Anything Political

[DJ360 6,721]

18 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I don't worry about anything. Worry is pointless. It keeps you awake at night. It raises your blood pressure. It adversely affects your mental health. It, possibly, causes cancer. Worry is no good to anyone, so don't do it

 

Crikey!! What's in a word Eh?  Maybe 'Worry' was ill-chosen..  Maybe rather see my meaning as 'concern,appall, disgust, anger, frustrate,  and many other synonyms... I genuinely don't lose sleep over Politics.  I'm very familiar with true Anxiety and Politics is not something which triggers it in me.

Some while back I posted to the effect that Politics is not some abstract concept. Politics is essentially 'Who gets what', whether it be power, money, resources, etc. You can ignore it if you want, but you cannot insulate yourself from its effects.

 

18 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

I watch my own actions and my own motivations. I can do nothing  about those of anyone else and it isn't my business to do so.

 

 

I disagree and so I think would John Donne:

 

"No Man Is an Island

 

No man is an island,

Entire of itself;

Every man is a piece of the continent, 

A part of the main.

If a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less,

As well as if a promontory were:

As well as if a manor of thy friend's

Or of thine own were.

Any man's death diminishes me,

Because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;

It tolls for thee."

 

In a Democracy, the way other people vote doesn't just affect them..it also affects me and vice versa.

 

In a practical sense, I do feel obliged to highlight what I see as anti-democratic action. As I've been at pains to point out, I've lived for 74 years so far under numerous Tory and Labour Govt.s. and the odd coalition.  Whilst I agreed or disagreed with them to a greater or lesser extent, they all played broadly within 'the rules', by which I mean the rules of our Democracy, in which Parliament scrutinises the actions of Govt., and our independent Judiciary, a.k.a. 'The Law' can intervene to stop Govt. from acting illegally. This last point is crucial. As I've said many times, once the Govt. becomes the Judiciary, as opposed to the Legislature..Democracy is in trouble. We've all seen this happen in Turkey, Russia and India, where Democracy has been usurped by Erdogan, Putin and Modi. America came close to a collapse of Democracy under Trump.

The UK under the current 'Conservatives' is presently following a similar path. Those of us who value our freedom and our Democracy should all be concerned.

 

17 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

I don't see any point in getting worried.  You can find whatever you want to find if you think it's there, and you go looking for it.

 

It depends on your political/social views; something which worries one person is the sensible, obvious solution to someone else. 

 

Kev, you can also find what you don't want to find, and feel obliged to share your findings.

I'm convinced that the average level of political awareness in the UK is pretty low. People are simply unaware of the darker ambitions and machinations of the Tory right.  From where I sit,  'They're all the same' is just lazy simplistic thinking.

 

15 hours ago, trogg said:

If a problem  occurs you have 2 options either you can do something about it , so no need to worry or you cannot do anything about it so again no need to worry.

 

Mick, I agree in principle and although I'm not remotely religious, I try to follow the well known 'Serenity Prayer'

 

'God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.^'

 

The above isn't just about accepting stuff.  It's also a call to action.  Accept what you can't change, but where you can effect change, do it!

 

The thing about Politics in a Democracy is that very few individuals have the power/influence to bring about change by themselves. (Unless some unelected 'Rent a Gob' like Farage gets constantly platformed on the Telly)  It's more about the cumulative effect of individual votes. So, with my single vote I can't change much, but if I can raise awareness and influence others' votes, just maybe..   I'm unhappy doing less.

 

 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

22 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

with my single vote I can't change much, but if I can raise awareness and influence others' votes, just maybe..   I'm unhappy doing less.

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it because you want everyone to think as you do? The world would be a wonderful place if everyone saw life through your eyes? People have their own eyes. Please grant others the courtesy of thinking for themselves. Their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are just as valid as yours, you know. 

[Cliff Ton 10,458]

21 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm convinced that the average level of political awareness in the UK is pretty low. People are simply unaware of the darker ambitions and machinations of the Tory right. 

 

That's rather a condescending attitude towards others; and also a very politically-biased statement. (And I'm definitely no great supporter of the current Tory Government).

