Anything Political


Recommended Posts

DJ360

In all probability there is an element of truth in what you said but that is democracy for you.

I wonder what the outcome would have been if the UK had compulsory voting like we do in Australia.

Around 35% of the population did not even bother to vote.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 4.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Why do you feel the need to influence others? What is your motivation for so doing? Is it because you think you know better than they? Is it because it feeds your ego if and when you succeed?  Is it b

HSR: Col is given a 'free rein to spout his opinions' for exactly the reasons you are, only he does so with more civility.   Recently there have been a couple of attacks on the validity of t

True enough but none quite so 'in your face' or as blatant. To paraphrase Mone "I didn't lie to hide the the fact we're making £60 million and hiding it in a trust, it was to to protect my family

Austerity was what exactly?  I'll tell you.  It was all but indiscriminate cuts to services etc., and an excuse to try to flog off every last thing which was publicly owned.

 

Austerity is controversial I grant you. It is an attempt to get out of control government spending and national debt down. Look at the figures. From the early 90's to 2008 it was averaging just over 30%. It was reducing slightly during the period '96 - 01. Probably due to the inherited policies of Major and Co. 2001-07 and Labours deficit spend spend spend starts to take hold and debt starts to rise again.

 

2008 and the crash, not labours fault but though some agreed with Browns actions in dealing with the fallout, it was not in reality very effective. The national debt stood not at an average 30% when he was voted out but over 80%.

 

He left the UK with almost no gold reserves and millions of workers’ pensions in jeopardy.  Who punished whom?

 

To have continued the way we were going after Browns disastrous tenure at the treasury would be suicidal, the country would have been bankrupt in very short order. Labour, despite silly attempts to change the culture by becoming 'New' Labour, have never lost their basic belief in throwing good money after bad to solve problems.

 

Long live boom 'n' bust.

 

 

Brown spent millions rescuing the Banks, but that did not mean there was no money or credit left

 

There it is again, 'we had credit left'. The belief we can borrow and spend our way out of debt, rather like the financial institutional thinking that contributed to the crash.

The UK has only a Aa2 (3rd level) credit rating now, down from the top tier AAA we had before both parties started making huge spending plans.

 

 

Mick Phillpot from Derby, who was a genuine self proclaimed scrounger and finally murderer of six of his children.  The DM stated 'There Are Thousands Like Him Out There'.  A sickening misuse of press power. 

 

One swallow does not a summer make and one scurrilous headline is not a reflection of government policy.

 

 

Blair was of course wrong on WMD.. I have no idea what he was about..how much he was in thrall to the US etc., and how much he was really conned by his own 'advisers'.  

 

I would not belittle Blair by suggesting he is/was so gullible he was taken in by his advisors. As far as I know he is intelligent and as well as parliamentary advisors he had the full resources of GCHG, MI6, the Foreign Office, the Military and doubtless others.

 

He knew damn well he was not being truthful with the electorate or Parliament. I don't suppose we will ever know why or what grand scheme went pear shaped.

 

I would not compare the losses, bad as they were, suffered by those you claim had the indignity of a fit to work inquiry with the losses suffered by the wives, partners and children (who did not volunteer), of those soldiers who came back damaged - or not at all.

 

 

We had NHS crying out for more money for years and that only to cover 'normal' UK health issues.  Tories were year on year keeping NHS budgets below inflation. 

 

Is somewhat different to your earlier assertion that 'All previous Govt.s even under Thatcher maintained funding for the NHS at or around inflation'. 

 

I say again the NHS will, under its present chaotic management, always be 'crying out' for more money.

 

You are confusing the vulnerability of Black and Asian people in general.

 

I'm not confusing anything of the sort. In order to make a point you said "almost all NHS staff who have died from Covid were Black or Asian". I merely asked for evidence. 

 

Even the Govt. admit it was a 'mistake'. Apparently someone missed an email.

 

And a missed e-mail is an arrogant knee jerk is it?

 

 

The damage to the economy caused by Covid is likely to wreck the spending plans and give an open goal to Starmer and the yah boo merchants. 

So why would this be worse than the extreme and malicious opportunism of the Tories, who only managed to get elected as part of a Coalition after 2008? 

 

Not too sure how your answer ties in to my statement. What extreme and malicious opportunism are we talking about? What does a narrow victory or a coalition have to do with it?

