How Much Are Your Old Records Worth?

[Guest]

There was a feature on BBC 4 the other week,a recording studio man spoke about how much sound and instruments were lost on I pads and phones etc..

[Chulla 4,946]

I was mooching around town last week and went in a record shop in Broad Marsh, and also in HMV and was very surprised to see that both had a fair amount of 12-inch LPs. Pricey, through, ranging from £15 to $19.

[loppylugs 8,429]

Were thy new or used?

[Chulla 4,946]

They were all new-release albums, no second-hand discs.

[loppylugs 8,429]

Used to be about two pounds each at the end of the sixties and that seemed like a lot of money back then.

[DJ360 6,729]

Did a massive post on amps and stuff the other night only to go and lose it. I'm also still trying to find out precisely what is 'That Image Extension', that I'm not allowed to use on this board. And Mrs Col, who is a freelance translator, has been hogging the PC for about 48 hours..

So anyway. I'm back now. Some mention of valve amps above. Many people still love some of the old classic British designs such as the QUAD II, assorted Radfords, Leak TL 12 'point one', , Stereo 20, Rogers 'Cadet' etc. A few years back some chap found a couple of 'Beam Echo' monoblocs and used them to set up remanufacturing them. We used a couple of LEAK TL 50 mono amps to run 'dual mono' on the original kit for the 'Magic Roundabout Disc Show' at the 360 Club and on the mobile circuit. 'Hi Fi' might be stretching a point in that case, but we certainly got complimented on our sound quality.

American companies such as Audio Research never stopped making valve amps. Similar with Japanese companies such as Audio Note, who make the eye wateringly expensive 'Ongaku' 27 watt single ended triode silver wired amp. (Last time I looked, around £40k)

Tim De Paravicini's 'Esoteric Audio Research' (EAR), Audio Innovations, and Papworth Audio Technology, were the main UK flyers of the valve flag from the 80s to the noughties, although others were there too. Glenn Croft producing his own hand built designs and Tom Fleming (in Calverton, Notts) producing the beautiful 'Art Audio' range.

I was UK distributor for Papworth for a while and used Papworth amps myself until very recently, when I fancied a change.

Back with more later.

Col

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

40 grand is a lot of money for an amplifier, there are plenty of good audio amp designs in tube manufacturers manuals, tried and tested. Problem with tube designs is you need an output transformer to match the tube impedance with the speakers. Transformers add distortion, small in well designed amps, but still there.

Solid state amplifier modules available to today don't need any device to match the impedance of the output, BUT, are very sensitive to an impedance change, like the unknowing paralleling speakers halving the impedance the module sees. Thus allowing the smoke to escape as we say in electronics...LOL

Much the same in power RF stages in transmitters, the output devices, usually MOSFETS these days have output impedance of 50 ohms, so feed lines are designed for 50 ohms as are antennas.

Old tube RF amplifiers had to have impedance matching networks, "tank circuits" to match the feed line and antennas, much like the output transformer on audio amps.

[DJ360 6,729]

Well 'Ayeup', I'm no electronics wizz, but I'd add the following.

It is true that transformers can 'saturate', if either badly designed, or too small for the job. That said, in my understanding, valves (at least in the relevant part of their operating range) are more 'linear', than solid state devices. It is also entirely possible to produce 'output transformerless' valve amps. Something of a speciality of Italian company 'Graaf' and also done here by Croft. Never heard one though. There's also no doubt in my mind and from my experience that different valve amp designs and configurations sound and act differently.

The problem is that people will insist in going on about the 'warm' sound of valves, which is frankly rubbish. I think this is a throwback to people's memories of old AM valve radios, probably in most cases lacking a decent aerial and also suffering from whole rafts of leaky caps, tired valves and all manner of other out of spec components.

I've heard modern valve (and SS) amps that sound 'warm', but they aren't to my taste. Similarly for me much of Tim's EAR stuff sounds hard and 'clanky' to these ears, though many disagree. It does seem that single ended triode amps using big, old and expensive valves such as 300B etc., can have stunningly liquid, 'open' and 'real' soundng midranges, but they seem to fall down on bass power and 'slam', even when partnered with very sensitive speakers.

It's possible to find all kinds of sounds out there. Tim De Paravicini claims he can get exactly the same sound from either valve or solid state and it wouldn't surprise me if he could. He's an acknowledged genius. (Though some might argue a flawed one.)

