Anything Political

[philmayfield 6,107]

Lesser of two evils unfortunately!

[PeverilPeril 3,278]

We desperately need a strong opposition, whoever is in power.

[philmayfield 6,107]

Unfortunately politics doesn’t attract the best brains. There are higher rewards to be had in finance and industry.

[LizzieM 9,504]

1 hour ago, PeverilPeril said:

We desperately need a strong opposition, whoever is in power.

Particularly important in Nottingham City, where the dreadful Labour controlled council consists of 50 Labour councillors, 3 Independent councillors and 2 Conservative councillors.  When will the electorate learn that nothing will change nor improve whilst Labour has the power to spend on schemes losing millions every year.  

[philmayfield 6,107]

Generally Labour councillors don't have the hands on experience of running a business. If they did they wouldn't be supporting Labour in the first place!

[Cliff Ton 10,450]

One of the other problems is that many voters don't seem to recognise the connection between who they vote for and what happens.

 

They will moan about the Labour or Conservative local council; ask them who they voted for, and it will be the party they complain about.

[philmayfield 6,107]

We always dislike the party in power notwithstanding their political colour. We’ve always got to have something to moan about, that’s what being British is all about! 

[Brew 5,404]

A nice move to avoid the elephant in the room, the gist of the post was Blair and his hypocritical actions.

Let’s start with Sunak's speech, is it any different in essence to brother Starmer’s latest pie in the sky promises? 

 

Starme'sr highlights at conference:

 

Wants a serious plan for government... what does that actually mean?

 

Mental health spending will not fall … doesn’t say it will increase either

 

Emphasis on digital skills… blithely ignoring the Tories spending over half a billion pounds more on IT training.

 

Wants compulsory work experience? In other words another quango we have to pay for.

 

He wants 3% of GDP on R&D … really? That’s £90, 000,000,000! I wonder where that’s coming from….  and where it will go?

 

He wanted an American style Electoral College system for the leadership (the decision made by Labour Mandarins only and the hoi polloi can whistle)... they gave him short shrift on that idea.

 

 Delegates heckle him over his plans… he replied chanting inane slogans.

 

At one point he lowers himself to yah boo style name calling… seriously?

 

Like the first line the rest is just smoke and mirrors but he is happy that men can have a cervix.

 

 

Sunak’s budget?

 

Doubled investment in apprenticeships. This is paid direct to employers not some empire building civil servants.

 

Millions on work placements for 16-24 yr olds on top of the present expenditure.

 

There is much, much more in his spring budget but going through it would take too much time and I would lose the will to live, so see here:

 

https://feweek.co.uk/budget-2021-what-the-chancellor-announced-for-fe-and-skills/

 

‘They invested more in making Dido Harding even richer, than they have in training our workforce’.

 

Sorry Col but that’s clearly nonsense.

 

‘In a little more detail, that clown.. who has completely transformed the traditional Tory view of borrowing by pushing the National Debt up to 100% of GDP, (I believe it was 80%+ BEFORE the pandemic) is now saying that further borrowing would be not only 'unwise', and 'un - Conservative'.. but 'immoral'. 

 

They have consistently accused Labour of being a 'Tax and Spend' party, despite the clear evidence to the contrary.

 

They are now telling us that WE have to pay back all the cash that THEY chose to borrow to make their friends rich’.

 

You’re criticising government borrowing and claim the boom and bust reputation for Labour is a figment.

Back in Corbyn’s day you supported the concept of borrowing and thought that the circular route of money would eventually recoup the countless billions he wanted to spend – thank the powers that be the plebs who had to pay for his madness saw though it.

The only clear evidence I see from the Corbyn era actually reinforced Labours reputation for spending.

 

The huge amount of money spent on furlough was not making anyone rich, nor did it benefit millionaires. It went to Joe Soap, ordinary folk who had no control over events, so who would you say should pay for it?

I’m surprised anyone can say they support universal care then object to actually paying for it. Of course we, the rich and poor, will pay for it.

[Jill Sparrow 10,302]

What's that old saying?

 

When a man tries to ruin a country and fails, he's called a traitor.

 

When a man tries to ruin a country and succeeds, he's called a politician!

 

However you see it, there are people risking their lives to get to England. One, according to the BBC news today, believes the people in this country are kind, helpful and friendly. There is plenty of work and no racism.

 

Which book of fairy stories has he been reading, I wonder?

[DJ360 6,720]

6 hours ago, catfan said:

I'll put my money on  a Tory govt anytime.

 

Unfortunate choice of words there Mike. The Tories will gladly allow you to put your money on them.  Just don't expect anything in return.

[catfan 14,793]

I should have finished my sentence with 

"Rather than a Labour govt".