 

 

Finally we agree on something.

Except that the forces of Capitalism will demand a 're-opening' of the economy before the virus is under control,

 

I agree but rather than the evil forces of Capitalism I tend to think the authorities will bend to the demands of a tired and increasingly frustrated people.

 

 

Re Janet Street Porter.

 It's sad when silly people make fatuous statements but that's the price we pay for free speech. I'm afraid there is no cure for stupid. 

 

I heard on the radio this morning some presenter giving a minister a hard time about David Icke and why YouTube allowed him to broadcast his nonsense. Again we must allow idiots to have their say even if we don't like it. If as some say he's putting people at risk then refute it, the authorities have far more channels than he does. If we do start to insist that unelected and unaccountable enterprises start censoring what we can see and hear we are on a very slippery slope indeed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies again to all.  Not for my views, which I proudly hold, but for getting a little 'fractious' last night.  Yesterday was not a good day for me.

 

Brew, I can understand your arguments about public spending etc.,although I don't  agree.  However, I still find it odd that you seem to completely dismiss any possibility that the Tories used the post 2008 crash environment and austerity, not just fot the 'noble' purpose of rescuing our economy.. but also for an orgy of unnecessary privatisations, cuts etc., for the wholesale demolition of the Tertiary Education Sector, for practically all post 16 Vocational training.  Also they quietly created a whole raft of 'privatised' replacements for a number of Govt agencies. Their argument presumably being their tired old 'Private is Always More Efficient' (It isn't) but their real motivation being simply to turn every last Govt funded function into a 'Business Opportunity.'  In any other context it would be called Asset Stripping.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Scrapping the Probation service was a classic example of privatisation for the sake of it. It was deemed an efficient and effective service, so why? There have been a lot of bad things happen since then.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The reduction (if in fact there is any), in Further Education is not easy to assess, nor are the reasons why. The UK was on par with Germany, France and Japan in % of population terms up until 2003, now we are almost at the bottom of the list. This despite the fact the number of 16-18 year-olds staying in full-time education has increased, with colleges becoming the ‘default’ institutions.

 

Sorry to say it Col but the drop actually started on your watch!   :rolleyes:

 

When we refer to tertiary education we tend to think of Cof FE but there are others to consider.

For at least the last 20 years there has been an increase in competition to provide FE services. 

Colleges are mostly competing with the new universities, the old polytechnics,  but local authorities  also make various provisions.

Vocational training has been forced to change as the result of changes in technology, a lot of the old skill sets are not required now. Funding for apprenticeships goes mainly to employers not colleges as before. So not demolished, changed with the times.

 

Labour and Tory both supported various schemes of competitive tendering. Both meddled with the funding, both are responsible and  have nothing to brag about in that area. It would help if government, in this case Tory, stopped interfering and quit moving the goal posts.

Whilst Labour seems to have no cohesive policy other than banning private schools and demanding 25 billion pounds. Again the old 'lets throw money at the problem'.

 

Privatisation of essential services is wrong, no argument there.

 

There were however state owned enterprises that need to change. Prior to privatisation state owned industries were bloated, badly managed, inefficient and a huge drain on the public purse.

After privatisation productivity roughly doubled in Steel, Coal, Ports and BT in fact the mere threat of privatisation made British Steel radically change its ways and become more productive. After privatisation BA expanded rapidly and became one the worlds premier airlines. For the consumer the benefits came in reduced prices.