There's an old saying. 'All engineering is compromise'. In other words, there is always a trade off between cost, effectiveness, and many other variables, before a final product is developed. It is possible to make 'no compromise' products, but they inevitably only suit for a narrow range of function. Extreme example would be Noble's 'Thrust' speed record breakers. Very very fast, but no great shakes on fuel consumption, handling etc., and no doubt a bit of a pig to park down at ASDA.

In audio you find people with hugely varied ideas of what sounds 'right'. Some want extreme detail, others want thumping bass and yet others want holographic stereo 'imaging'. I tend to focus on tonal accuracy, good stereo focus and the ability to 'sort out', for example, fast piano playing by Ashkhenazy, or a number of voices in a group. Kit which can't do this doesn't get into my system. I also have limited space, so am forced to use relatively small speakers, which by definition tend to be relatively inefficient. ( around 84dB/1Watt, but conversely, no punishing impedance dips across the frequency range)

For 18 years I used a pair of these: Papworth Audio Technology M100 mono amp. Hand built in Cambridgeshire. Solid stainless steel case. 18Kg each. 100 wpc RMS. EL34 push pull design, with, as you can see, fairly substantial transformers. Quite capable of launching my speakers through the ceiling had I not a steady hand on the gain control.. but very nice and no problems whatever in 18 years.

I recently switched to one of these, because I wanted a change and am also looking to simplify/downsize my system. LFD Zero Mk v., Hand built in the UK by Dr Richard Bews, who along with designer Dr Malcolm Hawksford, takes a rather different view of how amps should be made.

Clue/teaser. LFD stands for 'Low Fuzzy Distortion'.

How I chose it is a bit of a cautionary tale. I was looking for an integrated amp up to £3k, capable of driving my speakers properly. The LFD actually came in at £3100, but I could very easily have made an expensive mistake.

How I avoided that is for later.

Col.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

Speaker design complete with good speaker enclosures are the key to good audio, I recall Wayne Green had a series of articles in 73 magazine on speakers and speaker enclosures about 20 years back, he was not only a ham radio operator, but also an audiophile. He concentrated on the end feature, speakers. A friend of his designed a pair of cabinets and used twin cone speakers, by all accounts they produced the sounds they were after, of course with a high end audio amp.

BTW, solid state devices can and do produce linear output, they are just as good as thermionic tubes. Circuit design is the key, good circuit design.

When I was in Australia I built a push pull output audio amplifier on an Australian electronic engineers design using two pair of 2N3055 power transistors on the output, I still have the amplifier. Was rated at 25W per channel, or with the torroid power transformer 35W per channel. My hearing was so much better those days and to me, the sound was incredible.

The old 3055's are still available and have so many uses!! I have a very expensive power supply in the shop, set at 13.5v at 80 amps, has many 3055 transistors as the pass transistors.

You could really liken them to a good quality triode tube..

[DJ360 6,729]

Speaker design is obviously important, but so is the source component and the amplification.

Throughout the 80-90s, the predominant philosophy was that of 'source first', as pushed by Linn Products and Naim Audio, plus a few others.

The basic idea was that there is no point in having a great amp and speakers if all they are going to do is amplify crap. It's a sound idea, but it got to the point where people were using very expensive record players and CD players, via multiple/active amp set ups to drive tiny speakers.

Source First still applies as far as I'm concerned. No point taking the output from a cheap turntable and pushing it through several £k worth of amps and speakers. You'll just get better reproduction of the wow/flutter/mechanical breakthrough/poor tracking etc.

But.. most people these days are using digital sources. I most emphatically do not support the view that digital audio is perfect, but above the appalling sound of the lower bit rate options on MP3, many people are pretty happy with CD or digital downloads. Also, many people are into digital streaming. This has shifted emphasis back towards, for example, free standing DACs ( Digital to Analogue Converters). It's true that these can be simply a chip bought for a few coppers, but the quality of the chips, and their implementation, make a difference. Standalone DACs do sound different, though I don't think they sound as obviously different as say, speakers and amps.

Until a few months back, I was using a TEAC P-30 CD Transport.

