Anything Political

[philmayfield 6,130]

No racism here - unless we suggested we would like a White Friday! 

[Jill Sparrow 10,305]

I was recently chatting to one of my old school teachers who told me that, many years ago, he went to visit one of his pupils who had a broken leg and was off school. This lad was Jamaican. The teacher took him some books to read and various items to keep him amused.

 

On reaching the address, he knocked at the door which was answered by one of the boy's siblings.

 

There was no sign of a parent.

 

The teacher went into the house and, on seeing him, the lad he was there to visit exclaimed (not in an unfriendly way), "It's de white bastard!"

 

I wonder what may have been the upshot had his teacher, in the classroom, made the same comment (not in an unfriendly way) about him?

[philmayfield 6,130]

It doesn't seem to be accepted in this country that racism works both ways.

[Brew 5,416]

Am I surprised, hmmm.... lemme look.... hmmm......  no not one bit...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-59524255

[philmayfield 6,130]

It would be appropriate for the City councillors to be removed for their incompetence. I don't know if there is a defined procedure for this or if criminal proceedings for negligence can be instigated. 

 

 

[letsavagoo 963]

Looks like it was spent on pies.

[Brew 5,416]

Is it Councillors who make the decision which pot of gold they raid? Do heads need to roll in the finance dept;? How could it go for so long without being reported?

I'm not really sure about the internal workings of councils but  something has to be radically wrong with the way it's run

[Rob.L 1,090]

I doubt very much that the current portfolio holder for housing would have knowingly allowed this to happen. I used to work with her and have known her for over thirty years. I even helped and encouraged her when she became a magistrate twenty years ago.

 

She’s as straightforward and honest as they come.

[Brew 5,416]

I don't think anyone has mentioned dishonesty, there is not as far as I know any criminal wrongdoing nor am I saying it's the person you mention.

Anyone can be as honest as the day is long but it's no guarantee of competence in doing their job.

 

Would it not seem reasonable to think a head of department  had an inkling of what was happening?  do they  not read the figures? How could it not be noted for seven years?

 

The shortfall is in the housing dept; budget,  at the end of the day she's wrong if she knew but equally wrong if she didn't

[philmayfield 6,130]

None of the city counsellors have business experience. Says it all really.

[Rob.L 1,090]

Part of the problem is that those who are appointed to these roles won’t necessarily have any expertise in the field. Applies equally as much to MPs who are made ministers as it does to councillors.

 

They're all reliant on the advice of their officials.

[Brew 5,416]

Which brings philmafield's point into the mix. Politicians from Westminster down appoint friends, relatives and cronies into these appointments regardless of ability but entirely dependent on party politics. In local government the gene pool doesn't give a lot of choice.

To say they rely on advisors and officials is like admitting the full time employees are really running the show. The elected representatives are mere figureheads who do as they're told and rubber stamp the paperwork.

[catfan 14,793]

Labour council.Says it all.

[PeverilPeril 3,281]

13 hours ago, Brew said:

Which brings philmafield's point into the mix. Politicians from Westminster down appoint friends, relatives and cronies into these appointments regardless of ability but entirely dependent on party politics. In local government the gene pool doesn't give a lot of choice.

To say they rely on advisors and officials is like admitting the full time employees are really running the show. The elected representatives are mere figureheads who do as they're told and rubber stamp the paperwork.

Yes Minister. - what a great TV prog and well worth watching again. Still bang up to date over 20 years later.

[DJ360 6,728]

The bottom line here is that neither Local Councils, nor Central Govt. are 'businesses', and nor, IMHO, should they be. That is a very recent idea pushed by the appalling Margaret Thatcher. They do not exist to make profit above all else, they exist to deliver services, within budget.

 

Councils and Govt's have budgets, which obviously need to be managed. It is generally understood that elected members are responsible for formulating policy, and implementing policies on which they were elected.  But 'officers' and civil servants are responsible for delivering the policies of the elected members. It is also true that elected members may not have detailed knowledge of policy areas, and they therefore should rely on the advice of officers/civil servants, who are 'au fait' with the legal issues etc., etc.

It all goes very wrong when extremists, such as Hatton and the Militant in Liverpool, or his equivalent, whose name temporarily escapes me, in St Helens, force officers to enact policy which is essentially illegal.  But it isn't just Labour and we are going to see a lot of chickens coming home to roost when Johnson's record is properly examined, unless of course he and his gang succeed in changing the rules, the legal system and the power of Parliament...which is their avowed mission.