Not all privatisation was bad

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am with you Brew on education when o' when is UK going to get it right?  I started at the begin of NVQs the Hairdressing industry was the pilot scheme for them, the Industry and the lead body got together to produce a qualification that would be open to all.  The industry to say what they wanted an how to do it correctly and the Lead body to give the Qualification. (e x City n Guilds) It was mostly aimed at slow leaner's (not being unkind) but before NVQ everything was based on exam result's which you always took at the end of term. Quite a few students had a job remembering works taught at the beginning of the year, and the NVQs were based on course work, Q/A practical assessment  but there was also an exam at the end of the NVQ 1-2-3  to me, it was a good system as we had Units and elements  ex UNIT 1  Reception Elements 1 Greeting a client E 2 How to book an appointment E 3 How you should answer the phone and so on and so on Units were from 1-12 with about 4/6 elements in them. The NVQ which i taught covered every part of hairdressing you could name, now when I visit the salon myself I always ask the junior how she is getting on, I was taken back when she told me that now you can just do the Unit you want to, so if you don't want to cover Perming you can opt out of this Unit. So what will happen in the future I don't think that we will have any all round hair stylist.  Must say I worked for BHC which took all ages which i thought was a good idea as some times you do not know what you would like as a job till you are older, now I also worked for NHTA  which we only took students up to 18 but they also have to have salon placement. NHTA was a private company and they were paid on how many passed and obtained there NVQ. you were under lots more pressure to get the student a qualification. Then we had to change our teaching method as we were ask to check spelling and grammar in the students portfolio's. As I told my boss just before I handed in my notice yes I have my 730 teacher training certificate but this doe's not mean that i can teach English. The collages now have gone in with the Uni's I think this was a bad bad move.  To me both have a different kind of Education.  I now rest my case.   

Link to post
Share on other sites

More fatuous questions from the new Labour supremo. 

 

Quote:-

Newly-elected Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer urged the government to be transparent over its lockdown strategy and to clarify how long Mr Johnson will be "out of action".

 

Why not ask a useful question like,  how long a is a piece of string, we've all wanted to know that for ages...

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

What can be more transparent than, "stay at home and don't go out" until the experts say differently!!. And no doubt, Boris will give him a call when he feels better!! Just to keep him in the loop.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, that's a good idea.

Lets publish the Lockdown strategy, so that minority of the general population who still don't get it know exactly what's planned and can find every way to try to beat it.

 

It must be just a coincidence that lots of motorcycle owners have realise they're low on milk and bread and suddenly felt the need to travel to Matlock, on this sunny weekend, past my Sons house to buy some.

 

I just hope Derbshire Police are sat at the bottom of the hill turning them around.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brew said:

 

 

Why not ask a useful question like,  how long a is a piece of string, we've all wanted to know that for ages...

 

I'm sure the "Oracle" will be along soon to tell us !

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rather late to the party here.  I'll reply to several points tomorrow.

 

Who's this 'Oracle'?

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Brew said:

Sorry to say it Col but the drop actually started on your watch!   

 

Mary is correct that the UK has been making a prize b**** up of FE/vocational training since at least the early 70s. And yes, I'd blame Govts of all stripes for not having the balls to compel 'industry and commerce' to take responsibility for training and educating their own future workforces.

 

Too tired to argue now but it was actually Blunkett who did away with almost all vocational YTS type training just as it was maturing into something worthwhile. and instead forced kids into colleges where many really didn't want to be. Still.. at least they got EMA.  No more... There were also serious anomalies in the NVQ system which meant many left with a level 2 qualification which was all but useless to them.

 

After 2008 the Tories began dismantling the non advanced FE system, which is why for example Knowsley College's biggest site has gone and my daughter now lives on what was the playing field for Worsley College.  There are countless other examples.

 

The Tories are still claiming something like 400000 'apprenticeships' which are just nominal places which mean bugger all until some employer fills them.

 

Thatch did away with Industry Training Boards and nothing has really replaced them since.  It's a mess.

On 4/10/2020 at 2:11 PM, Brew said:

Vocational training has been forced to change as the result of changes in technology, a lot of the old skill sets are not required now. Funding for apprenticeships goes mainly to employers not colleges as before. So not demolished, changed with the times.

 

This is just incorrect.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm getting rather fed up with people being fed up with people asking the Govt. questions.  I really cannot understand how people can NOT see that the present bunch are in disarray, stalling, deflecting and basically bloody hopeless.

 

Where is Patel?  What is Cummings up to?  Frankly I don't much care but where is PPE, Where is testing?

 

The cynicism and cheek of Hancock when he said that 'We can't be sure that NHS Workers' who died of CV caught it at work'. REALLY???

 

And then 'NHS workers must be more economical in their use if PPE'.,  He's been promising more PPE for WEEKS.. he's been saying much the same about testing.  It has become apparrent that he is stalling and lying.  He says there's enough PPE, the staff on the front line say there isn't.  Who would you believe?

 

It's also now becoming apparent that this lot ignored the disastrous outcomes of a pandemic control study/exercise in 2016.

 

Yes, we all make mistakes, but most of us don't make a career out of it.