[loppylugs 8,427]

It's my observation after living in three countries that each election cycle the opposition moans how 'orrible the current govt is.  They make all kinds of promises to be paid for with your money.  Once in they lament that they can't do anything because the last lot left such a fiscal mess.  Eventually they get voted out and the last lot gets back in to foul it up some more.  Depressing to put it mildly.

[Oztalgian 3,264]

8 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

What's that old saying?

"It does not matter who you vote for you still get a politician"

 

Talking about voting, here in South Australia we will be voting for a Federal election sometime in Q1 or Q2. They have a three year term and then within weeks a State election. They have four year terms. We always vote on a Saturday in OZ.

We have Liberal/NP (Conservative) parties in power at both state and federal levels at the moment. If there is any justice this totally incompetent,mired in dodgy deals and lying federal government will be booted out. The state government may survive based only on its handling of the covid crisis may survive, even though it is spending multi millions on a new sporting stadium when hospitals are struggling for capacity without any real covid impact.

The only real thing to look forward too is that we get two chances of a "Democracy Sausage". A barbequed sausage with onions and your choice of sauce in a slice of bread sold by charities and community groups at polling booths.

[DJ360 6,720]

12 hours ago, Brew said:

A nice move to avoid the elephant in the room, the gist of the post was Blair and his hypocritical actions.

 

Jim, I said I'd come back to this.  Bottom line here, which I'm sure you'd quote if it was anyone but a Labour politician, is that the Blairs broke no laws.  What they did may be seen as distasteful, but it was entirely legal. The Blairs are wealthy. Simple as that.  Blair was P.M. for 10 years and did a lot of good, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland.  Yes, he lost his way in the end.. they all do eventually.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Let’s start with Sunak's speech, is it any different in essence to brother Starmer’s latest pie in the sky promises? 

 

Starme'sr highlights at conference:

 

Wants a serious plan for government... what does that actually mean?

 

Mental health spending will not fall … doesn’t say it will increase either

 

Emphasis on digital skills… blithely ignoring the Tories spending over half a billion pounds more on IT training.

 

Wants compulsory work experience? In other words another quango we have to pay for.

 

He wants 3% of GDP on R&D … really? That’s £90, 000,000,000! I wonder where that’s coming from….  and where it will go?

Etc.

I didn't watch all of Starmer's speech, and I'm not here to defend him.  Labour haven't been in power for 11 years, so no criticism, real or imagined, that you can level at them.. has any real relevance for what's happening now on the Tories' watch. As I repeatedly say, I'm a Democratic Socialist.  That does not mean I'm automatically happy with Labour either.. but it's all rather academic at the moment.

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

‘They invested more in making Dido Harding even richer, than they have in training our workforce’.

 

Sorry Col but that’s clearly nonsense.

 

 

 

It isn't.  Have you seen the figures for spending on test and trace?  They dwarf spending on training by a factor of many.

 

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/07/12/uk-outsourcing-covid-response-has-cost-more-than-the-gdp-of-140-countries/

 

I spent 30 years of my working life involved with education and training.  I've seen Govt's of all stripes consistently fail to implement a proper occupational training system in the country.  The last we had was under the old system of Industry Training Boards which Thatcher scrapped, in typical Tory fashion without putting anything in its place and expecting that 'the market' would sort it.  Let's get that one out of the way once and for all.. if the 'market' worked to solve all of our country's problems, we'd have no need of Government.  Few would argue that the old ITBs needed reform, but the wholesale abolition was pure Thatcherite malice, dressed as ideology.

 

The biggest single failing of ALL governments, since Thatcher, is the reluctance to REQUIRE businesses and employers to train people, both properly, and in sufficient numbers.

 

The budget figures for training which you link to above amount to a few tens, or hundreds of millions.  That is peanuts.. so doubling it just amounts to twice as many peanuts.

12 hours ago, Brew said:

You’re criticising government borrowing and claim the boom and bust reputation for Labour is a figment.

 

I'm not criticising Govt. borrowing. I'm criticising the way that borrowing is spent, and repaid.

 

As I recall, after 10 years of cruel and arguably unnecessary 'austerity', Sunak's first budget, just as Covid was beginning to impact, was an orgy of spending and borrowing.. and much of it planned well before the Covid measures, which were a late addition to his budget.  It was a huge break from what had gone before and clearly designed to try to appeal to the 'Red Wall' voters who handed the Tories victory in the Brexit Debacle, after promises of 'levelling up' etc.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunaks-first-budget-is-economic-shock-and-awe-11955508

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

Back in Corbyn’s day you supported the concept of borrowing and thought that the circular route of money would eventually recoup the countless billions he wanted to spend – thank the powers that be the plebs who had to pay for his madness saw though it.

