Anything Political

[letsavagoo 961]

My response was unashamedly ‘whataboutism’ with good reason and your reply is as close to an apology as you’re likely to give so I appreciate that. 
I will not defend or excuse failings of the government or individuals in government, where those failings are true that is. You say that I don’t give examples or as you put it ‘no cases’. I did actually mention a few that came to mind (Abbott, Vaz, Unite and Sue Gray). You are obviously well aware of the many failings in the wider political spectrum and I have absolutely no intention  of playing ‘top trumps’ of politicians and their donors misdemeanours. Life is too short but it’s not right, because it doesn’t suit your rhetoric to merely dismiss them as, quote ‘occasional indiscretions, crimes etc , which affect the whole political class’. You only ever mention the failings of the government in power, you cherry pick (understandably). Your enthusiasm to tarnish the government clouded your judgment and I was trying to redress the balance and point out that corruption, criminality and incompetence is not the exclusive domaine of the Tory’s.
There is something fundamentally wrong in politics today when the leader of the opposition cannot say what a woman is or 99% of women don’t have a penis. I despair. 

[letsavagoo 961]

The 2009 expenses scandal is all but forgotten but here’s a reminder. I won’t bother to break down party by party but you get the picture. They all have their snouts in the trough. Googling will reveal plenty of information. Here’s one.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1181189/Full-list-MPs-ministers-caught-expenses-scandal.html

 

Never mind though. Just one of  the occasional indiscretions, crimes etc , which affect the whole political class

[DJ360 6,721]

Sorry Letsav, but that link only seems to work for Gordon Brown. The rest is just pics with names but no text that I can access. Interestingly, the Brown case seems innocent enough to me. According to the text, Brown and his brother used the same cleaner. Brother paid him for all work and Brown reimbursed brother for his share. I'm struggling to see the impropriety.

On your other 'cases'. Keith Vaz as I understand  it was accused of engaging in homosexual activities, which might be distasteful for some, depending on their personal views, but which are not illegal between consenting adults. The allegation that Vaz offered Cocaine to his 'partners' would of course point to illegality for that element of things. However, there was no allegation of political corruption as far as I know and Vaz basically 'fessed up' and withdrew from politics. We could do with that response more often.

Sue Grey... It's pretty clear to me, and even to the BBC, that there's a strong element of 'politicking' behind this row.  It's telling that Johnson tried to claim that the Grey report exonerated him, but that now the Tories are trying to claim Grey has broken some rule. Smacks of clutching at straws to me.. Yet Grey, while refusing to bow to a 'Cabinet Office' ( and therefore politically loaded) 'kangaroo court', has clearly stated that she will abide by the view of the 'ACOBA' ( or thereabouts) Committee..which looks at potential conflict of interest.

Now. Let me re-state my argument re: the unique nature of this current Tory administration. I really do believe that this lot have taken corruption to heights not seen since the 18th C. There's an element of 'absolute power corrupts absolutely', no doubt fostered by their huge majority,..itself ill- gotten.

I'm not really interested in the personal weaknesses of individuals. I'm far more concerned with the abuse of power, because ultimately  politics is about the acquisition  and deployment of power.Johnson's farmyard morality is his own problem.. but his near dictatorship, mercifully short lived, is our shared problem. So too with his successors and co- conspirators.  Kuarteng, Owen Patterson, Zahawi, Raab, Patel, Braverman,  Jenrick and no doubt others.. it's difficult  to keep up..

I freely admit to my disappointment  with the current Labour lot.. though at their worst they cannot be as bad as the present Tories.

I'm interested in how you really feel about the present Tories.

[letsavagoo 961]

You demonstrate here precisely why I was reluctant to mention individual cases as it’s pointless with you. I didn’t post it because Brown was on it and if you had been able to read it you would see that members from all parties were involved in the scandal. Brown paying his brother for this or that is missing the point entirely. I did suggest you Google expenses scandal. I am trying to bring to your attention that corruption, dishonesty and downright criminality is alive and kicking across the political spectrum and I see no sense in going down the route of you agreeing to that but then saying ‘yes but your lot are more criminal than my lot’. Top trumps and I’m not playing. We should not accept the ‘occasional indiscretions crimes etc’ as being acceptable because they affect the whole political class or because they aren’t as bad as what the Tory’s are doing in power. Ridiculous.

