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Although it was promoted as a 'state' funeral, the so-called, family, should have footed the cost themselves. It is not as though they cannot afford it!

 

As an aside to the Windsor mafia, no doubt to boost their popularity, the inner circle of those mysterious courtiers have been using Kate (and family) at every publicity opportunity, presenting one's self as normal is grossly patronisingly and sickening. The difference between Kate and the overburdened working population is obvious.

 

The mandarins will stop at nothing and will use any opportunity to promote and raise the stature of this outdated society of this closed over privileged clan.  

 

 

 

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HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

On 5/23/2023 at 10:20 AM, Alpha said:

The mandarins will stop at nothing and will use any opportunity to promote and raise the stature of this outdated society of this closed over privileged clan.

 

Difficult to disagree.  I'm sure Kate is a lovely girl, but the royal switch from ostentatious privelege  to 'just 'like us', is hard to swallow. Of course they are just like us, except that they live in a cocooned environment of privelege and wealth.

 

In discussions around the Coronation, some TV pundit came out with the blindingly obvious statement that "Charles had always had a strong relationship with 'The Military' " ..  Really? No s*** Sherlock!! ALL monarchy has  strong links with 'The Military', for the obvious reason that 'Kings' and 'Queens' of the past were simply the individuals who were able to seize power by virtue of having the biggest gang behind them and then set about inventing cobblers about 'Divine Right', 'chosen by God/ the Gods' etc.  If the Plantagenets and Tudors taught us nothing else, they taught that 'might is right'.

 

I do accept that our 'Constitutional' Monarchy is largely subject to the will of Parliament and until fairly recently I was pretty neutral about their role, but I'm starting to see them as a 'weapon', increasingly yet subtly used by the 'Establishment' to maintain the Status Quo, by perpetuating the idea that some people, simply by dint of birth, are entitled to more respect, privelege and protection, than others.

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On 5/22/2023 at 8:12 PM, letsavagoo said:

I think it is important that I state again that the coronation was an extraordinary event. If it were not such a unique event my view would very likely be entirely different but then so would the police reaction too.

Can you for a moment consider the planning that must have gone into the security and safety of that operation. It will have been in planning for years and obviously with more urgency since the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II. The security of King Charles and the many distinguished guests and world leaders had to be considered. The safety and security of the huge crowds crammed into the streets are paramount and should a panic for whatever reason occur the potential for crush and death is real and probable. Think Hillsborough. 

All that to consider and plan for as well as dealing with the numerous groups that will seize the opportunity to protest. Not only the republican protesters but many others, some well known and other more fringe elements. Pro Palestine, Pro Israel, Just stop oil, trans rights etc etc. The list is endless.

The nature of protests have evolved over the years and as we have seen recently throwing paint and oil, chaining one’s self to street furniture and gluing hands to the road etc etc.

So an unprecedented event in difficult times with the potential for crush injury and death in hugely crowded streets.

The police and security services will have been gathering intelligence for months. Social media, informants, under cover agents and numerous other methods we don’t nor won’t know of. All intelligence is assessed, graded as unlikely from an untested source to highly probable from reliable known source. We don’t know nor never will fully know the information the police were in receipt of in relation to planned actions by some of the many groups that will cease the day to disrupt but I don’t envy those that were making decisions to ensure the safety of all those attending from the Royal family to world leaders and general public.

 

Crikey Lets.!! You can go on a bit! ;)

 

Of course we all understand the security issues around the Coronation, but not sure Hillsboro is a good example of the potential for disaster, unless you are looking for an example of Police incompetence, deliberately covered up.

 

It's pleasing that you seem willing to acknowledge that 'Republic' and others got a raw deal.  I'd go further and say Republic were deliberately targeted. They were clearly the most challenging to the idea of Monarchy, though they themselves are at pains to point out that they are not so much 'anti Monarchy', as 'Pro Republican' We need to step back here for a moment. The Law has already been changed, to outlaw 'locking on', such as chaining , glueing or otherwise fixing oneself to some immovable object. That was the crux of the issue with Republic and the Police. The Police decided that the luggage straps used to bundle dozens of banners together, could be used for 'locking on'.  At the subsequent Parliamentary Committee hearing, the Republic leader explained that not only were the luggage straps incapable of being locked, but that they were entirely unsuitable for 'locking on' and in any event, easily cut with scissors or a knife. The Senior Police Officer at the hearing did not challenge that.

