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I don't think it's simply a question of numbers Col. 

Counting the oceans that's 70% of the globe uninhabitable and assuming deserts take up 30 to 35% of the bits you can stand on, only 70 percent (ish) of what's left is  habitable i.e. you could survive there, whether you would want to is another matter.

Humans use half of that area for agricultural. For the remainder, 37 percent is forested; 11 percent classed as scrub or shrubbery; and that leaves just one percent for yours truly and co.

 

Those figures for density in the link appear to take no account of the land needed to support the people. Apply the above figures and you rapidly realise a lot of people are squeezed into a very small space.

 

Saying every 278  people in the UK only use 1000 square meters so we have plenty of room for more is a nonsense, doesn't mean or prove anything.

 

You can't just look at the land area, divide it by the population and say we each have x square metres. For a start the worlds supply of fresh water is in all the wrong places.

The world would be plenty big enough if people were spread evenly across it's surface and still had space to provide for their needs but the sad truth is too many bodies want the same bit of land and its resources.

 

All this Hocus Pocus I've heard about getting the worlds population on the Isle of Wight is banal nonsense. 

 

Many scientists think Earth has a maximum carrying capacity of 9 to 10 billion people. Harvard University sociobiologist Edward O. Wilson, bases his estimate on calculations of the Earth's available resources. At the present rate of progress we will reach 10 Billion by 2050 and 11 Billion by 2100 and that takes no account of China relaxing the one child per couple rule.

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True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

I agree with Brew, using population density is ultra simplistic. Australia has an average population density of 3 people per sq. km. if we were all spread across the continent evenly. Unfortunately the bulk of the continent is of little use for any form of agriculture and as humans we are gathered around the coastal areas. Inner city Melbourne has the highest density of 19,500 per sq. km. Darwin in the Northern Territory has a population density of 703 per sq. km and the Northern Territory has a density of 0.16. Northumberland has a density of 64

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I read your article and noted the official government estimates on immigration population you will note the word estimate these are notoriously figures plucked out of the ether hs2 being the latest The fact is no one has the slightest clue on the present figures how could they when lorry loads are coming in every hour of the day These are people who have paid large amounts of money to avoid our border checks I have nothing against controlled immigration We have a minister for border security now what on earth is he being paid for we have a navy that would be hard pressed to patrol the serpentine One boat for the whole east coast The last case of slave trafficking they gave them bail and they legged it to canada despite having their passports taken off them it shows our borders are a laughing stock look at areas of our city meadows st anns forest fields all totally ruined by crime from illegal cigs to people slavery the police floundering hopelessly trying to cope with a mikado justice system I fear our grandchildren will never forgive us for giving their homeland away meeowed

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49 minutes ago, meeowed said:

I read your article and noted the official government estimates on immigration population you will note the word estimate these are notoriously figures plucked out of the ether hs2 being the latest

 

I agree they are estimates and I also agree that these figures can be misleading. However they agree the overall trend for legal   immigrantion is down.  Lets not confuse the two, legal and illegal.

The majority of legal immigrants have jobs, accommodation, pay taxes and are no burden on the benefits system.

 

Illegals are a different kettle of fish and as you say the numbers are a guesstimate but the methods they use to get here small boats, car boots or containers (one even walked through the tunnel), hardly amount to 'Mass Immigration'. 

 

I have been in and out the country quite a few times recently and Border Control does not impress me although they do seem to be doing quite a bit better than we give them credit for.

In 2017 there were 30,000 recorded attempts to enter the UK illegally from northern France (Parliamentary Answer, 2018). 

The Policy Exchange's Border Audit of 2018 suggests that the average number of detected illegal lorry drops in recent years has been around 15,000 per year. 

 

The Navy may only use one ship to cover the of the south coast but radar, radio, aircraft and the public means almost none of those who survive crossing in small boats escape detection.

 

1 hour ago, meeowed said:

look at areas of our city meadows st anns forest fields all totally ruined by crime from illegal cigs to people slavery the police floundering hopelessly trying to cope with a mikado justice system

 

Can't argue that there is a higher crime rate in those areas Meeowed but we can't blame it all on immigrants.