I won’t dwell on individuals for the reasons given but I’ll be clear Mr Vaz’s homosexuality is his business and no concern to me.  Much more to it than that. Incidentally I believe he’s currently expressed an intention to return to politics. He has tried in the past.
The Sue Gray (not Grey) saga rolls on. 
I haven’t forgotten the expenses scandal and it set the tone for my current outlook. Many are In it for the power, prestige and benefits it brings. They expend more effort in bitching and snipping at each other than doing what’s right or good for the country.
Currently there is zero control on our borders, the heath service is failing, policing is hopeless, the courts in crisis, education is poor. I’m sure you can carry on and on so I won’t bother.  I think my attitude to voting will be like many others. No confidence in any of them.
Will Labour be any better in power? Blair taking us into an illegal war. The ‘sexed up’ WMD report and death of Dr David Kelly. The list could go on a on but would fall on deaf ears so I won’t waste my time. The list of failings on all sides is endless. My contempt stretches to them all. Even the SNP have got in on the act. We haven’t heard the last of that saga.
Voting is picking the best of several evils. Who will be the least bad not who will be the best. I’m sure many feel the same.
ps. Please don’t waste your time Col on writing an essay on Blair, the war, WMD’s, Dr Kelly, Mr Vaz or Sue Gray (not Grey) etc as I won’t respond. 

[letsavagoo 961]

I am not a fan of Lee Anderson, far from it but as this isn’t his post, he merely re posts it, I’ll link it here. I am well aware that you can counter with examples of Tory U turns but what’s the point. They’re all at it. Lies lies and more lies.

[Oztalgian 3,270]

Our state poliwafflers have yet again promised us cheaper electricity after the interconnector between South Australia and New South Wales is completed. If we added up all the savings the pollies  have promised us then the power companies would be paying us to take their electricity. It is a bit like the improved mpg promised with each new car model, if achieved cars would be doing 150+ miles per gallon. Do I believe them, not on your life, our power costs have gone up by 20% this year. Luckily we have not had too hot a summer, so we have not had to use the air conditioner that much.

[DJ360 6,721]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:58 AM, letsavagoo said:

My response was unashamedly ‘whataboutism’ with good reason and your reply is as close to an apology as you’re likely to give so I appreciate that. 

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

You demonstrate here precisely why I was reluctant to mention individual cases as it’s pointless with you.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

ps. Please don’t waste your time Col on writing an essay on Blair, the war, WMD’s, Dr Kelly, Mr Vaz or Sue Gray (not Grey) etc as I won’t respond. 

 

Letsav, it's my turn to be disappointed. I've ignored your personal digs so far, as I view these discussions, however 'robust', as being between friends, and about politics, not about posters. I'd prefer you didn't make it personal, or as in the last quote above, try to dictate what can and cannot be discussed.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

I didn’t post it because Brown was on it and if you had been able to read it you would see that members from all parties were involved in the scandal. Brown paying his brother for this or that is missing the point entirely. I did suggest you Google expenses scandal.

 

Of course I know about the expenses scandal and I'm as disgusted by it as you are. I only picked up the Brown example because it seemed so ludicrous. There were pics of Tories including Cameron, but no accessible text.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

I am trying to bring to your attention that corruption, dishonesty and downright criminality is alive and kicking across the political spectrum

 

Of course it is. I've never denied it and neither have I diminished it. I recognise the problem, but recognition does not equal acceptance. We should pursue all corruption and illegality in politics. Without exception. (I'll return to that last phrase)

 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

I see no sense in going down the route of you agreeing to that but then saying ‘yes but your lot are more criminal than my lot’. Top trumps and I’m not playing.

 

And this is the crux of our disagreement, on several levels.

 

Firstly, I don't have a 'lot'.  I've stated my political principles numerous times. I'm a Democratic Socialist.  Yes, in the past that would have put me firmly in the Labour Camp, but it's Labour who have changed, especially under Starmer. Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand where Labour are 'at' presently. I let my Labour membership expire years ago. That said, I live in a 'safe' Labour constituency and voting Labour is the best way here to keep the Tories out, so they'll likely get my vote in a General Election.