 

As for Nottingham and the Housing Budget fiasco. I can't comment on detail.  All I can say is that as I understand it, the re-allocation of funds from one budget to another is generally known in accounting terms as 'virement'. It can be quite proper.  All I know is that when I worked for St Helens Counil, there was a section within 'Accounts', which for all I know may have been a small team, or a single individual, responsible for 'Virement'.  I would assume that it was their job to look at 'Virement' proposals, and have a view on what was and was not 'doable', within the rules.

[DJ360 6,728]

On 12/4/2021 at 10:06 PM, Brew said:

Which brings philmafield's point into the mix. Politicians from Westminster down appoint friends, relatives and cronies into these appointments regardless of ability but entirely dependent on party politics. In local government the gene pool doesn't give a lot of choice.

To say they rely on advisors and officials is like admitting the full time employees are really running the show. The elected representatives are mere figureheads who do as they're told and rubber stamp the paperwork.

 

That in my experience is a massive oversimplification.  There are many officers, whether they be in local or central govt. employ, who outlive many administrations.

These are people who work for entire lifetimes in their chosen profession.  My neighbour, over the back fence..was the Senior Education Dept. Accountant for St Helens. He was qualified to 'CIPFA' (Chartered Institute of Public Finance Accountants) level., at least... and as far I I know did a competent job, retiring without a stain on his character.  The fact that I have fallen out with him since over completely unrelated issues is neither here not there.

I worked in Career Guidance for 30 years. Around 20 of those years were in Local Govt. employment. There was virtually no interference from elected members, and those who we saw with any frequency, were generally very supportive of our work.  We were basicaly involved in delivering Central Govt. Policy, and just got on with it.

 

The first time I was aware of serious interference by CENTRAL Government, in the workings of the Civil Service, was when that self important serial failure Dominic Cummings set about 'reforming' the Civil Service in his image.. but he is gone...for now..

 

Be thankful for the Civil Service and for Professionally Qualified Local Govt Officers.  They stand between you and some seriously idiotic politicians and their 'SPADs'

[DJ360 6,728]

On 11/26/2021 at 12:28 PM, Bing said:

If you really want to know racism try being a non-asian living in an asian country.  the Chinese call us 'white ghosts', the Japanese, if being polite, call us 'foreign person' and if not being polite call us 'iteki' or 'barbarian'. 

 

In Thailand I cannot own land or work in a large number of professions which are reserved for Thais.  The price for a foreigner to go in a national park is 300 baht (about GBP 6.80p)  for a Thai it's 30 baht.  As a foreigner I could not adopt my wife's daughters when we married and as a foreigner I have to report to the immigration department every 90 days to tell them where I live, despite living in the same house for 20 years.  Once a year I must go and show them I have transferred  about 1,500 pounds a month into Thailand for the past year, with a copy of every page of my bankbook plus a letter from my bank giving my account details as of this morning, plus  copy of a dozen other documents. No free health treatment of course.

 

So why?  because I'm happily married to a wonderful woman here.  Both her daughters have got a good degree and both are working.  And the local people are wonderful.  But the beaurocracy hates us being non-asian. Oh, and I was once physically pulled out of a queue for a theme park because I was queuing with my wife and the girls but the foreigner's queue, with it's ten-fold entry fee was elsewhere.

 

Well obviously I don't support any of the stuff you have been subjected to... but it does not negate the racism which exists , alive and well, in the West.

[Brew 5,416]

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

The bottom line here is that neither Local Councils, nor Central Govt. are 'businesses',

 

To some extent I disagree. Governments are non-commercial organisations but are mainly run along business lines. Maybe not profit driven, but their sole purpose is to provide services as per their manifesto (mission statement) and are answerable to the stakeholders (electorate) the same as any corporate body. The management structure is pretty much the same too.

 

Officials are as you say the ones who make the arrangements within the  organisation, but that does not abrogate the elected ones responsibility for overseeing and ensuring it runs as it should. Who makes the final judgement?

I'm not an accountant, but I was of the opinion that a 'ring fenced' budget meant it was immune to virement and used only for its intended purpose.

 

12 hours ago, DJ360 said:

That in my experience is a massive oversimplification

 

It is somewhat, but there are times when 'nuances' become obstructions in seeing things clearly and in the round it is not that far off. 

Dido Harris is to my mind a clear example of a leader totally incompetent, her only talent is to screw up everything she does.  I'm sure that too is an over simplification, but at the end of the day how accurate is it?