 

Some people - although not me - would say that those 'Tory machinations' are exactly what the country needs at the moment. They fully understand what is being said.

 

[DJ360 6,721]

23 hours ago, Jill Sparrow said:

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it because you want everyone to think as you do? The world would be a wonderful place if everyone saw life through your eyes? People have their own eyes. Please grant others the courtesy of thinking for themselves. Their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are just as valid as yours, you know. 

 

Why do you choose to speculate around those four, essentially negative and selfish motivations, despite what I have said?

Of course people can and will think for themselves, but they will only think about what they know about.

The stuff I'm trying to bring to the fore doesn't make the mainstream news, and is hardly likely to be trumpeted in the UK press, which is dominated by a mix of Right Wing populist stuff  (Mail, Sun etc.) and 'Establishment' stuff such as The Times. It's also unlikely to make the mainstream TV News, because the News rarely probes beneath the superficial veneer of Politics, and in the case of the BBC at least, sticks rigidly to the conventional view of Economics and often 'platforms' unelected representatives of 'entities', such as the IEA, ERG, etc.. , in the name of supposed 'balance', without examining their real 'raison d'etre'.

 

 

My motivations are two-fold,

 

1. Self Preservation., which isn't quite the same as selfishness, because it's possible to be self preserving and altruistic simultaneously.  As I pointed out above, the way other people vote affects my life. I don't want to re-hash the debate, but as an example, I didn't vote for Brexit. Yet, just like the vast majority of the UK population, I'm suffering from the real life effects of its false ambition and disastrous implementation. Even Farage says Brexit is a disaster, though I suspect that's just him looking for another way of getting his face on the Telly.

 

Are you saying that I should not have argued against Brexit, as I did here and elsewhere? Should I not have challenged the lies propagated by 'Leave', or tried to highlight the ulterior motives of the likes of Rees-Mogg and his ERG? There may well be valid reasons why some would want to 'Leave', but they weren't the ones employed by 'Leave'. Big Red Bus anyone?

 

Campaigning, persuading and influencing are part of political action.  They aren't only the preserve of the Press, Election Candidates, formal Political Parties etc. We are all affected by politics in every aspect of our lives. We can't escape politics. Thus we are all entitled to not only hold our own views, but to express them and debate them.

 

2. Altruism. I see it as part of my responsibility as a human being, to inform.

Second example. A neighbour and friend of mine is a lifelong Tory voter, as is her right. However, she is also disenchanted with the present lot,  and was therefore delighted to find that in the last Local Elections here, a whole group of 'Independents' suddenly appeared. I cautioned against voting for any 'Independent' whose political motivations are obscured by the vagueness of the 'independent' tag.. Sadly, she went ahead anyway and contributed to the victories of four candidates 'pushing' the  'grudge' agenda of their group leader, who paid all of their election expenses, plus a former BNP member, failed Ukip candidate etc.. who stood as 'Independent', and another, whose misogynist and racist views only came to light after his election. At least I tried.

 

A final observation.  I spent 30 years of my working life as a fully qualified Career Adviser. I won't bore you with the training and qualifications required, but suffice to say, before my profession was destroyed (by both Labour's Blunkett and the Tories' Gove), my role was , at heart, simply to help mostly young people to arrive at informed decisions as to their way forward from wherever they were. So, educational choices, course choices, occupational choices, etc.,etc. 

As such, it wasn't my role to tell young people what to do. Rather, it was my role (and duty) to check their understanding of themselves (capabilities, interests, motivations etc.),against the range of education, training, employment options available and to encourage achievable objectives.

In my view, it was, and remains, unreasonable to expect that after 11 years of compulsory education, all young people will understand themselves and the opportunity structure they face, well enough to make informed choices without some help. A small number will. The majority will benefit from and appreciate some assistance, some people will always need help.

 

The parallels are obvious.

 

23 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

 

That's rather a condescending attitude towards others; and also a very politically-biased statement. (And I'm definitely no great supporter of the current Tory Government).

 

Some people - although not me - would say that those 'Tory machinations' are exactly what the country needs at the moment. They fully understand what is being said.