The only clear evidence I see from the Corbyn era actually reinforced Labours reputation for spending.

 

I think I pointed out that Govt. borrowing is not the same as household borrowing, and is much less 'scary', especially when interest rates are low.   (Because it is largely, in effect.. borrowing from ourselves)

 

Although I supported Corbyn's social policies and so on, I came to see him as a liability due to his inability to effectively argue his position, keep his foot out of his mouth, or pronounce on Brexit.

 

Also, on a 'point of order', I don't think Corbyn was intending to spend much, or any, more than Johnson.  Have you forgotten the 'public spending bidding war' before the election.. in which Corbyn and Johnson tried to 'outspend' each other on a daily basis?

 

12 hours ago, Brew said:

The huge amount of money spent on furlough was not making anyone rich, nor did it benefit millionaires. It went to Joe Soap, ordinary folk who had no control over events, so who would you say should pay for it?

I’m surprised anyone can say they support universal care then object to actually paying for it. Of course we, the rich and poor, will pay for it.

 

I haven't complained about furlough.. though there was, and remains criticism of the way in which that system excluded many people.

I'm also not complaining about paying for universal care.. should it ever arrive.  I'm complaining about paying to make Govt. cronies rich.

 

The present situation, regarding shortages of workers, produce, goods, etc.. is all clearly down to the failure of our Brexiteer Govt. to 'Get Brexit Done Properly' and plan for the transition. 

That idiot Johnson sat on TV today and claimed that our 'new economic model', (First time I've heard that joke) cannot rely on 'tired old' stuff,, such as 'mass immigration'. He and his gang are desperately trying to cover up their failings by re-defining Brexit.  'Mass Immigration' is simply a lie. We had many migrant workers from the EU who were entitled to be here, were working, and contributing.  Just as many went from here to work in the EU.  If the intention was to prevent such workers coming here, to drive HGV's, pick crops, or work in the care/hotel, accomodation sectors, then it was the Govts. responsibility to plan for alternatives and train up the required workers IN ADVANCE.  On that.. they have presided over a failure of EPIC proportions, such that an estimated 70% of our economy is now unable to function correctly, due entirely to the failures of Johnson's Govt.

 

Any other immigration , was entirely within the Govt's remit to control.  The fact that they failed to do so, mostly by penny pinching around border controls etc.. is nothing to do with the EU.

 

In summary: 

 

Johnson and Co have failed on Covid, with the exception of the Vaccine Roll out, because despite them spending much more than comparable countries, we still have higher death/infection rates.

 

They have failed on Occupational Training, since they spent years running down Further Education, cutting Nurse training places etc.. and their Apprenticeship programmes have always been a con, because they claim apprenticeship figures on approved and potentially funded places, rather than actual uptake.

 

They have failed to get 'The easiest trade deals in history', and we even witnessed Johnson being told to 'Do one', on live TV by Biden last week.

 

They are in deep trouble, and their spinning won't keep their heads above water for much longer. 

 

 

[Brew 5,404]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Bottom line here, which I'm sure you'd quote if it was anyone but a Labour politician, is that the Blairs broke no laws

 

I don't believe I accused them of breaking any laws, I accused them of hypocrisy and where he is concerned it's nothing new.. When in power he was busy raising public indignation about tax evaders then in 2012 there were questions and serious suspicion regarding his tax affairs, the myriad of partnerships he was involved in, complex businesses structures he set up and how he only paid £312k on earnings of £12+million (a bit less than 3% if my maths are correct).

Both he and Cherie are highly trained lawyers so no, I don't accused them of breaking any laws, they are far too clever and devious to fall into that trap. Yes he did some good and yes I voted for him but he also did a lot to get good men killed,

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

It isn't.  Have you seen the figures for spending on test and trace?

 

It is and yes I've seen the figures but can't see anything about Harding getting more than she's entitled to. Whether the money was well spent is moot as is whether she's worth her corn.

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Also, on a 'point of order', I don't think Corbyn was intending to spend much, or any, more than Johnson. 

 

According to the Guardian for every pound Johnson promised Corbyn planned to spend 28!

 

Quote:

 

"After the launch of the Conservative manifesto on Sunday it emerged that for every one pound Boris Johnson has committed to spending, Jeremy Corbyn would spend £28".

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

despite them spending much more than comparable countries, we still have higher death/infection rates.

 

Not a fair comment, it can't be compared. Our spending was roughly on  par  to  Italy and Germany but according to the IMF the bulk was spent on supporting the people and businesses, not fighting Covid directly

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

They have failed on Occupational Training, since they spent years running down Further Education, cutting Nurse training places etc.. and their Apprenticeship programmes have always been a con, because they claim apprenticeship figures on approved and potentially funded places, rather than actual uptake.