 

The other aspect of this whole Govt approach to CV is that it is exactly the same pattern that the Tories exhibit over everything. 

 

Quick to dish out tax breaks and privatisation 'goodies' to their fellow travellers.  Quick to punish those they see as 'feckless'.  Yet somehow very slow to right wrongs.

 

So. Austerity was quick, Benefit cuts were quick, in fact many cuts were quick. Privatisations were pushed through quickly.. almost as if they were panicking and had to get it all done before anyone noticed.:rolleyes:

 

Yet.. when it comes to the housing crisis.. (remember that?  It's still there....) they were 'Looking into it' AKA. Doing nothing.

Adult Social Care.  "We have plans" AKA doing nothing.

Blah Blah.. " We have begun a thorough review" AKA doing nothing.

Blah..  "Investigations continue'.  AKA doing nothing.

 

Can people really not see the pattern?

 

Grenfell.  3 years on and almost nothing resolved.  People still living in potential death traps. Tenants/purchasers expected to pay for replacement of cladding fraudulently fitted. Govt. clearly protecting the crooks.

Windrush.  The same.

 

I don't care what fundamental political philosophies people hold.  Just because your instinct is Conservative, does not mean that you are obliged to excuse the crassness and incompetence of the Johnson Govt.  I'm accused often enough of excusing everything Labour.. though I don't.

 

I'm sure this is not what Johnson and his bunch of misfits signed up for.  They were full of puffed up 'Get Brexit Done' bull**** and really just playing about with one issue.

 

But, sadly, they have been landed with something real.  To 'Get Covid-19 Done'

 

They are failing and they either need to step up, form a true Govt. of National Unity, or step aside.

 

People cannot wait any longer for effective action.

 

They are not coping and the result of their failure is  death for far too many.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/10/2020 at 4:45 PM, Brew said:

More fatuous questions from the new Labour supremo. 

 

Quote:-

Newly-elected Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer urged the government to be transparent over its lockdown strategy and to clarify how long Mr Johnson will be "out of action".

 

Why not ask a useful question like,  how long a is a piece of string, we've all wanted to know that for ages...

 

 

It is not unreasonable to ask the Govt. about its EXIT strategy from lockdown.  This is not about asking for timings, it is about asking what the plan is when the time is right.  Current evidence to me shows Govt has NO exit strategy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

At some point we have to reverse all the measures and the exit strategy is just a plan of what, where and when.  I am sure they have a draft plan but it's not ready for sharing yet.  Obviously it can't be all at once so we need the science to help shape the plan.  That comes from analysis of infection and death rates (have we peaked out yet? - we should know soon) and testing (have you got it and have you had it? - still a few weeks or months away from mass testing).  Vaccines are too far away to be factored in just yet but if found in time, they will help us avoid a repeat pandemic next year.

Geographic/demographic data analysis will come into play - densely populated areas may have to wait longer for relaxed rules.

Aside of the science, there's the art of managing expectation.  The currently small percentage of the public breaching law/guidance will undoubtedly increase as the lockdown persists, that's why they left it as long as possible before clamping down and why they are hesitant to clamp down further.  Telling us that we each have a part to play is classic change management.  They have to keep us in a state of optimism that the end is in sight (even if it isn't) so they will drip feed any good news while reinforcing the 'stay at home' message.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree, regarding the stupid questions the broadcasters ask,.Peston the pessimistic, from the mainstream is probably the worst!

In the current climate.Why ask a hypothetical question?

 

You get the daily report on the sad situation, 

Any questions?

Silly question's nobody has an answer to..

 

A fake positive would be more constructive...maybe they are reserved for the politicians!

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DJ360 said:
On ‎4‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 2:11 PM, Brew said:

Funding for apprenticeships goes mainly to employers not colleges as before. So not demolished, changed with the times.

 

This is just incorrect.

 

Perhaps when you are not so tired you'll explain why. 

The Education and Skills Funding Agency will pay the employer, or a provider of their choice up to 95% of the cost of training. For small businesses that meet certain criteria not only do they pay 100% there is additional support on top of that.

 

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

I'm getting rather fed up with people being fed up with people asking the Govt. questions.

