also used the foam from car seats to create little 'dens' on the line where they took it in turns to sleep. Line mangers, called foremen in those days, colluded with the practice. Senior managers apparently knew but dared not face a dispute so turned a blind eye.. I'm not making this up. Management is not something that can be seen in isolation, it only works if there's cooperation and back then there was precious little of that.

 

You can't divorce the working population, or any population from what happens in the economy and say it's not of their making, of course it is. If they aren't to suffer the consequences of governments actions, after all they voted for them and their policies, who is?

It's us who choose to buy Chinese crap rather than indigenous products. Who buys all the Japanese cars? Has anybody checked lately where their underwear is made? It is we the people that are screwing the planet up by shipping commodities across the world rather than buy local - that's why the poor innocent people have to suffer.

 

Why austerity? To bring down debt. It really is that simple. Yes such measures cause a fall in employment but the opposite, continued borrowing, is to run the risk of hyper inflation and their are several examples where that has proven true. I said before I don't believe you can spend you way put of debt. Investing in infrastructure and hoping for an increase in tax revenue etc is a prime example of 'trickle down' economics - risky at best.

 

The BBC 'vox pop' is your perception Col, I don't see it that way at all.

 

Agree with the bit about Cummings but though I'm no fan of Johnson he has rather had his hands tied. He said he' get it done, now it seem everyone doesn't want it done. Someone once said the EU would beg us for a deal. Maybe they won't beg but it seems they must be very anxious to get one or they would not have allowed so much buggering about and simply said 'Fine, you want to leave...you're out'. We forget there are two sides to Brexit.

 

As far as I'm concerned, I want neither a general election nor a Labour Govt. at present

Heh, you and the comrade both but at least Johnson was prepared to pick up the poisoned chalice. We and everyone  else knows it's  a disaster in the making and Labour are gleefully rubbing their hands just dying to say, yah boo. What are they contributing? what help are they offering...…………………. zero as usual

 

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I'm in Budapest writing this having driven here through and stayed over in four different countries to get here, At each stop I've tried to engage and get their perspective on Brexit. Only the three French guys in a back street bar in Calais had an opinion. 'Why do we allow our government to behave so?'

Germany just elicited a sigh and a shrug of the shoulders whilst Austria and Hungary show a complete lack of interest and seem totally indifferent to it all.

Scanning the news stands at fuel stops not one paper had the word Brexit that I could see. Seems we're not the center of the universe no more..:sorry:

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Yes Col, I too am annoyed that the BBC eke out the types you mention. Of course the Beeb assumes that anyone living north of Watford sits on the pavement all day with straw hanging from their ears, and eating Yorkshire Puddings.

It's as though they're trying to portray Northerners as uneducated, bumbling oiks !

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That is another aspect of the media's trouble causing.  Set one area of the country against another.  Then while we are busy slanging and fighting each other the underhanded stuff goes unreported or just played down.  They regard us all as a bunch of yokels.  When I lived there I lost count of the number of times I heard, "It must be true, it was on telly."

 

This country is as divided as I've ever seen it today and much of the problem is media lies and bias.

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20 hours ago, Brew said:

The BMC works at Cowley had a huge bar in the canteen and workers won the right to take quart bottles of beer back to work on the production line after their lunch break. They also used the foam from car seats to create little 'dens' on the line where they took it in turns to sleep. Line mangers, called foremen in those days, colluded with the practice. Senior managers apparently knew but dared not face a dispute so turned a blind eye.. I'm not making this up. Management is not something that can be seen in isolation, it only works if there's cooperation and back then there was precious little of that.

Have a look at this if you want a good laugh about union co-operation

Working Class Man starring Michael Keaton

It was released as Gung Ho in the USA and tells the story of a Japanese auto company taking over a defunct US auto plant

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20 hours ago, Brew said:

I saw the rubbish but no corpses. Newspaper reports were extreme, mainly because the situation was extreme and regardless of political orientation non, with the exception of the Kremlin backed Morning Star supported the strikers,  most were also extremely critical of the government.

 

Disagree, Newspaper reports were extreme for the same reason they are now.  Sensationalism feeds into a sense of outrage and sells papers.  That's all.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

The three day week was essential to maintain electricity supplies. The bulk of generation was coal fired, add a miner strike and you get the picture.