 

On the other hand, I'm disappointed that you are 'struggling to shed a tear' for individuals who were clearly and falsely victimised by the Police.  However you try to minimise it, those people had their individual rights infringed, and that is not a matter which can be simply dismissed as 'only a few'. It is to do with the fundamental principles of our democracy. I contend that those principles are under attack from a far right Govt., which seeks to reduce the rights of the individual and to dangerously alter the power relationship between the Law.. which should protect us all equally, and Govt. which seeks to protect itself and its fellow travellers by overriding the Law. Once the Govt. also becomes the Law, we are sunk as a Democracy. You don't seem bothered by this.

 

From Conservative Manifesto 2019.  Read between the lines.  "After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts; the functioning of the Royal Prerogative; the role of the House of Lords; and access to justice for ordinary people. The ability of our security services to defend us against terrorism and organised crime is critical. We will update the Human Rights Act and administrative law to ensure that there is a proper balance between the rights of individuals, our vital national security and effective government. We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays. In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come up with proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our democracy operates." and "To support free speech, we will repeal section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2014, which seeks to coerce the press. We will not proceed with the second stage of the Leveson Inquiry."

 

That stuff is vague, but dangerous and mixes alleged concern for the individual, with a clear intention to alter the balance of power between Govt., Parliament and the Law. Such moves are frequently the first acts of Dictators and Totalitarian Governments.

 

I have to take Mrs Col to the Hospital now, , so I'll pick up on some other points later.

 

 

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Yes but I did say they got a raw deal on the face of it. 
Without knowing what if any information the police had I don’t think you can say they were clearly and falsely victimised by the Police. Why should you assume that there was no malignant element among their ranks. The event went off without any security or harm so the police operation was a success. It may well have done had the republican demonstrators that were detained were not so detained. 
I merely mentioned Hillsborough as an example that everyone is familiar with of people dying in situations where large crowds are gathered. In 2015 a crowd crush and stampede resulted in the death of 2000 individuals at the Hajj pilgrimage in Mina, Saudi Arabia and they managed that without any help from the British police.

I won’t go on. 

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It is very obvious that we are both entrenched in our respective views and I see no point and have no appetite to post further on this subject so I won’t.  

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That's your privelege Letsav, but from my perspective it's a pity.

I was enjoying the discussion which touched on important Democratic principles which I believe are under attack. And of course I flatter myself that others may be looking in... Whether they agree with you, me, both or neither of us is irrelevant. From my perspective, anything which gets people thinking about what is really happening in their name, is a 'good thing'.

 

I share people's concerns over thet tactics of some protestors, but from my perspective the Coronation was not only a genuine 'headache', for Police, but also an ideal opportunity for Govt. to 'trial' it's new anti-protest laws.

 

As I said, I had to break off replying to you to take Mrs Col to the hospital for an eye operation. A 'Blepharoplasty', which involved surgery to the inside of both eyelids. When I picked her up a few hours later she looked as if she'd gone several unsuccessful rounds with Mike Tyson and was in  lot of pain. 3 days on she still is.

 

I said I'd finish my reponse when I got back. It's up to you whether you see this as still 'this subject' and whether you want to respond.

 

I wanted to ask you outright whether or not you agree with me that the present Tory Party and Govt., is qualitatively different from previous Tory administrations. It's a proposition I've made previously, and which you have not responded to.

I contend that it is and I quoted a paragraph from their 2019 manifesto to illustrate my point. I saw that paragraph as a thinly disguised assault on our fundamental institutions.. Parliament and The Law, mixed up with vague references to individual access to justice, a rejection of the Leveson Enquiry recommendations etc. I saw much of it as Johnson seeking revenge against Parliament and The Law for not allowing him to ride roughshod over our cherished Democratic Institutions when in a Minority Govt. His successors are still at it.

 

I contend that the present Tory Govt. and much of the Party is unduly influenced by the Far Right., who are fundamentally undemocratic.

 

Just a few examples:

 

-Jacob Rees-Mogg's .'European Research Group' (ERG). The Brexit Lie Machine.

-'Institute of Economic Affairs'  based in Tufton St London. This lot are simply a front for extreme 'neo-Con players funded by Oil and Tobacco interests.

 

-More recently, the emergence of the 'National Conservatives', who are about as far right as it is possible to get without openly declaring yourself a Nazi:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/14/who-are-national-conservatives-and-what-do-they-want

 

Even their title abbreviates to 'NatC'.. Geddit?