Cummings, a legend in his own mind, is another

 

"We should be grateful for professional civil servants". Possibly, but we should also be able to rely on of the good sense and business acumen of our elected  representatives to curb any and all excesses. It's symbiotic, however the bottom line is head of Dept; is where the buck stops.

[philmayfield 6,130]

I read that the Government are looking at whether to use powers to take over Nottingham City Council. So the power could pass from one bunch of incompetents to another. I presume there are degrees of incompetency though.

[Brew 5,416]

Any incompetent can achieve an objective, they simply need an unlimited amount of someone else's money to do it.

 

Councillors should forget grandiose schemes and take Peter's advice and stick to their knitting.  Fine to try something new but recognise when it's not working and stop. Carrying on until it totally breaks is not big and it's not clever, nor is it showing leadership, it's demonstrating stupidity.

[DJ360 6,728]

10 hours ago, Brew said:

To some extent I disagree. Governments are non-commercial organisations but are mainly run along business lines. Maybe not profit driven, but their sole purpose is to provide services as per their manifesto (mission statement) and are answerable to the stakeholders (electorate) the same as any corporate body. The management structure is pretty much the same too.

 

They are not and should not be run on business lines.  That, I repeat, is an idea from Thatcher, enthusuastically taken up by others since.  But they don't buy into it for better services, they buy into it to grab the money.  But don't fool yourself that it is an improvement.  It very clearly is not.  It just results in lower wages, lower standards and failing services.  If that isn't obvious to everybody by now it never will be. 

Efficient use of funds is of course a good thing but that is patently not what happens. What happens is that Govt forces privatisation and in order to squeeze a profit, which should never have even been an objective in the first place.and that profit is taken instead of proper funding for salaries, training and effective service delivery. It really is the Tories demonstrating loud and clear that they understand the price of everything and the value of nothing.

10 hours ago, Brew said:

"We should be grateful for professional civil servants". Possibly, but we should also be able to rely on of the good sense and business acumen of our elected  representatives to curb any and all excesses. It's symbiotic, however the bottom line is head of Dept; is where the buck stops.

 

In broad terms I agree, and I'm not defending Nottm. Council because I don't have the detail, but it is also very easy to knock politicians at all levels.  I'd suggest trying the job on for size.  Even as a Parish Councillor I took 'heat' from people who just basically wanted to 'have a go'.

Good elected members are entitled to want to shake things up, but they should also listen to their full time officers, when it comes to what is possible/legal etc.

 

[Brew 5,416]

You seem to be concentrating on political theory and practice rather than the pragmatism and practicality of actually achieving objectives. Compare parliament with any large corporate structure and the similarities are obvious.

 

The actual nuts and bolts have nothing to do with politics, they're handled by civil servants who, as you pointed out, serve through many changes yet manage to keep their own little empires going regardless.

We may not like the results but the original point made was that large organisations are run pretty much along the same lines in terms of decision making and management structure. Not understanding that simple fact and how it all comes together is a major flaw for those wanting to lead

 

Elected officials don't need to know everything nor does anyone expect them to, but they should at least have enough knowledge and experience to manage the job with some degree of efficiency.

 

[Alpha 176]

Just a few thoughts and responce to the quotation, 

'It very clearly is not.  It just results in lower wages, lower standards and failing services.  If that is not obvious to everybody by now, it never will be'. 

 

Obviously, democratic elected government is severely flawed and not fit for purpose. Have we the wrong type of elected individuals in a position of authority (power)? Politically aligned higher officials (ministers) are not aligned to the rule of managed government via a hierarchy of skill, knowledge and competence in their given roles through experience, over time, but in their strict allegiance to Party dogma.

 

A number of politicians are in the political theatre for an easy life and the benefits so accrued of being in such grandiose life-styles and surroundings. Their dedication to Party rules when questioned by the media on current affairs becomes an embarrassment to listen to as they try all measures to deviate from answering a simple question on important current events. Political antics during parliamentory debate appear to focus on political point scoring trivia rather than seeking to resolve the more important social issues that effect us, the electorate.

 

 

[Cliff Ton 10,464]

I've often thought that politics is the employment option for people who think "I'm not really very good at anything, so I guess I'll end up working in politics".

[Alpha 176]

7 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

I've often thought that politics is the employment option for people who think "I'm not really very good at anything, so I guess I'll end up working in politics".

Or the church.