 

  Heath could claim it was essential, but all depends on two things. The length of the strike and the size of reserves.  It is simply not proven that the three day week was any more than a 'political' device to set the country against the miners.  It backfired on two levels because Heath lost the election he called to try to 'confirm' support for his policies, and an independent pay body found in favour of the miner's case.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

I do not forget that poor management was a huge contribution to the industries woes. The were not allowed to mansge though in my experience.

 

There were isolated, but highly publicised instances of unions behaving irresponsibly.  I've already agreed that. But the vast majority of the workforce was unionised back then and the true level of extremism was massively overplayed by both the Media and the likes of the Tories.   I frankly got sick of the phrase 'management must be allowed to manage', because I saw numerous examples of management incompetence which had me muttering  'management must learn how to manage'.

 

I recall getting mightily 'P!$$£d off with one manager after an exhausting yet barely productive 12 hour night shift spent battling with failing equipment and poor quality materials. This was in a lead refinery where everything was either hot, heavy, corrosive, toxic, explosive or all five.  He had the brass neck to turn up and accuse us of being inefficient.  I lost it and told him if he could do any better with the pile of 'BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP' kit and materials we were supposed to use, as well as having no maintenace or engineering back up all night other than our own 'nous' and ingenuity, then he was welcome to try and I'd swap my next night shift for his white overall clad day shift.

I also pointed out to him the true definition of efficiency, being maximum output for minimum effort.  Not the reverse. 

He blinked and stepped back.  I think he realised his 'misjudgement' and said no more.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

You can't divorce the working population, or any population from what happens in the economy and say it's not of their making, of course it is. If they aren't to suffer the consequences of governments actions, after all they voted for them and their policies, who is?

It's us who choose to buy Chinese crap rather than indigenous products. Who buys all the Japanese cars? Has anybody checked lately where their underwear is made? It is we the people that are screwing the planet up by shipping commodities across the world rather than buy local - that's why the poor innocent people have to suffer.

 

That's a rather convoluted 'cop out'  Brew.  You know full well that neither you or I had any influence on the causes of the 2008 crash.  Yet it was the poorest in society who suffered, and continue to suffer, the results of Osborne's very ideologically driven 'cure'.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Why austerity? To bring down debt. It really is that simple. Yes such measures cause a fall in employment but the opposite, continued borrowing, is to run the risk of hyper inflation and their are several examples where that has proven true. I said before I don't believe you can spend you way put of debt. Investing in infrastructure and hoping for an increase in tax revenue etc is a prime example of 'trickle down' economics - risky at best.

 

And it is debateable at best whether Austerity had any positive effects on our economy, much less any which were 'worth it'.  If you think back to those early days of austerity, the first thrust of the Tory argument was 'It was Labour wot Dunnit'.. which any sane person knows it wasn't.  Their second lie was to outlandishly exaggerate the number, and cost, of so-called 'Benefit Scroungers', to set the population up to accept what they (the Tories) wanted to do..  Basically what they always do...attack public services and benefits, drone on endlessly about 'rolling back' the state etc.  And why?  Because they are personally offended by anyone having the temerity to expect them to contribute their taxes to the welfare of others.  They can't help it.  Money is for them.. not for the 'little people'.  The World Economic Crisis of 2008 was an absolute electoral and policy 'gift' to them, and by God they've used it.  

A bit of googling will easily show that there is considerable debate amongst economists about how much Osborne's clearly (gleefully?) ideologically driven Austerity actually contributed to recovery.. or whether, by 'collapsing' the economy further and reducing both GDP and the Tax 'take', it just delayed recovery. 

 

Also consider that 'Labour Tax and Spend' is a myth.  Just folklore whipped up by a Tory supporting press and fed to the masses, just like Brexit. In fact Labour Govts have consistently reduced debt c.f. Tories since day one.