 

 

You could see it that way Kev, though I rather hope that, having met me on several ocasions, you don't find me quite that arrogant or condescending.

Frankly, I see my view of the electorate as a whole as pretty much pragmatic. As I tried to outline above, people are entitled to think and vote as they wish.. but if their voting is based on a partial view of the facts, then in my view it becomes problematic.

I speak to people in the pub. I speak to neighbours, relatives and friends, I see the sort of utterances which emerge on TV, and the 'vox pops', segments of news programmes. I rarely encounter much in depth stuff.

 

Yes, it's a politically biased statement, but no less valid for it. I make no secret of my political views. (You may have noticed..)

My first Lecturer in Political Theory at Uni, pretty much started by telling us his personal political convictions and then said words to the effect that 'now you know, and can make allowances'.

 

But when I refer to 'machinations', I'm not talking about Sunak, Rees-Moggs or Braverman's public pronouncements, in Parliament, the press or elsewhere. 

I'm quite sure most people understand what is being said. I'm referring to what isn't said... Realistically, how many voters have a clue about the activities of lobbying groups, the influence of the US far right on the UK Tory Party etc? Similarly, how many are even aware that there's an entirely different view of economics in general and issues such as Public Borrowing, Inflation etc., which points to entirely different Policies, from the endless cuts, austerity, wage 'restraint', etc which constantly falls onto the shoulders of the poorest?

If I can help one person to see that.. I'm happier.

 

Finally.  I know a bit about politics, a bit about music and a few other topics. I tend to post on those.

I know nothing about Football, little about sport in general etc., so on those I have no opinion.

 

I'm mystified as to why it should be thought that everybody has equal knowledge and understanding of politics.

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

47 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Are you saying that I should not have argued against Brexit, as I did here and elsewhere? Should I not have challenged the lies propagated by 'Leave',

I am not saying anything of the sort.  I do not presume to tell you, or anyone else, what to do; firstly because I have no right to do so and secondly because what you and other people do generally doesn't interest me one iota.

 

However, trying to 'inform' people about the darker corners and off the beaten track areas of party politics, etc, is just another form of proselytizing, to me. No different from the Jehovah's Witnesses who stand for hours on street corners offering free bible courses and what they perceive as salvation. They, too want to open people's eyes to what they believe they have found. What is their motive? What is the motive of anyone who wants to influence someone other than themselves? I suspect it's far less altruistic than they claim.

 

Many years ago, when I was all fired up about going to teacher training college, an old chap looked me in the eye and said, "For every person who wants to teach, there are thirty others who don't want to learn."  That nugget of wisdom applies to 'informing' people about anything.  That said, if you feel it's your vocation to preach the political gospel, I wouldn't stand in your way. I'd walk straight past and wouldn't listen to a word you were saying but I certainly wouldn't stand in your way. 

[DJ360 6,721]

27 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

No different from the Jehovah's Witnesses who stand for hours on street corners offering free bible courses and what they perceive as salvation.

 

Entirely different. 

What the JWs, and in my estimation ALL religious groups offer, is their version of a fiction, for which there is no proof whatever.

What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.

 

[DJ360 6,721]

29 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

What is their motive? What is the motive of anyone who wants to influence someone other than themselves? I suspect it's far less altruistic than they claim.

 

What would be my motive if I ran into a building shouting 'Fire', if there actually was a fire.  Would I be trying to warn occupants, to leave, or just 'proselytising'?

 

Over the last few years I have watched numerous  Democratic countries turn to the political right, some still just about Democratic, such as the US, Italy, India and Hungary, some already clearly authoritarian and dictatorial, like Russia, and some teetering on the edge, like Turkey.  This country, under this Govt., is showing clear signs of the same process. If we both live long enough, and if my 'bit', can help avert disaster, you may one day thank me for what you describe as Proselytising. (Rather stretching the definition or proselytising in my view, but whatever.

 

Is the following Proselytising, or warning?

 

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

 

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

43 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.

Such evangelical zeal! I'm sure you'll be rewarded, at some time, in some way. If it makes you happy and keeps you from robbing banks, where's the harm?