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I have no objection to legal immigration if we do not have the skilled workers available positions have to be filled by others who qualify. Like a lot of others I do object to economic migration where the only goal seems to be the collection of benefits and housing with no inclination whatever to work. Also what will happen to those who come here illegally, they have no papers (intentionally) there are not the number of detention centers to hold them .......

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Illegal immigrants are not entitled to nor do they receive benefits of any kind, how can they claim if they're illegal?  Asylum seekers (refugees) are barred from working whilst a decision is made about their status and do receive benefits.

There are those who are a little more savvy that can and do cheat the system but those jolly chaps at Westminster  Jollly Johnson and Crafty Corbyn are going to throw lots of money at the police and border force to solve the problems, I'm sure they won't waste it by giving themselves big pay rises or squander it on expenses.

 

More information from the House of Commons Library here:-

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/migration-statistics-how-many-asylum-seekers-and-refugees-are-there-in-the-uk/

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Talking of immigration... Decades ago I was on an army exercise on Salisbury plains where the pretend scenario was that China was invading Australia & we'd gone to help them, we even had Oz officers in charge of us. (of course we won in the end, we always did on exercise's) In the pretend scenario the Chinese govt had threatened if they won that any Australian who couldn't prove their Oz ancestry back several generations were to be deported back to their own country. We discussed this & agreed that the UK would probably sink if this happened with the sudden influx of millions of people. Could it happen? Hope not... 

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1 hour ago, colly0410 said:

 We discussed this & agreed that the UK would probably sink if this happened with the sudden influx of millions of people. Could it happen? Hope not... 

 

Extemely unlikely as I'm sure the rest of the World could and would make the same threat about Chinese Nationals in thier Countries.

I'm sure even China might sink then.

 

 

9 hours ago, Brew said:

Illegal immigrants are not entitled to nor do they receive benefits of any kind, how can they claim if they're illegal? 

 

Apart from the ones who have aquired false identities and are claiming or are having claims made on thier behalf in exchange for their transport costs to the U.K

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32 minutes ago, Stuart.C said:

Apart from the ones who have aquired false identities and are claiming or are having claims made on thier behalf in exchange for their transport costs to the U.K

 

I did acknowledge that some manage to cheat the system but in terms of sheer numbers are there more or less than the home grown variety of benefit cheats?

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I just read a report on a well known hotel chain where migrants have been housed The chain owner has amassed a £240 million fortune for housing migrants both legal and otherwise one of his manchester hotels cost the taxpayer £1.2 million over an 18 month period migrants were ferried from dover to his hotel chains throughout the country including Nottingham where they were given three meals a day and £35 a week for spending The chain owner claimed £3 million for his personal expenses this year Largely undocumented migrants are being transported into the community this is happening through out the country at hotels in manchester nottingham leeds stockport wigan  then we have ex armed forces sleeping on the pavement meeowed

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I have no problem with a hotelier making money - that's what they are in business for. The amount you quote has little relevance without more information. How many immigrants, what were/are the alternatives etc. The councils like everyone has a choice, no one forced them.

 

I'm more concerned you say there are ex service men sleeping rough. I'd want to ask why, do they have mental health issues for instance. I've long said we don't treat them with the respect or give them the support we should.

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With the lack of investigative journalism these days i feel it is quite easy for the government to keep the scale of the problem from public knowledge This could be the tip of the iceberg most going into the fast food outlets etc it seems quite easy for councils to put them into rented housing at the taxpayers expense As i said previously we have no idea of the present population but to allow human slavery to prosper shows the depth of depravity these people will sink to meeowed

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On 11/16/2019 at 11:29 PM, Gem said:

I have no objection to legal immigration if we do not have the skilled workers available positions have to be filled by others who qualify. Like a lot of others I do object to economic migration where the only goal seems to be the collection of benefits and housing with no inclination whatever to work. Also what will happen to those who come here illegally, they have no papers (intentionally) there are not the number of detention centers to hold them .......

 

The whole issue of what people like to casually call 'immigration'.. has become very blurred.  Deliberately so by some.