The thing was massive, weighed a ton and was built of great slabs of aluminium. Cost new was around £3k 20 years ago. I bought it for very much less second hand and sold it at no loss as part of my downsizing strategy. It read the CD and outputted a digital datastream via a lead which needed to go through a DAC in order to become music. But believe me, it produced stunning sound through a semi-pro Benchmark DAC 1.

I'm temporarily using my old Rotel RCD-965 BX CD player as a 'transport' via its digital out to the same DAC. Close, but not as good as the TEAC. No matter because the plan is to rip all of my CD's into a server and use a 'streamer' to feed them through my amp etc. And anyway, I think most would struggle to find fault with the sound I'm getting now.

Once I settle on the right streamer. (I'm presently very impressed with what I'm reading about the latest Cambridge Audio effort), I'' see whther I have any further use for the Rotel and the Benchmark. If not they'll go and fund a bit more music.

Col

[loppylugs 8,429]

Don't misunderstand me I'm not knocking high end stuff. In the end it seems like what really matters is what the listener enjoys. My set up is definitely not high end by some of todays standards. Thorens TD 150/ Shure v15 III. Pushed into a bog standard Panasonic receiver/amp. Feeding into a couple of Wharfedale super Linton speakers. (Purchased from Pete's on Arkwright street). Much travelled and now about forty years old. Some hi-fi purists might sniff at that, but with my hearing the way it is it still sounds good to me. Which brings up another point. Listeners are at diiferent ages and what one hears another may miss. One says sounds great, must be because it is a valve amp. The other can't hear any difference so in the end it becomes subjective. Just thinking out loud here. Lol.

[DJ360 6,729]

I said I'd explain how I avoided an expensive mistake when choosing my new LFD amp.

I had a budget of £3k and I knew that I didn't want anything from NAIM Audio, LINN products , Cyrus, or Rega. All British kit and all OK, but they all have their own 'signature', which they impose on everything you play.

Someone suggested LFD and I arranged to go and hear the LFD Zero Mk v at a local dealer's. I know them well and they know me. The 'proper' hi-fi fraternity is relatively small. I requested a demonstration using a small relatively insensitive speaker similar to my home set up. I didn't want to take my speakers along as they are very carefully positioned and several parts are held together with blu tak. (I'll put a pic up later ..... worth a thousand words...)

The LFD didn't impress. Some flashes of brilliance, but it sounded 'off'. Knowing my previous track record with valves, they next let me hear the Sonneteer Orton amp. £500 cheaper and very pretty. It also comes with a fancy solid alloy remote, plenty of flashing lights and a choice of colour for the anodised front panel. It's solid stae, but often compared to a valve sound.

It sounded much more alive and I was impressed. But, I've been around long enough to know that the only way to know how an amp drives a speaker is to try them together.

So, I arranged to borrow up an LFD Zero Mk V and a Sonneteer Orton from the dealer. For good measure I also borrowed another British made amp, a Sugden A21a, from another dealer.

Then went home and got them all powered up for a mini 'bake off', accompanied by my mate Dave from over the street.

For 'dem' purposes I used my 20+ year old Rotel RCD 965-BX CD via my Benchmark DAC1 into my Rogers Studio 3/AB3 speakers. (Around 85dB )

I'd heard the Sonneteer seemingly 'blow away' the LFD at a well known Warrington dealer's the week before. Also heard the Sugden at another nearby dealer's a couple of days later.

First up was the Sugden. A solid state pure Class A design. Nicely made and finished. (£1500 ish) Very sweet sounding. Rather valve like in some ways. Lovely mid rather let down by a somewhat softened HF and a rather indistinct bass. Went plenty loud enough, but I felt tended to run (further) out of control at higher volumes. And I can confirm that like all Class A kit it runs very hot!

Next, the LFD. (£3000) Not the prettiest of the bunch. Basic paint finish. Three knobs on front and nothing to say what they each were for.. No remote. Inputs defying usual L-R conventions and no clue whatever which speaker outlet was which. This had just not worked at all at a dealer dem. A couple of flashes of brilliance, revealing things I'd not previously heard on a couple of recordings, but otherwise sounding rather small and confined between the speakers.
Now it came alive! Started off a bit shrill/thin/bright. (Take your pick) but also very detailed with a big but spacious and 3 dimensional soundstage. As it warmed up it got its act more together and sounded less SS/more 'natural', but very authoritative. And all without losing that spacious 3 dimensionality.