 

-And then of course there are Govt. 'vetting rules', introduced I think by Rees-Mogg, which saw a World expert on Nerve Agents, 'disinvited' from a Govt. backed conference on 'Nerve Agents', because they rummaged through his Twitter account and found he'd been critical of Govt. in entirely different policy areas.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65675247

 

- Govt. move to hobble the independence of the Electoral Commission.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/while-you-werent-looking-the-tories-took-over-the-electoral-commission-320881/

 

-The current silence of a whole range of Far Right,  Racist, Xenophobic, Neo Nazi parties including the BNP, Britain First, National Front, Ukip/Reform or whatever they're called this week.. etc. Silent because the present Tories are acting for them.

 

 

I could go on at length and haven't even started on graft, corruption, theft etc.. but you get the picture.. Does this stuff worry you or not?

 

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Incidentally, does the stuff I outline above not worry anyone here?

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I don't worry about anything. Worry is pointless. It keeps you awake at night. It raises your blood pressure. It adversely affects your mental health. It, possibly, causes cancer. Worry is no good to anyone, so don't do it.  The world is not a fair place. It never has been and it never will be. Is it even meant to be? That bothers a lot of people. However, as I've mentioned before, I don't subscribe to the 'we are only here once' philosophy. I see it as many experiences over many lifetimes. Things even out that way. There are bills to pay and we all pay them. I watch my own actions and my own motivations. I can do nothing  about those of anyone else and it isn't my business to do so. I'm not dragging religion into the debate. I'm not a religious person. I just don't see the point of getting all steamed up about it.

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‘Mental health’ as an excuse seems to be a fairly recent invention. When I was running a factory ‘bad back’ was the excuse for not turning up for work. Both are problems that cannot easily be verified by the medical profession. There are, of course, genuine cases but how are they identified? 

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I don't see any point in getting worried.  You can find whatever you want to find if you think it's there, and you go looking for it.

 

It depends on your political/social views; something which worries one person is the sensible, obvious solution to someone else. 

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Some years ago, I worked with a woman who was a fairly senior manager. Nice enough person but she was obsessed by the possibility of war. Ten times a day she'd be heard asking people, "Do you think there'll be another war?"  Worrying about the possibility totally undermined her ability to do her job and resulted in huge amounts of sick leave.

 

She asked me her usual question one morning and I replied, quite honestly, that I didn't know but that if those in charge of the weapons decided to use them, there was nothing either she or I could do about it. This clearly upset her and I asked her what it was she was afraid of, exactly. Was she afraid of dying because she must surely realize that, in the words of Hamlet's mother, all that lives must die. The fact that she had been born guaranteed that one day her death would occur. It seemed to be a subject she had given little thought. The poor woman was just paralyzed by her obsession with the prospect of nuclear annihilation.  Goodness knows what she's doing these days, given the state of aggression on this planet.

 

I concluded   that the poor woman wasn't just terrified of death, she was also terrified of life. Spend your days  getting wound up about things you have no control over and your existence, along with that of those around you, is going to be bl**dy miserable.

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Similar sorts of people used to be in institutions like Saxondale and Mapperley Hospital. Maybe many of them shouldn’t have been incarcerated but what about the others and where are they now that these institutions are no more?

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If a problem  occurs you have 2 options either you can do something about it , so no need to worry or you cannot do anything about it so again no need to worry.

My friend has recently been diagnosed with Parkinson’s, he became fed up with people giving sympathy to him, now if anyone starts on that he tells them in no uncertain way no I don’t worry about it I have more chance of be killed by being knocked down by a bus and I don’t dwell on that. I think he has a great attitude.

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Your friend is very sensible, Trogg. Parkinson's is not a pleasant condition and, at present, there is neither a cure nor an explanation of what causes it, in most cases. Therefore, as they say, what cannot be cured must be endured. A metaphor for life, really. All things are temporary, thankfully.

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Jill he does joke that when he had it diagnosed by his Consultant he was told it was to do with his brain, now he counters everyone at least he has had it confirmed by a specialist he has a brain have they.

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DJ.