[DJ360 6,721]

Gosh!  That's very nearly an endorsement!

 

What keeps you from robbing banks?

[Jill Sparrow 10,304]

Money has no attraction for me. It's just another problem.

[DJ360 6,721]

Well we have that in common..

[letsavagoo 961]

20 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

Entirely different. 

What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.

 

Like the false one you offered that the national emergency test alarm had been contracted to Rishi Sunak’s wife’s company.

Also your quote ‘If we both live long enough, and if my 'bit', can help avert disaster, you may one day thank me for what you describe as Proselytising. (Ratherstretching the definition or proselytising in my view, but whatever’.  
No offence but you flatter yourself way too much if you seriously think you will make the slightest difference. You won’t.

[DJ360 6,721]

On 5/31/2023 at 9:06 AM, letsavagoo said:

Like the false one you offered that the national emergency test alarm had been contracted to Rishi Sunak’s wife’s company.

 

That was incorrect and I held my hands up. So why drag it up? Are you also busy taking the UK National Press to task for the lies they propagated about Corbyn?

 

On 5/31/2023 at 9:06 AM, letsavagoo said:

Also your quote ‘

If we both live long enough, and if my 'bit', can help avert disaster, you may one day thank me for what you describe as Proselytising. (Ratherstretching the definition or proselytising in my view, but whatever’.  
No offence but you flatter yourself way too much if you seriously think you will make the slightest difference. You won’t.

 

Whether I make a difference or not, is my problem.  Let me worry about that.

[DJ360 6,721]

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

DJ.

I think the current government are terrible. It matters not to me whether they are qualitatively different from previous administrations as I have no faith whatsoever in them or in the opposition. 

 

Well it's comforting that you find them 'terrible', but you still can't bring yourself to admit, or at least consider, that they are qualitatively different to earlier Tories.  Why is that?

It was interesting to listen to Chris Patten, an 'Old Style' Tory, on last night's Question Time.  Especially his assertion that he was 'a member of the Conservative Party when there was one.'

 

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

 As I have mentioned previously the expenses scandal totally shattered my faith and trust in MP’s, that’s all of them whatever their flavour. I see they still claim fixed penalty charges under travel expenses and false claims are still on the menu.

 

No offence, as you say, but I see that as a convenient 'cop out'.

Of course the 'scandal' was an extremely unedifying episode. We are agreed on that. And yes, it seems that a few are still 'trying it on'. There are about as many MPs  (600+) as there were pupils at High Pavement when I was there.  Were all of those pupils scrupulously honest?  I doubt it. In any group situation we are dealing with human nature and human weakness. It's an unfortunate fact of life, and sadly 'The Rules' don't always work to keep things perfect. That said, the scandal affected all parties pretty much equally, so as a means of determining the respective 'honesty' of parties, it's not helpful and can, in effect be discounted, just as you would cancel equal terms either side of a mathematical equation.

If you really are as disenchanted with all politicians as you say you are, then why are you even engaging in this discussion?  Do you still (intend to) vote? 

I suspect that a close examination of 650 vehicles on any road, would reveal a significant number of banned, unlicensed and uninsured drivers, as well as unsafe, untaxed, unregistered vehicles etc. Has that destroyed your faith in all drivers?

 

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

I think Labour under Blair were terrible and Starmer is hopeless seeking pathetic gimmicks to curry favour his latest being he’ll stop oil drilling in the North Sea.

 

I can't comment on your view of the Blair Govt. unless you quote specifics. As I recall, among other things Blair increased spending on Health and Education, saw through the Good Friday Agreement, introduced the Minimum Wage and much more.  I didn't like his 'Presidential Style', but until Iraq, I liked most of his achievements. Iraq was of course widely seen as a disaster, mostly because of the 'WMD' allegations which turned out to be false. And of course Blair did not attack Public Services and economic growth was steady throughout his tenure.

As I've said numerous times already, I'm no fan of Starmer, but I would take a Labour victory, or pretty much any coalition to rid us of the cancer of the current 'Conservatives'.