 

Can't blame Boris for that, he's only been PM for a couple of years. It seems he agrees with you though and has signed off on  Sunak's  considerable investment to rectify the situation. 

 

Boris and Brexit we agree is a disaster and will get far worse before it gets better...  if it ever does.

 

[DJ360 6,720]

19 hours ago, Brew said:

Boris and Brexit we agree is a disaster and will get far worse before it gets better...  if it ever does.

 

Well at least we agree on that! 

 

However, I don't for one minute think that Johnson has had some sort of Damascene conversion to a high wage, high skill economy, because he doesn't do principles.  He is pure opportunist. This stuff was never mentioned in the run up to, or the severely bodged implementation of Brexit.  The whole thrust of Brexit was to 'take back control' of numerous things, most of which we had never surrendered control over in the first place.

It is very obvious what is going on here. Johnson and Co failed to forsee, or plan for, the labour shortages which are crippling us at the moment. They were even directly respnsible for creating some of them by failing to ensure, or even cutting levels of training in the years up to, and since, Brexit.  They had 5 years before, and 5 years since the Brexit vote, and only now, are our fearless and 'fiscally competent' leaders waking up to the omnishambles they have created.

Sunak's 'solution', is far too little and far too late.

[catfan 14,793]

In that case he should get the idle workshy to take a job.

Over 1million jobs available & plenty of able people claiming the file.

Brexit has shown how idle the Brits have become.

[Brew 5,404]

CF may have a point. according to the Office for National Statistics the are 1.5 million vacancies and 1.55 million claiming job seekers allowance - but as with everything it's never quite that simple.

Many of the jobs created when foreign workers went home were poorly paid and British workers were either unwilling to do them or better off on benefits. Many jobs, crop picking for instance, are seasonal and to come off benefits for few weeks work doesn't make sense.

Some are 'working the system' but not all claimants are idle or workshy, the poverty trap is real and many are caught in it.

 

Perhaps if they paid decent wages there would be fewer people 'on the dole' but in many instances that would mean an increase in the cost of living for us all.

[roger peatman 337]

Perhaps we should adopt the Spanish system for the able-bodied ?

2 years on the 'dole' - then after that, you're on your own.

[Brew 5,404]

My first thought on that would be that it could lead to an increase in the crime rate. But no so, apparently Spain has comparatively lower crime statistics than the UK.

 

On 10/5/2021 at 1:37 AM, DJ360 said:

here's always an excuse for why the plebs have to keep paying increased taxes and receiving the poorest pensions and benefits in Europe...

 

This statement hung around the back of my mind and irked me because I didn't have an answer - so I checked.

 

It's not true! The comparison is not easy because of the way different countries calculate the amount due and the amount individuals have paid in BUT, in simple terms we are good as most and better than some...

 

 

[DJ360 6,720]

9 hours ago, Brew said:

Some are 'working the system' but not all claimants are idle or workshy, the poverty trap is real and many are caught in it.

 

Precisely, and as is repeated frequently, though hardly ever heard.. many of those claiming universal credit are working.. often in several jobs, trying to make ends meet.

 

If we worried as much about tax evasion, and changed many of the loopholes which allow for legal but extremely distasteful tax avoidance, we would save far more money than we do by chasing the very small percentage of benefit claimants who are fraudsters.

[catfan 14,793]

I personally know of some people who have not worked for more than twenty years & do quite nicely thank you very much.

 

I read this morning that Labour if in power would scrap UC.

To replace it with what ?

Sounds like just another vote catcher aimed at the idle lazy.

Able people should not be in a position to turn down work.

No work, no benefits

 

[philmayfield 6,107]

It seems to run in families. The parents don’t pass on the work ethic to the children. There’s a large sub-culture in this country who live off the system and top it up with the proceeds of crime and growing cannabis in the loft - amongst other things.

[Brew 5,404]

Whether it is called dole, allowances or universal credit governments of all colours have mucked and messed around with the benefits system, in essence all they do is change the name.

[DJ360 6,720]

I've spent a bit of time today trying to get a 'handle' on benefits.

As far as I can see...it is just not possible to 'lounge about on the dole', for years, without something else in the mix.

'Job Seeker's Allowance'..which is a pathetic amount anyway... only lasts for 6 months.  As far as I can see..all other benefits rely on some sort of disability. And yet we constantly hear of disabled people being hounded over their benefits.

So.. who are these people of whom Mike speaks?  Who are these 'Benefit Scroungers' who have not worked for 20 years?  I need more evidence. 

 

I'm sure there are some who are 'working the system'.. but there are many many more who are just trying to get by..and claiming what they are legally entitled to claim..in the face of a job market which offers zero hours contracts and minimum wage.