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Although we dont live in the UK and it may be a different point of view. Here over the years employment or the lack of it has been very different to that in UK. My husband has worked since he was

I used to be called Victor Meldrew at work so I have been mostly avoiding this thread until now but here are a few things that really pee me off:   # Drivers who don't acknowledge you when y

T'was the night before Christmas and Santa's a wreck... How to live in a world that's politically correct? His workers no longer would answer to "Elves," "Vertically Challenged" they were call

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No pride, self respect, or taking responsibility. It's the take, take, take scenario constantly ! They expect the rest of society to fund them, and virtually wipe their backsides for them.

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It refers to a much earlier post Ann. One of the failings of lack of post numbers I'm afraid.

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On of Jill's from sometime yesterday I believe.

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Frankly, I'm quite sickened by what I am reading here.

 

Of course there are poor parents and the resulting poorly behaved kids, but is that really new?  I seriously doubt it... It's been the case for as long as I recall...

 

Call me a 'snowflake' if you like, but ...

 

I spent the last seven or eight years of my working life doing Career Guidance in a school for kids with moderate learning difficulties.  (  Yes, even kids with issues  have ambitions, dreams etc.) There was no 'typical' child, or parent in that school.  After 20 + years in the job, this was the first 'special' school I'd worked in and it was a steep learning curve... believe me.

You could break the youngsters down to maybe four broad types.

1.  Learning impaired due to sensory impairment.  These were mostly either partially sighted, or hearing impaired. Often otherwise perectly normal kids, but just held back by their disability.  Usually very polite, lovely people, with very supportive parents.

 

2. Learning impaired due to some congenital cognitive dysfunction.  I don't pretend to understand all of these.. but seeing a child slowly 'processing' a simple question,  before responding.. often with a barely appropriate answer.. is actually quite humbling.  It makes you grateful that you don't have those difficulties. Might be Cerebral Palsy, The child might be somewhere on the 'Autistic Spectrum', ranging from the 'high functioning' tuypes who are often diagnosed with 'Aspergers', to the more severely Autistic kids who struggle to communicate with, or make sense of, the world.

 

3. Assorted 'syndromes'.  I had one youngster who had 'Valproate Syndrome', caused by his Mum being prescribed Sodium Valproate for her severe epilepsy.while carrying him.  She didn't know.  Valproate Syndrome was a big story a few months back.  I was confronted with it a decade or more ago.  Lovely lad.  Very bright in many ways, but had real difficulty coping with any sort of stress, group situations  or conflict.  He also had characteristic physical appearance common to sufferers.  https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/5447/fetal-valproate-syndrome

 

'Marfan Syndrome'. https://www.marfan.org/about/signs

 

There were others but it's a few years back and my memory fades, but I do often wonder how certain kids got on.

 

4. Just plain bad behaviour.  Yes.. some kids have no idea how to behave.  They have been brought up by inadequate parents in inadequate environments.  Trust me, I've seen it all.  Kids whose parents were hopeless drug addicts or alcoholics.  Kids who were placed into care for their own safety.  Often these kids' parents loved them deeply, but for whatever reason, couldn't cope.  There was, I say again.. no 'typical' case.

 

So.. you can keep kidding yourself that certain syndromes are 'made up'.  And you can keep kidding yourself that this 'never happened years ago', and you can keep kidding yourself that what you see is 'typical'.. 

 

For crying out loud!!  Such kids have always existed except that years ago they would be labelled as 'backward', or 'Cretins', or 'Idiots', or 'Imbeciles'.  Now, most of us know better.

 

Seriously.. makes me wonder who the real imbeciles are..

 

 

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Col, I'm not disputing what you are saying, and you certainly have a right to your opinion.

 

Honestly though, I do not remember any kid during my school years who exhibited the extreme behaviour symptoms exhibited by the kid who was cited here in the Post report.  Some were not the best behaved and often seemed to get disciplined.  Some ended up in the A stream others in the C stream, but most seemed to scrape through and go on to some kind of job.  Often the trades for the A stream lads.  We shall never resolve such issues on a forum such as this.

 

From the limited background info given on this kid.  It seems to reflect much on the parents.  What is a kid doing playing video games six hours a day and then busting the tv when he doesn't Win?

 

Folks here, who are mostly of our generation should hardly be classified as "imbeciles" because they don't subscribe to many of the techniques for trying to deal with these problems today.

 

I'm not seeing tremendous success with today's methods and those who prescribe mind altering drugs to try to change behaviour often seem to produce ticking time bombs just waiting for the right trigger to go beserk.

 

This is probably the last I will say on this topic as it is as inflammable as politics.  Let's get back to the best turntable.  ;)

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13 minutes ago, loppylugs said:

Col, I'm not disputing what you are saying, and you certainly have a right to your opinion.