I think the current government are terrible. It matters not to me whether they are qualitatively different from previous administrations as I have no faith whatsoever in them or in the opposition. As I have mentioned previously the expenses scandal totally shattered my faith and trust in MP’s, that’s all of them whatever their flavour. I see they still claim fixed penalty charges under travel expenses and false claims are still on the menu. I think Labour under Blair were terrible and Starmer is hopeless seeking pathetic gimmicks to curry favour his latest being he’ll stop oil drilling in the North Sea. Quoting the Guardian with its left wing bias doesn’t convince me of anything and how you claim with the current lack of action by the Tory’s, allowing illegal immigration on an industrial scale and doing absolutely zero about it makes them Racist, Xenophobic, Neo Nazis etc is a mystery. Quite the opposite I’d suggest.
We’ll never agree on protests but the current trend of throwing powders, paint and locking on is unacceptable. If the law needs changing to stop it them I am sure the vast majority of the public won’t see it as an ideal opportunity for Govt. to 'trial' it's new anti-protest laws but as common sense and not as you do as denying the democratic right to protest. I saw the coverage recently of the police detaining a driver who had pushed a protester out the road in order to move and earn a living. Seems like the police were actively protecting the protesters doesn’t it. How does that fit in with the anti protest theory. I know it shouldn’t but when you go on about ‘democratic right to protest’ it makes me think of the old sit com Citizen Smith’

I wonder how you would react if just stop oil had prevented Mrs DJ getting to hospital and I’m sorry to hear of Mrs Cols pains and hope she feels better soon. 

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18 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I don't worry about anything. Worry is pointless. It keeps you awake at night. It raises your blood pressure. It adversely affects your mental health. It, possibly, causes cancer. Worry is no good to anyone, so don't do it

 

Crikey!! What's in a word Eh?  Maybe 'Worry' was ill-chosen..  Maybe rather see my meaning as 'concern,appall, disgust, anger, frustrate,  and many other synonyms... I genuinely don't lose sleep over Politics.  I'm very familiar with true Anxiety and Politics is not something which triggers it in me.

Some while back I posted to the effect that Politics is not some abstract concept. Politics is essentially 'Who gets what', whether it be power, money, resources, etc. You can ignore it if you want, but you cannot insulate yourself from its effects.

 

18 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I watch my own actions and my own motivations. I can do nothing  about those of anyone else and it isn't my business to do so.

 

 

I disagree and so I think would John Donne:

 

"No Man Is an Island

 

No man is an island,

Entire of itself;

Every man is a piece of the continent, 

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less,

As well as if a promontory were:

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee."

 

In a Democracy, the way other people vote doesn't just affect them..it also affects me and vice versa.

 

In a practical sense, I do feel obliged to highlight what I see as anti-democratic action. As I've been at pains to point out, I've lived for 74 years so far under numerous Tory and Labour Govt.s. and the odd coalition.  Whilst I agreed or disagreed with them to a greater or lesser extent, they all played broadly within 'the rules', by which I mean the rules of our Democracy, in which Parliament scrutinises the actions of Govt., and our independent Judiciary, a.k.a. 'The Law' can intervene to stop Govt. from acting illegally. This last point is crucial. As I've said many times, once the Govt. becomes the Judiciary, as opposed to the Legislature..Democracy is in trouble. We've all seen this happen in Turkey, Russia and India, where Democracy has been usurped by Erdogan, Putin and Modi. America came close to a collapse of Democracy under Trump.

The UK under the current 'Conservatives' is presently following a similar path. Those of us who value our freedom and our Democracy should all be concerned.

 

17 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

I don't see any point in getting worried.  You can find whatever you want to find if you think it's there, and you go looking for it.

 

It depends on your political/social views; something which worries one person is the sensible, obvious solution to someone else. 

 

Kev, you can also find what you don't want to find, and feel obliged to share your findings.

I'm convinced that the average level of political awareness in the UK is pretty low. People are simply unaware of the darker ambitions and machinations of the Tory right.  From where I sit,  'They're all the same' is just lazy simplistic thinking.

 

15 hours ago, trogg said:

If a problem  occurs you have 2 options either you can do something about it , so no need to worry or you cannot do anything about it so again no need to worry.

 

Mick, I agree in principle and although I'm not remotely religious, I try to follow the well known 'Serenity Prayer'

 

'God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.'

 

The above isn't just about accepting stuff.  It's also a call to action.  Accept what you can't change, but where you can effect change, do it!

 

The thing about Politics in a Democracy is that very few individuals have the power/influence to bring about change by themselves. (Unless some unelected 'Rent a Gob' like Farage gets constantly platformed on the Telly)  It's more about the cumulative effect of individual votes. So, with my single vote I can't change much, but if I can raise awareness and influence others' votes, just maybe..   I'm unhappy doing less.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

with my single vote I can't change much, but if I can raise awareness and influence others' votes, just maybe..   I'm unhappy doing less.