 

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

Quoting the Guardian with its left wing bias doesn’t convince me of anything and how you claim with the current lack of action by the Tory’s, allowing illegal immigration on an industrial scale and doing absolutely zero about it makes them Racist, Xenophobic, Neo Nazis etc is a mystery. Quite the opposite I’d suggest.

 

Sorry to disappoint, but the main reason I often quote the Guardian is because it isn't hidden behind a 'paywall' like the Times et.al.

It's also not owned by foreign interests,  and it is in my view simply more honest and liberal in it's editorial policy. It certainly doesn't slavishly follow a 'left-wing' narrative. If you see that as 'Left Wing Bias', I'm afraid that is your problem.

From Wikipedia:

'Guardian is a British daily newspaper. It was founded in 1821 as The Manchester Guardian, and changed its name in 1959.^[5] Along with its sister papers, The Observer and The Guardian Weekly, The Guardian is part of the Guardian Media Group, owned by the Scott Trust.^[6] The trust was created in 1936 to "secure the financial and editorial independence of The Guardian in perpetuity and to safeguard the journalistic freedom and liberal values of The Guardian free from commercial or political interference".^[7] The trust was converted into a limited company in 2008, with a constitution written so as to maintain for The Guardian the same protections as were built into the structure of the Scott Trust by its creators. Profits are reinvested in its journalism rather than distributed to owners or shareholders.^[7] It is considered a newspaper of record in the UK.^[8][9]'

 

Would you prefer I quoted foreign owned rags such as the execrable, lying Daily Mail, Sun etc?

 

Your analysis of Tory immigration policy is way off the mark. They have, quite simply failed to come up with working policies and systems. That failure is simply the Home Office version of the failures in ALL other Govt. Depts, which are the result of chronic underfunding, cuts, failed Neo Con ideology and ministerial incompetence.

 

Via Brexit, they have broken the working  two-way system of legal Freedom of Movement, with disastrous impact on recruitment in Health, Social Care, Horticultural and other industries, while simultaneously failing to compensate by increasing UK based worker training.

 

As for illegal immigration.  It is now a policy shambles, but also a convenient 'Dog Whistle' for the likes of Braverman to use to whip up support for the Tories from the Xenophobic and Racist elements in the UK electorate.

Simply quoting Tory Immigration Policy failure does not negate their clear far right economic and social policy ideology.

 

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

We’ll never agree on protests but the current trend of throwing powders, paint and locking on is unacceptable. If the law needs changing to stop it them I am sure the vast majority of the public won’t see it as an ideal opportunity for Govt. to 'trial' it's new anti-protest laws but as common sense and not as you do as denying the democratic right to protest.

 

You really should read my posts more carefully. I have already stated that I agree that 'locking on' in its new forms is unacceptable, though in its earlier forms, such as those employed by the Suffragettes, it was effective and pretty harmless. And of course the use af any sort of 'missile', including paints powders or liquids, is of course Common Assault..already illegal.  My point was, and remains, that the Metropolitan Police and members of other forces in attendance at the Coronation, over-stepped the mark, by arresting both entirely innocent people, and those whose protest was lawful, on flimsy pretexts, which they subsequently admitted were wrong.  You will not change my view on that.

 

On 5/28/2023 at 9:04 PM, letsavagoo said:

 I saw the coverage recently of the police detaining a driver who had pushed a protester out the road in order to move and earn a living. Seems like the police were actively protecting the protesters doesn’t it. How does that fit in with the anti protest theory. I know it shouldn’t but when you go on about ‘democratic right to protest’ it makes me think of the old sit com Citizen Smith’

I wonder how you would react if just stop oil had prevented Mrs DJ getting to hospital and I’m sorry to hear of Mrs Cols pains and hope she feels better soon. 

 

The Driver? Common assault. As I say. Illegal. If a person is not protesting within the Law, then it is the job of the Police, not the general public, to act... or do you advocate 'vigilante' actions and people 'taking the Law into their own hands?

Eitherway, as far as I know, 'Just Stop Oil' have stated that they are re-considering the effectiveness of their 'locking on' policy.

 

If I'm 'Citizen Smith', then you are Martin Bryce, in 'Ever Decreasing Circles'.