 

Honestly though, I do not remember any kid during my school years who exhibited the extreme behaviour symptoms exhibited by the kid who was cited here in the Post report.  Some were not the best behaved and often seemed to get disciplined.  Some ended up in the A stream others in the C stream, but most seemed to scrape through and go on to some kind of job.  Often the trades for the A stream lads.  We shall never resolve such issues on a forum such as this.

 

From the limited background info given on this kid.  It seems to reflect much on the parents.  What is a kid doing playing video games six hours a day and then busting the tv when he doesn't Win?

 

Folks here, who are mostly of our generation should hardly be classified as "imbeciles" because they don't subscribe to many of the techniques for trying to deal with these problems today.

 

I'm not seeing tremendous success with today's methods and those who prescribe mind altering drugs to try to change behaviour often seem to produce ticking time bombs just waiting for the right trigger to go beserk.

 

This is probably the last I will say on this topic as it is as inflammable as politics.  Let's get back to the best turntable.  ;)

 

 

Dave, with me, it's not so much the individual case.  There will alays be extremes.

What bugs me is the willlingness of many here to use the case to just lump everything into some stereotypical view of modern society. so that one extreme case 'allows' them to take the high ground and condemn anyone who doesn't think, or act, the way they do.  An Alien reading this site would be forced to conclude that a small number of  'respectable and responsible' citizens are besieged by hordes of Chavs, Benefit Scroungers, Out of Control Kids, Drug Addicts, Criminals, Snowflakes and 'Pinko Lefties'. We all know.. if we are honest.. that this is not true. It is an exaggeration.

 

Would anyone tell those same Aliens that the country is run by a bunch of Spivs who just love to 'wind up' and exploit these cracks in ordinary society, for their own enrichment?

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I am not qualified to comment on 'syndromes' or the effect of physical/mental impairment but  part of my uni studies covered sociology and physcology. One of the required readings was a book simply titled 'Sociology' (Anthony giddens), in particular the study of nature vs nurture.

Empirical research involving the broad spectrum of school aged children came up with these conclusions, I have shortened the list somewhat:

 

'Parents are the keys to intellectual development for almost all children in the care and education they provide and arrange. Many research studies underscore the links between parental involvement and young children's intelligence.

• By the time a child turns two, many of the intellectual foundations will have been laid to support a lifetime of learning.

• A child's intelligence is shaped and influenced by his cumulative experiences over time.

• Nurturing has a profound effect on intelligence. The nature-versus-nurture debate is wrongly framed — biology matters, and so does experience'.

 

Suffice to say I read enough to convince me 'nuture' is the dominant feature in a childs development. To me the major factor in nurturing is parenting.

To quote a popular aphorism - 'there are no bad children, just bad parents'.  An over simplification of a very complex subject but there is a large grain of truth in it.

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I missed my last line. 

The vast majority behave as children should and develop into reasonable adults. Sadly some don't and start a self perpetuating cycle of virtual self destruction.

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Quite agree, Brew. I have never had children, from choice, because it is a huge commitment and I have no qualifications which fit me to be a parent. I don't have the answers to life's fundamental questions, therefore how can I guide someone else? Of course, I've been criticised for not having children by people who have the absurd idea that by not doing so I have wasted my life and not fulfilled my existence as a female! Complete and utter tosh! I might add that those who made such observations usually had an unruly tribe with whom they struggled to cope. They are more than welcome to my share!

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DJ360 I don't want to get into an argument over this topic, I understand where you are coming from and after reading most of your posts I have great respect for your views.

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

'respectable and responsible' citizens are besieged by hordes of Chavs, Benefit Scroungers, Out of Control Kids, Drug Addicts, Criminals, Snowflakes and 'Pinko Lefties'. We all know.. if we are honest.. that this is not true. It is an exaggeration.

I wouldn't personally use the word besieged  but they are concerned enough to be wary if they have to venture out of an evening, talking to many friends in Hucknall they feel the same . Not all children are the same , most are great. But when you see and hear of the antics which happen on a regular basis you do become worried, and when experts keep finding excuses for their behaviour you lose some of the respect you have for these experts. You see some young children grow up and then become the criminal class , all through their childhood they have had excuse after excuse made for them why its not their fault so they carry on, it dose the child no good in the long term, I believe they need extra guidance at the start of the problems.

After having experience of H&S act since 1974 I have seen so called experts use it to enhance their own image and create a monster , which undermines the meaning of the act and brings it in to disrepute and many other meaningful things have gone this way.

As for Pinko lefties I hold my hands up if wanting a better society where people can exists together in peace and harmony I all for it.

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After totting up the overnight scores. I can inform you that it's currently a high scoring draw between the realists, and the idealists !