Last up the Sonneteer Orton. (£2500) On the basis of the previous audition I'd pretty much made my mind up this was it. Beautifully made and finished. Very heavy. Lovely solid metal remote (with light!) and nice little blue LEDs to indicate input selected etc.

But.....

Massive soundstage. A rather soft 'valvey' sort of sound, but very two dimensional. Little depth. And despite the size of the soundstage, little by way of space and air. Just a great big spread of stuff with everything sort of fighting for its own space.

TBH, I was quite disappointed, having already nearly fallen in love with this amp and spent some time considering optional colours for the front panel etc.

But, went back to the LFD and after another hour or so of throwing everything from the The Who to Ashkenazy and Jenny Warnes to Stevie Ray at it, I was sold. I bought the LFD.

Both the Sonneteer and the Sugden are very good amps. But not with my speakers.

The LFD is now well run in in my system. It's not going anywhere!

Col

[DJ360 6,729]

Loppy, re # 86. I wasn't thinking anything of the sort. All of the kit you mention is good stuff so long as it is still working properly.

The returns from higher end kit are definitely of the 'diminishing' variety, but what I have now isn't much above the current 'mid-fi' level. You won't get much for under £1k in terms of amps these days. Same with speakers. You'll get decent enough 'budget' stuff, but not much more. Just simple price inflation.

Col

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

I'm at the point of it's all getting to sound the same to me, what with working near machines that dished out 110db of noise while it was cutting coal, yeah I did have hearing protection, but when they are lifting pillars off, hearing what props start to "tell" you is more important than hearing damage. Plus an ear infection took it's toll on my hearing...Oh well, that's old age for you..

I don't have much time to sit and play music these days either.

[nnsc 131]

I was mooching around town last week and went in a record shop in Broad Marsh, and also in HMV and was very surprised to see that both had a fair amount of 12-inch LPs. Pricey, through, ranging from £15 to $19.

Back to the thread - The shop in Broad Marsh Chulla is called 'Fopp'. I recently started to get my 4 year old grand daughter to pick any LP that is on sale in the shop. Obviously she doesn't know anything about the records but its good fun watching what she picks, unfortuneatly what she has picked so far hasn't set my musical taste buds on fire yet. The one below is the best so far!

I have quite a few records but as to their value I really do not know.

[DJ360 6,729]

Look here for results of record auctions. They'll only let you look at so many for free but it's useful.

http://www.popsike.com/

Buy a copy of this. Or see if your library has one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rare-Record-Price-Guide-Collector/dp/0956063985/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1445451566&sr=1-1&keywords=rare+record+price+guide+2016

And pay attention to the grading. Mint means mint and prices drop dramatically as condition drops. Groove wear, scratches, 'spindle marks' around rthe centre hole, marks, stickers, writing etc., on the label, all dramatically reduce value. Covers must be original, not torn etc. Even 'ring wear' caused by storage reduces value. All original inclusions, posters etc., should be present.

I have an original, near mint 'Sticky Fingers', with all inclusions and zipper on front. Only worth about £30.

I foolishly sold 'There You Go', by John Renbourn and Doris Henderson, way back in the 60s. It's now worth about £2-300 because it didn't sell many.

Col

Col

[Bubblewrap 3,815]

Loppy, re # 86. I wasn't thinking anything of the sort. All of the kit you mention is good stuff so long as it is still working properly.

The returns from higher end kit are definitely of the 'diminishing' variety, but what I have now isn't much above the current 'mid-fi' level. You won't get much for under £1k in terms of amps these days. Same with speakers. You'll get decent enough 'budget' stuff, but not much more. Just simple price inflation.

Col

Still using a Technics tower(nearly 30 years old) system with surround sound sound & graphic equaliser.

It still sound good to me & with 4 x 60 watt speakers can be quite loud (best way to play Sabbath or Purple)

[loppylugs 8,429]

Had to smile at the price of amps these days. Over three grand! I got my first house for that in 1966. Twenty pound a month for the rest of my life it seemed. You have sure taken a big hit from inflation. I suppose I should get used to it but I got married in 65 when twenty five pounds a week was a decent wage.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

Even vintage Marantz amps are fetching over a thousand bucks on Youtube!!