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it because you want everyone to think as you do? The world would be a wonderful place if everyone saw life through your eyes? People have their own eyes. Please grant others the courtesy of thinking for themselves. Their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are just as valid as yours, you know. :rolleyes:

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21 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm convinced that the average level of political awareness in the UK is pretty low. People are simply unaware of the darker ambitions and machinations of the Tory right. 

 

That's rather a condescending attitude towards others; and also a very politically-biased statement. (And I'm definitely no great supporter of the current Tory Government).

 

Some people - although not me - would say that those 'Tory machinations' are exactly what the country needs at the moment. They fully understand what is being said.

 

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23 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it because you want everyone to think as you do? The world would be a wonderful place if everyone saw life through your eyes? People have their own eyes. Please grant others the courtesy of thinking for themselves. Their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are just as valid as yours, you know. :rolleyes:

 

Why do you choose to speculate around those four, essentially negative and selfish motivations, despite what I have said?

Of course people can and will think for themselves, but they will only think about what they know about.

The stuff I'm trying to bring to the fore doesn't make the mainstream news, and is hardly likely to be trumpeted in the UK press, which is dominated by a mix of Right Wing populist stuff  (Mail, Sun etc.) and 'Establishment' stuff such as The Times. It's also unlikely to make the mainstream TV News, because the News rarely probes beneath the superficial veneer of Politics, and in the case of the BBC at least, sticks rigidly to the conventional view of Economics and often 'platforms' unelected representatives of 'entities', such as the IEA, ERG, etc.. , in the name of supposed 'balance', without examining their real 'raison d'etre'.

 

 

My motivations are two-fold,

 

1. Self Preservation., which isn't quite the same as selfishness, because it's possible to be self preserving and altruistic simultaneously.  As I pointed out above, the way other people vote affects my life. I don't want to re-hash the debate, but as an example, I didn't vote for Brexit. Yet, just like the vast majority of the UK population, I'm suffering from the real life effects of its false ambition and disastrous implementation. Even Farage says Brexit is a disaster, though I suspect that's just him looking for another way of getting his face on the Telly.

 

Are you saying that I should not have argued against Brexit, as I did here and elsewhere? Should I not have challenged the lies propagated by 'Leave', or tried to highlight the ulterior motives of the likes of Rees-Mogg and his ERG? There may well be valid reasons why some would want to 'Leave', but they weren't the ones employed by 'Leave'. Big Red Bus anyone?

 

Campaigning, persuading and influencing are part of political action.  They aren't only the preserve of the Press, Election Candidates, formal Political Parties etc. We are all affected by politics in every aspect of our lives. We can't escape politics. Thus we are all entitled to not only hold our own views, but to express them and debate them.

 

2. Altruism. I see it as part of my responsibility as a human being, to inform.

Second example. A neighbour and friend of mine is a lifelong Tory voter, as is her right. However, she is also disenchanted with the present lot,  and was therefore delighted to find that in the last Local Elections here, a whole group of 'Independents' suddenly appeared. I cautioned against voting for any 'Independent' whose political motivations are obscured by the vagueness of the 'independent' tag.. Sadly, she went ahead anyway and contributed to the victories of four candidates 'pushing' the  'grudge' agenda of their group leader, who paid all of their election expenses, plus a former BNP member, failed Ukip candidate etc.. who stood as 'Independent', and another, whose misogynist and racist views only came to light after his election. At least I tried.

 

A final observation.  I spent 30 years of my working life as a fully qualified Career Adviser. I won't bore you with the training and qualifications required, but suffice to say, before my profession was destroyed (by both Labour's Blunkett and the Tories' Gove), my role was , at heart, simply to help mostly young people to arrive at informed decisions as to their way forward from wherever they were. So, educational choices, course choices, occupational choices, etc.,etc. 

As such, it wasn't my role to tell young people what to do. Rather, it was my role (and duty) to check their understanding of themselves (capabilities, interests, motivations etc.),against the range of education, training, employment options available and to encourage achievable objectives.

In my view, it was, and remains, unreasonable to expect that after 11 years of compulsory education, all young people will understand themselves and the opportunity structure they face, well enough to make informed choices without some help. A small number will. The majority will benefit from and appreciate some assistance, some people will always need help.

 

The parallels are obvious.