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So long as it remains a reasoned arguament and not descend into a quarrel - it's good to talk...  

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Far too many parents have realised the financial gain by parenting kids with so called syndromes.

Nearly £800 per month tax free & not means tested benefit is a big temptation to a lot of parents.

As my favourite scouse Ricky Tomlinson would say. Syndrome .My Arse  !

 

Notwithstanding the fact that there are some kids with issues, problem is some parents have cottoned on to a nice little earner & have no qualms at all by having their kids labelled as having mental health problems to gain benefits. It does happen.

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8 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Frankly, I'm quite sickened by what I am reading here.

 

Of course there are poor parents and the resulting poorly behaved kids, but is that really new?  I seriously doubt it... It's been the case for as long as I recall...

 

Call me a 'snowflake' if you like, but ...

 

I spent the last seven or eight years of my working life doing Career Guidance in a school for kids with moderate learning difficulties.  (  Yes, even kids with issues  have ambitions, dreams etc.) There was no 'typical' child, or parent in that school.  After 20 + years in the job, this was the first 'special' school I'd worked in and it was a steep learning curve... believe me.

You could break the youngsters down to maybe four broad types.

1.  Learning impaired due to sensory impairment.  These were mostly either partially sighted, or hearing impaired. Often otherwise perectly normal kids, but just held back by their disability.  Usually very polite, lovely people, with very supportive parents.

 

2. Learning impaired due to some congenital cognitive dysfunction.  I don't pretend to understand all of these.. but seeing a child slowly 'processing' a simple question,  before responding.. often with a barely appropriate answer.. is actually quite humbling.  It makes you grateful that you don't have those difficulties. Might be Cerebral Palsy, The child might be somewhere on the 'Autistic Spectrum', ranging from the 'high functioning' tuypes who are often diagnosed with 'Aspergers', to the more severely Autistic kids who struggle to communicate with, or make sense of, the world.

 

3. Assorted 'syndromes'.  I had one youngster who had 'Valproate Syndrome', caused by his Mum being prescribed Sodium Valproate for her severe epilepsy.while carrying him.  She didn't know.  Valproate Syndrome was a big story a few months back.  I was confronted with it a decade or more ago.  Lovely lad.  Very bright in many ways, but had real difficulty coping with any sort of stress, group situations  or conflict.  He also had characteristic physical appearance common to sufferers.  https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/5447/fetal-valproate-syndrome

 

'Marfan Syndrome'. https://www.marfan.org/about/signs

 

There were others but it's a few years back and my memory fades, but I do often wonder how certain kids got on.

 

4. Just plain bad behaviour.  Yes.. some kids have no idea how to behave.  They have been brought up by inadequate parents in inadequate environments.  Trust me, I've seen it all.  Kids whose parents were hopeless drug addicts or alcoholics.  Kids who were placed into care for their own safety.  Often these kids' parents loved them deeply, but for whatever reason, couldn't cope.  There was, I say again.. no 'typical' case.

 

So.. you can keep kidding yourself that certain syndromes are 'made up'.  And you can keep kidding yourself that this 'never happened years ago', and you can keep kidding yourself that what you see is 'typical'.. 

 

For crying out loud!!  Such kids have always existed except that years ago they would be labelled as 'backward', or 'Cretins', or 'Idiots', or 'Imbeciles'.  Now, most of us know better.

 

Seriously.. makes me wonder who the real imbeciles are..

 

 

Thank you for adding this balanced view. Young people are growing up in tough times. Generational unemployment, no jobs, limited educational opportunities. They are young humans, tomorrow’s adults.

 

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6 hours ago, Brew said:

 

 

I am not qualified to comment on 'syndromes' or the effect of physical/mental impairment but  part of my uni studies covered sociology and physcology. One of the required readings was a book simply titled 'Sociology' (Anthony giddens), in particular the study of nature vs nurture.

Empirical research involving the broad spectrum of school aged children came up with these conclusions, I have shortened the list somewhat:

 

'Parents are the keys to intellectual development for almost all children in the care and education they provide and arrange. Many research studies underscore the links between parental involvement and young children's intelligence.

• By the time a child turns two, many of the intellectual foundations will have been laid to support a lifetime of learning.

• A child's intelligence is shaped and influenced by his cumulative experiences over time.

• Nurturing has a profound effect on intelligence. The nature-versus-nurture debate is wrongly framed — biology matters, and so does experience'.

 

Suffice to say I read enough to convince me 'nuture' is the dominant feature in a childs development. To me the major factor in nurturing is parenting.

To quote a popular aphorism - 'there are no bad children, just bad parents'.  An over simplification of a very complex subject but there is a large grain of truth in it.