 

And of course I'd have been angry if I was delayed in an emergency, which Mrs Col's trip to hospital was not. Thanks for your concern.  I've posted on her progress in 'How's Your Day'.

[letsavagoo 961]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

That was incorrect and I held my hands up. So why drag it up?

I had let it drop as we all make mistakes. However when you posted that

’What I'm offering is verifiable, factual, but obscure info, which people can choose to factor into their decisions once they are made aware of it.’

Then clearly that’s not always the case.

Wikipedia on the Guardian.

• The Guardian – mainstream newspaper which has consistently supported centre-left politics, either reflected by the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats.

I will make no comment on the other matters you raise. 

[DJ360 6,721]

On 6/2/2023 at 4:45 PM, letsavagoo said:

Then clearly that’s not always the case.

 

Or.. 'then clearly, in one case I posted something which was incorrect and ackowledged the fact.'

 

On 6/2/2023 at 4:45 PM, letsavagoo said:

The Guardian – mainstream newspaper which has consistently supported centre-left politics, either reflected by the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats.

 

Are you sure that quote is from Wiki?  I've extensively searched articles on the Guardian in Wiki and cannot find that exact phrase. I found it here though..

 

https://bowlfunctions.com/qa/is-the-guardian-a-tory-or-labour-paper.html

 

Difficult to 'get behind' the origins and motivations of 'Bowl Functions', but it looks rather US oriented.

And if you continue with that article it quotes the Guardian as the 'most trusted' mainstream paper in the UK.

 

Switch back to the Wiki article and you'll find yourself reading how the Guardian has allowed contributions from Gove and other Tories. Hardly the sign of a raging Marxist entity.

You might also want to look at historic issues such as Slavery, Nazism, etc..and see which side 'Centre-Left, and 'Centre Right' papers landed....

 

But mostly, if you just focus on the phrase 'centre-left', which you quoted, not I, you'll get:

 

"Centre-left politics describes the range of left-wing political ideologies that lean closer to the political centre. Major ideologies of the centre-left include social democracy, social liberalism, progressivism, and green politics. Ideas commonly supported by the centre-left include welfare capitalism, social justice, environmentalism, liberal internationalism, and multiculturalism. Economically, the centre-left supports a mixed economy in a democratic capitalist system, often including economic interventionism, progressive taxation, and the right to unionize. Centre-left politics are contrasted with far-left politics that reject capitalism or advocate revolution."

 

Pretty much an encapsulation of how I've always described my Politics. Do you reject all of the above ideologies?

 

I don't deny that the Guardian is broadly a 'centre-left' newspaper. To me, it demonstrates that if you remove a Newspaper from the financial control of either a wealthy individual, of the Murdoch/Barclay Bros. ilk, or a Political cadre, then you will broadly see the correct analysis and prescription.

 

 

On 6/2/2023 at 4:45 PM, letsavagoo said:

I will make no comment on the other matters you raise.

 

Err.. whilst I acknowledge your right not to comment..with the exception of the matter of the 'Qualitative change', in Tory ranks, which you still seem determined to neither confirm nor deny, I was responding to other issues which you raised. Specifically:

-The 'Expenses Scandal'

-Labour under Blair

-The Guardian

-Tory immigration policy

-Protests

 

 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

Meanwhile.. I'll just leave this here for anyone who is interested...

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Tory+drift+to+the+right&t=newext&atb=v356-1&ia=web

 

• https://www.theguardian.com › politics › 2022 › aug › 01 › righter-than-right-tory-conservative-hardline-drift-public-opinion

  Righter than right: Tories' hardline drift may lose the public

  1 Aug 2022"The centre of gravity in the Tory party has shifted to the right quite considerably," he said. "It's no surprise that whether candidates privately support the Rwanda policy or not, they take a...
• Images for Tory drift to the right

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  More Images
• https://www.theguardian.com › lifeandstyle › 2022 › jan › 23 › readers-reply-why-are-tories-pulled-to-the-right-by-breakaway-parties-but-labour-is-pulled-to-the-centre

  Readers reply: why are Tories pulled to the right by breakaway parties ...