 

23 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

 

That's rather a condescending attitude towards others; and also a very politically-biased statement. (And I'm definitely no great supporter of the current Tory Government).

 

Some people - although not me - would say that those 'Tory machinations' are exactly what the country needs at the moment. They fully understand what is being said.

 

 

You could see it that way Kev, though I rather hope that, having met me on several ocasions, you don't find me quite that arrogant or condescending. :)

Frankly, I see my view of the electorate as a whole as pretty much pragmatic. As I tried to outline above, people are entitled to think and vote as they wish.. but if their voting is based on a partial view of the facts, then in my view it becomes problematic.

I speak to people in the pub. I speak to neighbours, relatives and friends, I see the sort of utterances which emerge on TV, and the 'vox pops', segments of news programmes. I rarely encounter much in depth stuff.

 

Yes, it's a politically biased statement, but no less valid for it. I make no secret of my political views. (You may have noticed..:rolleyes:)

My first Lecturer in Political Theory at Uni, pretty much started by telling us his personal political convictions and then said words to the effect that 'now you know, and can make allowances'.

 

But when I refer to 'machinations', I'm not talking about Sunak, Rees-Moggs or Braverman's public pronouncements, in Parliament, the press or elsewhere. 

I'm quite sure most people understand what is being said. I'm referring to what isn't said... Realistically, how many voters have a clue about the activities of lobbying groups, the influence of the US far right on the UK Tory Party etc? Similarly, how many are even aware that there's an entirely different view of economics in general and issues such as Public Borrowing, Inflation etc., which points to entirely different Policies, from the endless cuts, austerity, wage 'restraint', etc which constantly falls onto the shoulders of the poorest?

If I can help one person to see that.. I'm happier.

 

Finally.  I know a bit about politics, a bit about music and a few other topics. I tend to post on those.

I know nothing about Football, little about sport in general etc., so on those I have no opinion.

 

I'm mystified as to why it should be thought that everybody has equal knowledge and understanding of politics.

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47 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Are you saying that I should not have argued against Brexit, as I did here and elsewhere? Should I not have challenged the lies propagated by 'Leave',

I am not saying anything of the sort.  I do not presume to tell you, or anyone else, what to do; firstly because I have no right to do so and secondly because what you and other people do generally doesn't interest me one iota.

 

However, trying to 'inform' people about the darker corners and off the beaten track areas of party politics, etc, is just another form of proselytizing, to me. No different from the Jehovah's Witnesses who stand for hours on street corners offering free bible courses and what they perceive as salvation. They, too want to open people's eyes to what they believe they have found. What is their motive? What is the motive of anyone who wants to influence someone other than themselves? I suspect it's far less altruistic than they claim.

 

Many years ago, when I was all fired up about going to teacher training college, an old chap looked me in the eye and said, "For every person who wants to teach, there are thirty others who don't want to learn."  That nugget of wisdom applies to 'informing' people about anything.  That said, if you feel it's your vocation to preach the political gospel, I wouldn't stand in your way. I'd walk straight past and wouldn't listen to a word you were saying but I certainly wouldn't stand in your way. ;)

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27 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

No different from the Jehovah's Witnesses who stand for hours on street corners offering free bible courses and what they perceive as salvation.

 

Entirely different. 

What the JWs, and in my estimation ALL religious groups offer, is their version of a fiction, for which there is no proof whatever.

What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.

 

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29 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

What is their motive? What is the motive of anyone who wants to influence someone other than themselves? I suspect it's far less altruistic than they claim.

 

What would be my motive if I ran into a building shouting 'Fire', if there actually was a fire.  Would I be trying to warn occupants, to leave, or just 'proselytising'?

 

Over the last few years I have watched numerous  Democratic countries turn to the political right, some still just about Democratic, such as the US, Italy, India and Hungary, some already clearly authoritarian and dictatorial, like Russia, and some teetering on the edge, like Turkey.  This country, under this Govt., is showing clear signs of the same process. If we both live long enough, and if my 'bit', can help avert disaster, you may one day thank me for what you describe as Proselytising. (Rather stretching the definition or proselytising in my view, but whatever.

 

Is the following Proselytising, or warning?

 

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

 

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43 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.

Such evangelical zeal! I'm sure you'll be rewarded, at some time, in some way. If it makes you happy and keeps you from robbing banks, where's the harm?

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Gosh!  That's very nearly an endorsement!

 

What keeps you from robbing banks?

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