 

We agreed there is a need for a vigorous opposition to curb the excesses of government. but, as had been pointed out the opposition can virtually do and say anything and claim Parliamentary privilege. As a voter I think I have a right to challenge and to question that which is done supposedly for my benefit - no matter who by.

 

My dig at Starmer is not that he asked questions, it's his use of his position for self-aggrandizement. Note I do not call him stupid, he is a barrister and well versed in the art of argument and counter-argument. His questions are carefully crafted to gain most column inches and air time by generating disparaging follow up statements.

Had the question been sensible  we wouldn't be talking about it now. If he had asked about the lack of PPE he would have been told that they were desperately trying source supplies, the same as the rest of the world, and there would be little or no traction or point scoring.

Asking a question he knows nobody can answer scores points with the faithful because he can then infer the government is incompetent. It's the same with asking about an exit strategy. The pandemic is a rapidly changing and dynamic situation and any exit strategy made today would probably be out of date and useless tomorrow.

 

10 hours ago, DJ360 said:

It's also now becoming apparent that this lot ignored the disastrous outcomes of a pandemic control study/exercise in 2016

 

I took part in one of those when there was a fear of the IRA attacking the National  Grid. It was a farce, a total waste of time. With nothing to go on most was guess work and all of it was wrong.

 

10 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Can people really not see the pattern?

 

Actually I suspect most can. I also suspect they know it applies to both parties, it's not just a Tory thing.

 

I voted both for and against Blair, ditto Thatcher. If you judge me Conservative so be it. Johnson is not high on my list of people I admire but in this instance I think he has done as well as any other leader.

 

10 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Grenfell.  3 years on and almost nothing resolved

 

Grenfell is undergoing an enquiry as you well know so I will not prejudge. The final report, when it arrives, will be rejected by those who do not agree with the findings. There will be cries of cover up, collusion etc.  and a call for a second and subsequent enquiries until a suitable scapegoat found.

 

I think when we look with hindsight we will see mistakes but in the here and now we are doing the best we can. I would also point out it's not just the government actions that we need to consider, the general public have a part to play and some are not playing by the rules.

 

The real test of the Blessed Boris will come when the pandemic has ended and the economy is on it's knees.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Clapped for the NHS 3 weeks ago, 2 weeks ago it was more subdued...

Last Thursday..it took off.

Two Moronic neighbours giving it large in full display of the whole Street..

 

Both have persisted in non essential travel and have visitors freely come and go...must be nice not to have a care in the world!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Engineer said:

At some point we have to reverse all the measures and the exit strategy is just a plan of what, where and when. 

et. seq.

 

Well exactly.. and if you can articulate it why can't our mighty leaders?  Admittedly they need to manage expectations etc., but they come across as chaotic, inconsistent and clueless, which is helping nobody and is IME far more likely to lead to people ignoring/breaking the lockdown than if it was clearly explained that there will be a managed lifting at some point.

Govt were very strong on 'doing the right thing, at the right time', but that seems to have disappeared from the playlist.

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, HSR said:

Agree, regarding the stupid questions the broadcasters ask,.Peston the pessimistic, from the mainstream is probably the worst!

In the current climate.Why ask a hypothetical question?

 

I'm not a fan of journos, but I noted with some bemusement that Kuenssberg, who was the darling of the Right when she was slagging off Corbyn and even editing video of him to put words into his mouth., is now getting it in the neck from the Right for having the temerity to criticise Johnson and his gang.

 

Boot.. Other foot etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On that major political point we'll have to agree to differ... :P

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did any body see Bill Gates on TV this morning?

 

He warned us 5 years ago that something  like this Coronavirus; 19 would come along and instead of spending money on weapons  nuclear ect  We should be putting money into resesrch.

 

I also hope that if we get though to the other side,  NHS  nurses, doctor's and other staff  will get a wage rise and paid decent wagers for the job that they do.

  • Like 5
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, mary1947 said:

Did any body see Bill Gates on TV this morning?

 

He warned us 5 years ago that something  like this Coronavirus; 19 would come along and instead of spending money on weapons  nuclear ect  We should be putting money into resesrch.

 

I also hope that if we get though to the other side,  NHS  nurses, doctor's and other staff  will get a wage rise and paid decent wagers for the job that they do.

 

Pay less to footballers and more to research and nursing staff.

  • Like 5
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Cliff Ton changed the title to Anything Political

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...