  23 Jan 2022The Tories are being pulled to the extreme right and Labour are moving to the centre-right to take up the space vacated by the Tories as the "moderate" wing of the Tory party has...
• https://www.theguardian.com › commentisfree › 2019 › jul › 23 › hard-right-captured-tory-party-boris-johnson-victory-proves-it

  The hard right has captured my old party - The Guardian

  23 Jul 2019The hustings also revealed the real Conservative party and its drift to the right. It wasn't simply that the members don't look like today's UK - 71% male and 97% white - it was more about...
• https://www.thetimes.co.uk › article › tories-in-chaos-one-nation-conservatives-unite-against-drift-to-right-cf7t7q57k

  Tories in chaos: One Nation Conservatives unite against drift to right

  Moderate Conservative MPs are preparing to try to stop Theresa May's successor dragging the party to the right amid signs that Michael Gove could attract support from "one nation" Tories. A ...
• https://www.thelondoneconomic.com › opinion › britains-slide-into-authoritarianism-how-the-tories-are-building-a-one-party-state-259854

  Britain's slide into authoritarianism: How the Tories are building a ...

  The state broadcaster and regulator are falling under right-wing control. Combined, these elements set an anti-democratic precedent. But where did it begin? Origins Britain has always had...
• https://www.independent.co.uk › voices › rishi-sunak-labour-conservative-party-b2343257.html

  The Tory party as we know it will be extinct in two years

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[letsavagoo 961]

On 6/4/2023 at 10:00 AM, DJ360 said:

Err.. whilst I acknowledge your right not to comment..with the exception of the matter of the 'Qualitative change', in Tory ranks, which you still seem determined to neither confirm nor deny, I was responding to other issues which you raised. Specifically:

-The 'Expenses Scandal'

-Labour under Blair

-The Guardian

-Tory immigration policy

-Protests

I wasn’t necessarily inviting comment from you rather just making a statement. If you feel you have to comment so be it.

 

On 6/2/2023 at 11:35 AM, DJ360 said:

You really should read my posts more carefully. I have already stated that I agree that 'locking on' in its new forms is unacceptable, though in its earlier forms, such as those employed by the Suffragettes, it was effective and pretty harmless.

Again I was not contradicting you. I was reinstating where I stand on protests and had read your post carefully.

Whether the Tory’s have Qualitatively changed recently is immaterial to me as if they have or haven’t as I have lost faith in the political system overall. In an ideal world there be a better alternative but for me, Labour are not that. Far, far from it. 
 

On 6/4/2023 at 10:00 AM, DJ360 said:

Or.. 'then clearly, in one case I posted something which was incorrect and ackowledged the fact.'

That posting was one I just so happened to know was wrong so mentioned it. I have no intention of fact checking all you quotes and comments so I have no idea and frankly little interest in their accuracy. So it may be you aren’t always accurate. How do we know. Because you say so isn’t enough. 

 

I don’t particularly enjoy this political discussion so will not comment frequently.

[DJ360 6,721]

OK.

[DJ360 6,721]

So.. a huge Political bombshell.. Nadine Dorries has quit...  Well that's a blow for all who believe in sound government by competent people, .  Boris Johnson's most dedicated Groupie has quit and we'll never again get to see her gazing adoringly at him as he blusters and blathers at the Dispatch Box.  Oh.. sorry.. that had already stopped...

 

In other news, it seems that Mr Johnson has also quit, after claiming that he's subject to a 'Witch Hunt' and insisting that he has never lied about anything.. ever... even when he said things which were untrue..

 

 Still, Mr Johnson has named most of his Cronies in his 'Honours List'..except, curiously, Ms. Dorries.

 

And whilst there are huge elements of comedy to all of this Tory 'infighting', I for one don't think it is at all funny that the likes of Priti Patel and Jacob Rees-Mogg, much less a bunch of faceless 'advisers', get to profit from association with a proven liar, bully and incompetent.

What does the Team think?

[DJ360 6,721]

 

[Cliff Ton 10,458]

It seems that although Nadine Dorries drooled over Boris, the feeling wasn't mutual. So she's thrown her toys out of the pram as well.

