Recommended Posts

There are many pro's and cons for both systems.  I was in a secondary school which was probably best for me.  I liked working with my hands and picked up the electrical trade fairly quickly.  In Canada I got a master's cert' in electrical which allowed me to start my own business.  I did o-k.

 That highlights another weakness in the 11/13 plus method.  We develop at different paces.  I got a theology degree in later life.  I was not ready for that in my teens and twenties.  

I don't know much about the comprehensive system but on the surface it seems like a really brilliant kid could be held back and bored by the need for classes to cater to the slowest as well as the bright.  There will never be true equality in this old world.  Some rise to the top quickly. Some, like me are plodders but we get there.  Some, for a variety of reasons never seem able to make it or don't even want to, it takes effort.

Great discussion, but I doubt we can resolve it to everyone's satisfaction.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 432
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Sorry TBI. I really don’t understand why the system was junked - unless it was to bring “ equality”, meaning mediocrity, to every kid. We are NOT equally academically gifted, and thank God. I went to

I think the difference between Grammar and secondary education was vast,,, Qualifications GCEs etc were hardly in our vocabulary at Padstow............i soon realised after a visit from the ''Youth Em

I for one loved school.  Grew up on a Council Estate, passed the 11+ and went to Grammar School.  Not a perfect school but always grateful for a good education.  Both my Mum and Dad passed to go to Gr

Posted Images

I for one loved school.  Grew up on a Council Estate, passed the 11+ and went to Grammar School.  Not a perfect school but always grateful for a good education.  Both my Mum and Dad passed to go to Grammar School in the early 30's, but neither set of parents could afford for them to go

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of this problem lies with petty jealousies, envy, and the desire to have something for little effort. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

This discussion has no end. Unless someone  gets two lives and goes through both systems any debate we have will be pure conjecture. Everyone I'm sure can hold up examples to reinforce their particular point of view but it really is a pointless exercise. He went to Grammar school, he went to Comp - it's  comparing apples with oranges

 

'He/she did that, achieved this,  because of a Grammar school education'... but there is no way to assess if they would have attained the same level, or lack of,  lifestyle/success/money if they left school at 14 and went to work down a mine. People are individuals, some sink, some swim...…..

  • Like 4
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Brilliant post, Brew.  Thankyou

9 hours ago, loppylugs said:

I don't know much about the comprehensive system but on the surface it seems like a really brilliant kid could be held back and bored by the need for classes to cater to the slowest as well as the bright.  There will never be true equality in this old world.  Some rise to the top quickly. Some, like me are plodders but we get there.  Some, for a variety of reasons never seem able to make it or don't even want to, it takes effort.

Great discussion, but I doubt we can resolve it to everyone's satisfaction.

 Having worked in a comprehensive school for nearly 30 years, I can speak with some authority...in the school I worked in,  Year 7 students were put into 'sets' according to ability for Maths almost immediately so the very brightest weren't held back and the less able could get more help.  Later, they were put into sets for Science as well for the same reason.  English lessons weren't actually 'setted' but less able students were put into separate classes where they were able to get more help.  This seemed to work quite well and students were moved into different sets as time went on if it seemed appropriate.  As they progressed through the school and had to choose their 'options' for years 10 and 11, then different choices were made naturally by the students according to their abilities.

The  practical subjects right from Year 7 were not 'setted' so all students were taught together for these.

We had lots of teaching assistants, which also helped...

A good comprehensive school can work well for all abilities!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It was the same at Mellish. There were A, B and C forms and in the first year this was based on 11+ results. I was in 1A obviously. :biggrin: It was possible to move up or down through the years dependant on annual exam results. In the fourth year it was split into Arts, Science and 4c. Likewise in the 5th year. 5C generally left after GCE results if they were not up to 6th form entry requirements The sixth form was divided into arts or science for two years depending on your A level preferences. Really brainy ones could stay on for a third year to take Scholarship Level. So even at grammar school pupils were streamed according to ability. Initially, contemplating dentistry, I took chemistry, physics and biology which proved to be useful in later life even though I initially studied accountancy! 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The only difference, Phil, was the RANGE of abilities within the school.  In the comprehensive school I worked in, there were students arriving from Primary School who weren't too sure about their 2x table and others who were already very capable of doing Algebra, geometry, fractions and decimals etc.  Some of  the less able had VERY limited reading skills (at the level of an average 5- 6 year old) and others were reading fluently and understanding all kinds of books.

But  it worked.... there were always a few children who probably didn't reach their potential, but there were others who achieved places at Oxford and Cambridge.  I think it worked because of good organisation and administration, and plenty of very capable support staff.   

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Throughout life, which in my case is four score years and ten I've met some incredibly stupid people who went to Cambridge etc, with degrees and some brilliant intellectuals who left school at 15 and never passed an examination ion there lives. It's all down to being able to observe and learn. The problem at the moment is that those in the decision making process are not there for their ability or experience even though they may know all the political dogma etc. and couldn't run a whelk stall. Don't know if this really helps the discussion but I'm glad I got it off my chest...back to the tablets.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I know I've always told my kids and grandkids that as long as they do the best they can at school or elsewhere, then I reckon that's good.  Also that it's so important to be a caring person.  