 

I can't disagree with any of that Brew. It is self evident that parenting is the major determinant of both behaviour and educational attainment.  'Intelligence' is maybe a bit more difficult to pin down.  I always thought that Intelligence ( as opposed to learning) was fixed, at birth.. but it seems that research shows that even those with learning impairments improve not only their knowledge, but also their intelligence, through good teaching.  I certainly agree that a combination of nature and experience (or 'nurture' ) are self evidently the major determinant.  For what it's worth I studied some of Gidden's books too, in fact I still have a copy of 'Capitalism and Modern Social Theory' (1971)  knocking about somewhere.

 

What this little debate comes down to , from my perspective at least, is my usual gripe....  Too many people convinced that the answers to complex problems are simple. ( Call them the 'Hang 'Em and Flog 'Em Brigade' if you like.)... and too willing to lump them all together under one heading.  Also too many people eager to judge others on their appearance, rather than any actual evidence.  I have a little story about that which I'll keep for later, but in the meantime I remain mystified as to how ytou tell what benefits people are on (if any) by the cost of their phone or trainers...

 

 I think I illustrated above that there are many different typres of youngster who present with personality and behaviours which are outside 'the norm', whatever that is.  There are also many causes. 

 

Bad parenting is just one cause of bad behaviour by young people.  Even here, we can make the distinction between 'inadequate' parents, who try, but fail.. and just plain 'bad' parents, who couldn't care less. I'm not looking to excuse bad behaviour.. but, if we don't tackle the causes, we'll never break the cycle.  This is what Sure Start was all about and it was pretty successful as I understand it.. until of course our lovely Govt. pulled the funding.

 

Finally, something I forgot to put in my post about the Special School.  I was amazed at the consistency and thoroughness of approach shown by the teachers in that school.  Whatever the child's issues.. every example of indiscipline, emotional outburst, bullying, bad langage, bad manners, etc., etc. was firmly but quietly challenged by staff.  There were no exceptions.  In other words, the approach was that whatever problems the kids faced, there was no excuse for anti-social or unruly behaviour sand that mutual respect was required. This approach clearly worked, because despite everything, the school was a lovely calm place to work.  Most kids seemed to enjoy the fact that I told them from the off that I didn't require them to call me 'Sir'.  I told them that I would also respond to Colin, but not to 'Oi You'..etc.  Many of them would greet me in the corridors or on the yard with a cheerful 'High five' and a 'Hiya Colin'.  It was very rewarding.

 

Col

 

 

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2 hours ago, catfan said:

Far too many parents have realised the financial gain by parenting kids with so called syndromes.

Nearly £800 per month tax free & not means tested benefit is a big temptation to a lot of parents.

As my favourite scouse Ricky Tomlinson would say. Syndrome .My Arse  !

 

Notwithstanding the fact that there are some kids with issues, problem is some parents have cottoned on to a nice little earner & have no qualms at all by having their kids labelled as having mental health problems to gain benefits. It does happen.

 

Again Mike.  How many parents?  Where do you get £800 from?  It would be helpful if you could tell us.

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£800 ! I've heard of a girl in Long Eaton, with two children  who in the past wouldn't work more than 16 hours a week because she was getting well over £1,000 PM in benefits. 

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£250 a week.  Rent, food, bills, two kids... etc. and of course the cost of childcare.  Hardly a fortune. 

 

The '16 hour' rule wasn't her invention, but it did create what is called the 'benefits trap'.  Frankly, if I was in her position and couldn't get a job which would bring in more than benefits + the cost of Childcare,  I'd stay on benefits for the sake of my kids.

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We'll never resolve this problem on here, as its far too complex. Also, as the majority of us on here are well over 60, and totally entrenched in our views, there's minimal chance of anyone changing their minds.

It's mainly down to parenting, as the blinkered working class ideals of the post war period were eroded by more wealth and affluence.

However, the yobs of the 50's produced yobs, who in turn produced further yobs, and so it goes on. 

Of course, there's bad education, peer influence, born plain evil etc. Then there are cuts by various governments over the last twenty odd years which haven't helped. Ignoring mental defects, it's basically down to good parenting.

Certainly more overall discipline wouldn't go amiss.

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I never implied that the 16 hour rule was her invention, but it's the benefit trap that is to blame. 

I admire her for working, but there's an abundance of youngsters who don't.

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The young of today have it rough? Perhaps they do. What about our parents who lived through the 20s and 30s, years of depression, unemployment, no social care, no NHS, no job seekers' allowance. When they reached 18, they were conscripted to fight in a war from which many didn't return and others were scarred for life.

 

Then they faced years of rationing, food, clothes and everything else. When they married, they couldn't afford mortgages or rent so many lived with their parents for years in cramped, unfit conditions. They had fathers who had lived through even worse during 1914-18.

 

The young folk today may have it tough but they aren't the first...they probably won't be the last either!

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