 

 

[DJ360 6,721]

I couldn't put Johnson's petulant but also devious resignation tactic better than this, from another site.

 

'It's his usual pathetic deflection. The Priviledges Committee report will be damning, more importantly the COVID enquiry may take forever but the segmented approach will mean UK's preparation and handling of the first wave will report earlier and Johnson will not come out well.

The austerity run down of preparation for pandemics, the missed Cobra meetings, the shaking hands with COVID patients and consideration he gave to being injected with it on TV, the crucial nine days delay in lockdown during which infected cases went from something like 190,000 to over 1.2M which gave the UK among the very worst early death rates.

That's without the care home scandal, the PPE corruption and more delayed lockdowns plus the absurd "eat out to help out" superspreading.

Plenty to remind people of exactly how effectively Boris "he's a larf" Johnson led the UK's response.'

[Rob.L 1,088]

And lest it be forgotten, while Johnson directed his bile at the chair of it, the Privileges Committee consists of four Conservative MPs, two Labour, and one SNP. So members of his own party held the majority.

[DJ360 6,721]

 

So, once again, I am being accused of 'dragging politics into it', when what I'm actually doing is reacting to political statements made by others, which, in this instance either unthinkingly, or deliberately, play into the racist elements of the whole migration debate.

There is a genuine debate to be had about immigration policy. Basing it on ethnicity is racist. It is THAT simple.

 

I cannot sit back and let prejudice pass without comment, whether it concerns race or any other social group.

 

Tarring a whole group with the same brush is prejudice. Simple as.

And as an aside, I have a black Son in Law who fought in Afghanistan for this country.

 

So, concerning the Nottingham stabbings, what we have is an appalling series of events leaving three dead, one critically injured and others hurt. That is all quite bad enough.

 

But, because the suspect is black and an immigrant, we have seen comments about 'who is coming in on those boats', and so on.  I'm staggered that people making such comments do not see how their own prejudices, stereotyping etc., are not only clearly racist,. but also play into the ambitions of the far right. What they are doing, is effectively saying that ethnic minority immigrants and even the wider ethnic community are a danger.. just because they are black.

 

And of course it goes deeper, because those driving the racism aren't really bothered about race OR immigration.. they are simply employing the age old tactic of using 'populist' issues to create 'bogeymen' and recruit people to their side, so that they can gain , or retain, power.

 

On wider social media I've seen much worse.

 

And I'm not surprised that the Police were slow to release details of the suspect, because given the hysteria around migration,( which is very far from the biggest problem facing the UK at present) and the 'guilt by association' mentality of many in this country, they could have had a riot on their hands.  Even now, I would not be remotely surprised to read that some poor totally innocent black person had been attacked, or worse, in some sort of twisted 'revenge' act.

 

So.. let's take a little tour around the recent history of crime in the UK...

 

Mass Shootings.

Wallasey. Elle Edwards killed, four others injured. Suspects. White British.

Plymouth 2021. Six killed, 2 injured. Murderer. White British

Moss Side, Manchester. Shotgun used during Carribean Carnival. 18 injured, no fatalities. Suspects ? Likely Carribean.

County Durham 2012. 4 killed. Gunman, White British.

Cumbria 2010. 12 killed, 11 injured. Murderer White British.

Dunblane, Perthshire 1996. 17 dead 15 injured. Murderer.. White British.

Tyne and Wear 1989. One dead, 16 Injured. Murderer, White British.

Hungerford 1987. 16 killed 15 Injured. Murderer, White British.

There are others...

 

Serial Killers.

In no particular order.

Harold Shipman. Killed hundreds. White British.

Fred and Rose West. Killed lots. White British.

Peter Sutcliffe. Killed 13 or 14. White British.

Steven Akinmurele. Nigerian. Possibly 8 victims.

Levi Bellfield 3+, including Millie Dowler. White British

Ian Brady and Myra Hindley. Killed 5. White British.

John Christie. Killed 8+ and also showed up British 'justice' when Timothy Evans was hanged for his crimes.

Dale Cregan. Murdered 4, including 2 WPCs.. White British.

Many others...

 

I don't see many immigrants there...