[DJ360 6,729]

Loppylugs re: #93 You should bear in mind that top end kit, properly looked after, can hold its value well and even appreciate. I bought a Linn tonearn s/h for £300 in 1993 and sold it this year for £800.

My £3k amp was paid for by selling kit like the arm above and my previous amps. You just have to be a bit canny. I'm not well off, but I do like my hi-fi and I use my head to get it.

My speakers were free. I won a competition in Hi-Fi World magazine. Actually, I won three competitions.....

Col

[barclaycon 569]

My dad was a Hi-Fi buff and he got a great system together in the early 60's

It was a Rogers amplifier and tuner together with a Goldring deck. He had a nice walnut cabinet made to house it in, which matched the Rogers speakers and looked like a classy piece of furniture.

The sound was superb. Even as a young kid I marvelled at how good it sounded.

He used to buy Hi-Fi magazines and liked to invest in the new stuff that they would recommend, but I don't think anything bettered his original system.

I'm sure that people would go crazy for that kind of thing now.

I'm told that in Japan they still pay enormous sums for old Quad amps and classic English-built equipment.

I've still got a Quad 303 which must be over 40 years old, I have replaced a few bits on it but it still sounds excellent.

Even when I plug an iPod into it !

[loppylugs 8,429]

DJ #95. I suppose I tend to think "depreciation". Just about everything else we buy is worth less than we paid the moment we leave the store with it, especially electronics it seems. I started out with a Rogers Cadet 3. About £36. I think a Garrard SP 25. Horrible thing, as soon as I put a half decent magnetic cartridge in it the rumble was unbelievable. Thats when I traded up to the Thorens. Whafedale speakers about £17 each. That was back in 66/67. Seemed like a lot of money then. Had a hard time persuading the wife. Lol. The cadet 3 finally expired. Although now I think I probably should have tried to fix it up.

Barclaycon. As I remember it the Quad 303 was a really nice amp. I drooled over one with some Quad electrostatic speakers. Never quite managed to justify it. Sounds like your dad had good taste.

[barclaycon 569]

Yes, he was into Big Bands (Glenn Miller, Tommy Dorsey etc.) but would buy things like the Beatles and Billy J.Kramer for us to listen to.

He relented after the Rolling Stones (19th. Nervous Breakdown if I remember rightly) and insisted that we had to buy our own records from then on, and didn't want us using the 'big' Hi-Fi.

Sadly, he eventually had to sell all of his stuff - including record collection because deafness took away the pleasure of listening.

Quad is a great company. Even now you can ring them up and get spares for a lot of their stuff, though things like transistors are no longer available for some of the older models.

The Quad 303 though only small, could pack a punch. The first time I went to Abbey Road to cut a record I noticed that they were using them to power the JBL monitors.

[Ayupmeducks 1,730]

Most transistors from way back to the 60's are still available, either as original manufacturers or equiv, things hard to find are CPU chips used for the control of amplifiers over 10 years old. All solid state stereo amplifier chips can be found with a little searching.

One thing with solid state components, they can take mechanical shock and are easier on storage space against vacuum tubes that get broken easily, take up lots of room, and can go "gassy" in storage, or "leak" over the years.

I've been surprised at what transistors can be found via internet sellers, I have some old transistors, but have hundreds of new vacuum tubes, some 1.5 volt low current filament types used in old portable radios, I also have a few old "acorn" tubes, spares for some ex military test equipment.

[barclaycon 569]

There are a lot of companies that hold stocks of old transistors - particularly in the far East and some companies have even gone to the trouble of re-manufacturing because of demand.

In the case of Quad, they used to use RCA transistors which ceased manufacture a long time ago, but they held quite hefty stocks.

All gone now, unfortunately.

Last time I fixed a 303 they offered an equivalent which worked but didn't look as hefty.

Military still have demand for older components. I read an article some years ago that they had developed a 'Fetron' - an FET solid-state equivalent of a valve which plugged straight in.

I'm suprised at the longevity and hardiness of a lot of valves.

A while back some Russian pilot defected to the West in the latest MIG which the Americans were delighted to strip down and examine. They were shocked to find that a lot of the electronics was valve.

Apparently the reason was that valves are not prone to nuclear electromagnetic pulse as much as solid state electronics.

Valve equipment is still valued by a lot of folk in the Hi-Fi world.

Anyway, back to old records (!)