 

Secondly, the whole thrust of my argument around Tory corruption is to draw a clear distinction between 'The Conservatives' as a long standing political party and ideology, and 'These Conservatives', by which I mean the Tory Party and Government which has been in power since Cameron surrendered to his party's far right, lost his gamble and slunk away.

That is when we witnessed Johnson bringing our country and our Parliament into a Constitutional Crisis and the near collapse of our Democracy. Just as a reminder,whilst 'leading' a minority Govt., Johnson purged his party and Govt. of his opponents, and many true Democrats.  Farage and other Far Right actors went quiet as it seems much of what they wanted was implicit in Johnson's ambition and the less trumpeted parts of the 2019 Tory Manifesto. Remember that Johnson played the 'populist' buffoon, but he was the one whose first move as London Mayor was to purchase water cannon. What does that tell you about his mindset?  Add in the nefarious activities of the likes of the IEA and others who infest Tufton St, a massive majority, a Parliament crippled by Covid restrictions and you have ideal conditions for corruption, which in my view have been fully exploited by many in the present Tory Govt./Party. I said above that I'd return to the 'without exception' principle re corruption. Just one example among many. Jenrick's 'insider' favour to a developer, which cost a cash strapped London Council £millions, was simply waved away by Johnson with 'this matter is now closed'. Appalling.

 

Just to be super clear, I'm not playing 'Top Trumps', as you put it, between Tory and Labour, but trying to draw your attention to the rampant corruption in the current Tory Govt. and party.

 

Either you see it, and acknowledge it, or you don't. I see it clearly and I'm very far from being the only one.

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uk+government+corruption+examples&t=newext&atb=v356-1&ia=web

 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

P.S. 

On 5/3/2023 at 6:57 AM, letsavagoo said:

The list of failings on all sides is endless. My contempt stretches to them all. Even the SNP have got in on the act. We haven’t heard the last of that saga.
Voting is picking the best of several evils. Who will be the least bad not who will be the best. I’m sure many feel the same.

 

You are entitled to that view, but I see it as a bit of a cop out.  The way to deal with it is to continually demand high standards, to expose corruption and trumpet it loud and clear to those who are unaware or disinterested.

 

"All that is required for evil to succeed, is that good people do nothing."

[letsavagoo 961]

Hi Col. 
My comments were honestly not intended as personal digs. I suppose you can see them as such if you want to but in the 3 quotes you give in your post next but one above. 
1. I’m accepting what was, I think an apology. No dig intended there.

2. Statement of fact really.

3. In hindsight it can be seen as telling you what not to post but it wasn’t meant that way. It’s just you can go on a bit. (Fact not dig, honest)

 

 

I actually think we agree, well almost. The problem is that you constantly post Tory failings but never highlight criticism of the opposition or other parties or if you have they pale into obscurity in the barrage of your anti Tory rhetoric. I’d just like to see a more balance view. 

I can be abrasive, it’s my nature but it’s not personal. 
Any comments on the Lee Anderson link Col.

 

[philmayfield 6,115]

I’ve just been to vote at the village hall. I wasn’t going to bother but it’s my civic duty like paying homage to Charles. Obviously there’s no Labour candidate in my area so it was Tory, Lib Dem or Green. Only the Tory candidate had made an effort to deliver a notice. It looks like we’ll end up with the usual rabble in Newark and Sherwood. Interestingly a policeman came in whilst we were there and informed the clerks they should dial 999 or 101 if there was any trouble! He didn’t realise you can’t get a ‘phone signal in the hall and we haven’t had a riot here in all my 61 years. He glowered at my raucous laughter!

[letsavagoo 961]

For the first time in 50 years since I’ve been eligible to vote I’m not bothering this time. There was no screaming monster raving loony party on the cards to vote for (although the current Newark and Sherwood lot fit the loony bill) so I’ll give it a miss. Col is probably right and I shouldn’t sit on my hands but I don’t see any candidate who deserve my vote so my protest is not to vote. Voting for the ‘best fit’ would be a cop out for me.

[LizzieM 9,507]

This is the first time I won’t be voting either but only because we’re away and we didn’t arrange a postal vote because we should have been back home by now.  Our crosses wouldn’t make a jot of difference to the outcome of Nottingham City Council elections sadly.  
 