 

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2015/02/george-osborne-debt-monger.html

 

From which: 

 

Quote

George Osborne has created more debt than every Labour government in history

A quick look at the economic evidence reveals that only two Labour governments have ever left office leaving the national debt higher as a percentage of GDP than it was when they came to power, and all of the others have lowered it as a percentage of GDP.
On the two occasions that Labour oversaw increases in the national debt as a percentage of GDP there were the mitigating circumstances of huge global financial crises. The Ramsay MacDonald government of 1929-31 coincided with global fallout from the Wall Street Crash (they left a 12% increase in the debt to GDP ratio), and the last few years of the Blair-Brown government of 1997-2010 coincided with the 2008 financial sector insolvency crisis (they left an 11% increase). The other Labour governments all reduced the scale of the national debt, Clement Attlee's government of 1945-51 reduced the national debt by 40% of GDP despite having to rebuild the UK economy from the ruins of the Second World War; Harold Wilson's 1964-70 government reduced the national debt by 27% of GDP; and even the Wilson-Callaghan government of 1974-79 managed to reduce the debt by 4% of GDP.
The majority of Labour governments have ended up reducing the national debt, and the two that didn't happened to coincide with the biggest global financial crisis of the 20th Century and the biggest global financial crisis so far in the 21st Century.
When we come to look at George Osborne's own record as Chancellor of the Exchequer it is an established fact that in his first 3 years as Chancellor, Osborne managed to add more to the national debt than the Labour Party did in the 13 preceding years.

 

What price 'Tory Fiscal Competence' now?

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

The BBC 'vox pop' is your perception Col, I don't see it that way at all.

 

I think if you watched the BBC lunchtime news regularly, you'd find it hard to avoid the same conclusion.  Fly and I don't exactly see eye to eye on all politics, but he too sees the BBC issue.  Being charitable, it's incompetence.. at worse.. it is bias.

 

20 hours ago, Brew said:

Agree with the bit about Cummings but though I'm no fan of Johnson he has rather had his hands tied. He said he' get it done, now it seem everyone doesn't want it done. Someone once said the EU would beg us for a deal. Maybe they won't beg but it seems they must be very anxious to get one or they would not have allowed so much buggering about and simply said 'Fine, you want to leave...you're out'. We forget there are two sides to Brexit.

As far as I'm concerned, I want neither a general election nor a Labour Govt. at present

Heh, you and the comrade both but at least Johnson was prepared to pick up the poisoned chalice. We and everyone  else knows it's  a disaster in the making and Labour are gleefully rubbing their hands just dying to say, yah boo. What are they contributing? what help are they offering...…………………. zero as usual

 

Well although we're going to have to agree to differ on a few things.. at least we agree on what a despicable and dangerous character Cummings is.   I don't see anything commendable in Johnson's willingness to pick up the 'Poisoned Chalice'.. it is after all what he's wanted all his life. He's just an opportunist and this is his opportunity. I don't think he reallly cares one way or the other about Brexit.. any more than he does about anything else, but he's willing to crash out ( and on all the evidence aiming for just that) just to 'get it done' and gather brownie points from both the cynical big money, and the 'Aht..Naaahhh' rabble.

 

There was a rather interesting article in the Grauniad, pointing out that the Brexiters strategy of setting the people against Parliament.. will come back to bite them when Brexit happens and they become the Parliament that they have set the baying mob against:  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/27/tories-dominic-cummings-people-v-parliament-election

 

And also this.. which points a long way towards the real reasons why Johnson is desperate to get us out of the EU without a deal.  (Clue ..it's got bugger all to do with 'immigration', or 'taking back control.)

https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/brexit-are-hedge-funds-piling-in-short-bets-for-no-deal-31st-october/?fbclid=IwAR155PxyMOZry5MqpSmMFMO9g9sCZJznY7SApwVgQNzDCgkLyBwGLKJ5esg

 

Not really necessary to keep using 'the comrade' pejoratively against JC.  You've pulled me up for less..;)

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Fink it's abart time Parlimunt stopped blockin' Brexit.. so we can get ahht an' stop ver EU from bossin' us abaahht'..innit'.

 

Ooh. Aren’t I superior? They shouldn’t be allowed a vote eh DJ? 

 

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I didn't say either of those things. You did.   What's more you've completely missed the point I was making, which was the way that the BBC seem to go out of their way to find barely articulate people, and mostly of a 'pro Brexit' persuasion.  I'm fairly sure that there are people out there capable of articulating both views, though, possibly in common with the BBC, I'm still waiting for a single person of any level of articulation who can construct a convincing argument in favour of Brexit.

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