 

EU first.  Anybody in any EU country is entitled to travel to and work in any other EU country.  This is a 'two way' process and many Brits work in the EU.

 

Asylum Seekers next.  These are people who come here (and to many other countries) in order to seek safety from dangerous conditions/regimes. in their own countries.  Those who declare themselves as Asylum Seekers are NOT 'illegal immigrants', because their immigration status is not decided until their asylum status is decided.  While their Asylum status remains undecided, they are NOT ALLOWED TO WORK.  Therefore, to avoid them starving to death.. they are entitled to some benefits until their case is decided.  If they fail to achieve Asylum.. they are deported.

 

Legal Immigrants.  These are.. as the name implies.. here legally and from outside the EU.  As I've stated many times before.. the numbers of non EU immigrants have increased since Brexit came on the horizon.. which is a massive own goal for those who use racism as a reason to support Brexit.. since most 'non EU' migrants are from obviously  non-white ethnic backgrounds.

 

Illegal Immigrants.  These are.. as the name implies.. not entitled to be here.  When they are caught.. they are usually deported.  And so they should be.

 

The whole issue of 'migration'.. (Note 'Migration'.. Not 'Immigration') from the EU has been massively distorted by the likes of Farage et.al to whip up hatred against people who are entitled to work here whilst we are part of the EU , and deliberately conflated with wider immigration from other places.. to fuel fear and hatred.

 

Two other points.

1. All evidence points to the fact that EU migrants pay more in tax etc. than they 'take' from the system.

2. Whole sectors of UK Industry are suffering from a shortage of workers, as EU workers become less likely to come here due to Brexit and hatred peddled by Brexit supporters.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, meeowed said:

With the lack of investigative journalism these days i feel it is quite easy for the government to keep the scale of the problem from public knowledge This could be the tip of the iceberg most going into the fast food outlets etc it seems quite easy for councils to put them into rented housing at the taxpayers expense As i said previously we have no idea of the present population but to allow human slavery to prosper shows the depth of depravity these people will sink to meeowed

 

Why would a right wing, anti EU Govt wish to conceal the true extent of 'The Problem'?

 

The 'problem'. is of course what you want it to be. 

 

Why would any sort of response from Councils. who have been cash strapped by the same Govt for at least a decade.. be 'easy'?

 

May I politely suggest you try to start from facts rather than supposition? 

 

It would also be helpful if you could try to find the 'Full Stop' key on your keyboard..as as it would make your posts more readable.

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Gentlemen, I don't disagree with much of what either of you say.. but you don't negate the point I'm making. 

 

My point is twofold.  First is that large sections of the population are effectively told by the press what they should be getting exercised about.. when there are equally large, or larger problems which, if addressed would do more good. Second, is that Govt.s deliberately foster such rubbish in the press in order to divert attention away from their own failings and misdemeanours.

 

Brew. I agree that many confuse Tax Avoidance (legal) and Tax evasion.(Criminal)  To solve that requires a Govt with the 'balls' (and the will) to properely confront big corporations who do manage to find means to pay little or no tax on their operations here. Of course the 'gig' ecoonomy is part of the issue, but I'd argue that many 'respectable' trades people etc, working for themselves.. will also be using the simple device of getting cash payments to avoid income 'showing up'.  I have a friend who makes a fortune who was long ago told by his accountant that he needed to 'put more cash through the books'..to avoid the attention of the Tax Inspectors.  Yet.. I'm sure that a significant number of those moaning about benefit and health fraud 'dahn the pub'..will also not be averse to 'pocketing' cash from the odd 'foreigner'.

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12 minutes ago, meeowed said:

A previous post claimed illegals could not claim benefit that is clearly not correct as its the taxpayer who picks up the hotel bills and their spending allowances  I have seen for myself where migrants have been placed in alms houses 

 

Which post are you referring to?  Why not quote it?

 

Illegals CANNOT claim benefits, because they are effectively 'invisible'. apart from those who we have already acknowledged manage to create a false ID.  Asylum Seekers can.. while their case is decided, because they aren't allowed to work.  Asylum Seekers are NOT illegal because they have revealed themselves to the authorities in order to claim Asylum.  This is not complicated. 