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

I have had a postal vote for years and my papers didn't arrive. Hmm! Must look into that.

[PeverilPeril 3,279]

I voted Independent because I believe that party politics should not influence local issues....and it's a LOCAL election after all!   

[loppylugs 8,427]

It may have been Mark Twain who said,   "If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it."

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

It was, indeed, Loppy. He wasn't wrong!

[Oztalgian 3,270]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:45 AM, PeverilPeril said:

I voted Independent because I believe that party politics should not influence local issues....and it's a LOCAL election after all!   

I don't understand why, but local council elections here are the only elections where voting is not compulsory. Only around 30% of eligible voters actually exercise their right to vote. It is ironic that many go on to complain about their local councils but could not be bothered to vote for change.

What is the typical voter turnout in the local elections in the UK?

[DJ360 6,721]

On 5/4/2023 at 9:15 PM, PeverilPeril said:

I voted Independent because I believe that party politics should not influence local issues....and it's a LOCAL election after all!   

I understand  your thinking PP and I've very occasionally voted for Independents, but only if they are known to me personally.

However, just voting for anyone calling themselves independent is frought with risk. I think I may have described what happened in our last local elections,when more than half of the existing parish council were unseated by 'Independents'. Two or three were relatives of another, who paid all of their election expenses  This chap had a big axe to grind so essentially 'bought' himself a group of 'Independents' There was nothing illegal in what he did, but how many would look into the background paperwork and see what he was up to? And of course a group of Independents is something of an oxymoron . 

Another, who had previously stood for Ukip and another far right party without success, stood as Independent and got elected   Has he changed his politics? I know him well and doubt it...

Finally, another 'Independebt' was 'outed' for making sexist and racist comments on facebook .

I think it's  also worth pointing out that while local councils may deal with local issues, they are not immune from national party politics. Local councils are very dependent on Central Govt for funding, they can be overruled in areas such as planning and they get issues such as social  care dumped on them by central govt.

In summary. It's difficult to separate levels of govt.

[PeverilPeril 3,279]

DJ - ready your last post is so depressing and makes me think that voting at all is a complete waste of time. As it happens, the two independents that I voted for are well known local people that are trusted to deal with local issues.

 

[philmayfield 6,115]

Here in Newark we’ve now got no overall control from being Tory for years. This is going to be fun watching democracy at work. My ward have elected a Liberal with a beard!

[Cliff Ton 10,457]

Nottingham City Council now has no Conservative councillors at all; the first time ever, apparently.

[HSR 286]

On 5/6/2023 at 7:44 AM, philmayfield said:

My ward have elected a Liberal with a beard!

 

Would that beard be ginger by any chance?

The amount of officialdom..with said, I find a little strange! 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

I waited until the Coronatiion was over with before commenting.

Tories took a hammering, though not enough of of one in my view for a Govt. which has broken everything. They tried to appear surprised that the electorate was a bit p'd off. 

Still to some extent they were spared the humiliation because the Coronation got in the way. I don't know who set the Coronation  date..but it was convenient. 'Bread and Circuses'  springs to mind.

As for the arrest of Republic protesters. Absolute confirmation of what I, Brew and many others predicted. Govt. has so far refused to condemn the actions of the Police, but also wants to distance from it. No doubt it is Tory blanket legislation to limit protest which caused this. Met Pilice just confirmed  their incompetence.

[HSR 286]

On 5/11/2023 at 12:38 AM, DJ360 said:

. 'Bread and Circuses'  springs to mind.

 

Hear we go again.. buzz phases..

What next .. optics? 

 

I agree with some of your sentiments, but I wouldn't call them a republic protest...

 

I consider the extended Royals 'liggers on'..

There's one,  I have only heard once, in 1973._

 

 

[letsavagoo 961]

I believe the coronation was an extraordinary event to police. The police had intelligence that the horses could be tear gassed or targeted the procession blocked and the proceedings seriously disrupted. I am not a royalist but we were on the world stage. Some may consider it was the correct time and place, indeed the ideal opportunity to protest but a few to spoil the enjoyment of thousands. I believe the police made the right call. My criticism of the police is it seems they have now apologised. Pathetic.