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1 hour ago, meeowed said:

A previous post claimed illegals could not claim benefit that is clearly not correct as its the taxpayer who picks up the hotel bills and their spending allowances 

 

They don't 'claim' as in trotting down to wherever they go and filling in forms, they can't. Those in hotels are a bit like people in prison. Prisoners don't 'claim' benefits, but they are a burden on the taxpayer.

 

Almshouses were established sometime in the middle ages in Britain, usually by the church to provide a place for poor and old  people.. Nothing to do with soldiers though I don't doubt some lived in them.

 

I think the little German chap was actually Austrian but who's counting ... 

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The point is no one has the slightest clue of the figures entering our country illegal or otherwise  oh and by the way the hotel report was published in three of our national newspapers   Perhaps you could publish the deportation figures it should not take more than one hand  Socialism seems fine until their leaders gain a considerable fortune then they seem rather reluctant to share with their comrades then  Teflon tony could not afford a london flat when sam foxs boyfriend conned him  And yet a session in number ten has resulted in a series of multi million pound properties and finances that no one can fathom the job must pay pretty well  Then we have mandelson still hand in glove with his russian billionaire  The hypocrisy of the like of Prescot and numerous union leaders shuffling off to the house of lords  I have nothing but contempt for all politicians they are ruled by sheer greed  I have sat in the speakers chair on a visit there and you are not left with a sense of history but just one of overwhelming corruption  We have never been in such dire straits for polictical representation  meeowed

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Really not difficult to find.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-april-to-june-2017/how-many-people-are-detained-or-returned

 

I don't think it would profit either of us to get into a debate about whether Blair/ Mandleson, or Johnson/Farage are more firmly in bed with Russians ....  but it's Johnson who is sitting on a report into current/recent Russian involvement in funding Tory/Brexit activities to influence the outcome of the coming election and Brexit.

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This is why I never discuss religion with my asian neighbour who i hasten to add i get on with very well  He can no more understand why i dont believe in islam any more than I can understand why he does  it would be a pointless excercise  so we agree to disagree  I just fear for our childrens future in this world but they must make the best of it as we had to meeowed

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Does it matter? You're both here, you both have lives to live and you will both die. Perhaps the important issue is what you do with those lives and why.  We are not what we profess to believe and are not necessarily what we do but, perhaps, we are a reflection of the intentions behind our actions. In many cases, it's a reflection with which we will find it disturbing to be confronted? Do you like what you see in the mirror?

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Very insightful post, Jill.   

There are times I don't wholly approve of my 'reflection'  but the important thing is to recognise and own these times and perhaps take steps to change our attitudes and opinions if they make us feel uncomfortable and aren't what we feel they perhaps could be.   I believe It's important not to just blindly accept our present opinions saying:  "That's just who I am.  I've always  thought that way (same as my mum/dad before me)..... and  I'm too old and set in my ways to change now".    

 

One of the good things about this particular forum is that it brings us into contact with people we wouldn't normally come across in our everyday lives - people with very different views from our own.  I love reading about everyone's childhood memories and present day experiences, and it has made me much more aware of possible reasons why we all think so differently on many subjects - and not just our party political stance.

 

None of us is too old to really listen to - and consider  with an open mind - other people's opinions.  

 

On a lighter note, the main thing I see I see in my mirror is an old lady (don't know where she came from) who needs a new birthday suit for Christmas :Shock:

 

 

 

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What I (sometimes) find interesting about this thread is reading opinions which I don’t share - or hadn’t even thought of - and wondering if I could be converted.

 

Asa a result of what I’ve read here,  I’ve not - so far - been persuaded to change my opinion on any subject.

 

I’ve sometimes lost the will to live before I reached the end of a post; or couldn’t keep a straight face any longer; or just thought “there’s no way I sympathise with this”.

 

I’ll stick with what I know and think.

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At least you've read the posts CT !   Of course, sometimes it's right for a person to leave  by the same door they entered....

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