My mum wrote in my autograph book when I was about ten years old.... it's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice.    ..... a bit trite I know, but I've always found it to be helpful in my own life.

Does anyone on here still have an autograph book from their youth?  I don't suppose you can buy them anymore..

i agree with a lot you have written, gone to the moors.  Never heard that expression about running a whelk stall but I like it!

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On another thread I spotted an old reference to Dainty s Barber Shop on Highbury Vale and it brought back memories of an incident from 1965 ish when I was fifteen and a pupil at the Henry Mellish.

The latest Headmaster, a Mr Strutt, one day decided that singlehandedly he would attempt to hold back The Swinging Sixties and step one of his master plan would be to ensure that all pupils at his school would have military style haircuts.

All six hundred or so pupils were inspected from which he selected over a hundred to pay a visit to the Dainty Shop. The lucky hundred included myself, only slightly hirsute, and my best pal with his more flamboyant locks.

The mere mention of Jimmy Dainty struck terror into the hearts of cool kids, and it was rumoured that even the basin cut brigade avoided his services lest their hairstyles and pulling power be ruined for ever.

By mid morning break the first batches of victims were returning looking like sufferers of ringworm or escapees from a Russian Gulag."Sod that for a game of soldiers" said I, and my pal agreed with my irrevocable decision that we were not going.

When the carnage was finished, mid afternoon we were both sent for by the Headmaster, and on our way there decided that if he pushed the issue we would leave the school that afternoon never to return.

Since we were both bigger than him, and after five years at the Mellish quite capable of taking on King Kong, he was unable to come to any decision concerning punishment and so we just left him to it, barnets intact.

If he had been a pupil at the Mellish, rather than just a Headmaster, he would perhaps have developed a backbone and been able to control the situation. But I doubt it !!! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I can understand why you didn’t like the place if the head was that authoritarian. Geoff Houston his predecessor wasn’t a bad old stick really but then I never fell foul of him. I’m told that when he did a caning he took it on the run from the other side of his study. I do remember Jim Dainty’s barber shop and the sweet shop that sold cigarettes in ones (not to me I hasten to add - never smoked).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been at Mellish under both headmasters mentioned I saw both sides of the set up. In my opinion Strutt was not fit to lace Geoffrey Houstons shoes and was no good for the school at all. Being of an age at the time when impressions are soon formed I soon took a dislike to Strutt. I also got the impression he did not like me, especially the day I dumped him in the mud at the side of the rugby pitch just behind the biology lab. It had been a wet morning and there was some doubt if the pitch would be fit but it did and it was like mud wrestling. Strutt was glowering from the touch line as we weren't doing very well at a point where I got the chance to tackle their winger. Dave Impey had drilled into us the importance of taking opponents legs in a tackle so I went in low and hard, took the wingers legs from under him. As we hit the deck my legs skidded round in an arc and brought Strutt down as well. Needless to say it took a while to live it down but I never understood how I could have been blamed for it as much as I was pleased with myself.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I attended the Mellish between 1955 -1960 and thoroughly enjoyed my stay there Now I know there will be comments about "distance lending enchantment" and though I do admit to having my coloured  spectacles re-tinted, I still believe given the same opportunity I would attend again.I vaguely remember sitting the 11+ Exam but do not recall any body saying what potential effect a pass would have on my life.I certainly don`t remember deliberately changing my attitude towards my mates in my immediate locality after I started at the Mellish but relationships did alter over time. Possibly this was the result of wearing a uniform and using the word "actually" at every opportunity whether appropriate or not.I can honestly say I never saw any bullying at school either by older boys or prefects,teachers however were another matter, a topic I will come onto later.At some stage during my early days I was grabbed by the prefects stood on a chair and asked, not told, to sing a song, which I duly did Having already read Tom Browns School Days I,perhaps naively, saw the song incident as a way of maintaining traditions, rather than bullying.Maybe the incident gained me brownie points because I was never bothered by prefects again and to be perfectly honest never really aware of their presence let alone feeling threatened by them. I cannot remember what song I elected to sing but it certainly was not the Lincolnshire Poacher. Two incidents involving Mr Hutchinson and myself are imprinted on my memory for ever. The first was Mr Hutchinson asking me to bend over with my head a few inches away from the wall whereupon he ran across the room and kicked my backside causing my head to hit the wall. It would be classified as a double wammy these days. Cannot remember what I had done to displease him, probably noticed me breathing. The second incident involved Mr Hutchinson and a class mate of mine who I will call BT. BT had transgressed and was called to the front of the class. Words were exchanged and Mr Hutchinson concluded the discussion by hitting BT at the back of the head. BT started crying I am sure out of frustration more than pain. Mr Hutchinson looked round the room,saw me and said "Dennis your a friend of BT come here".As soon as I arrived and with no warning Mr Hutchinson hit me quite hard at the back of the head, turned towards BT and said "He`s not crying Why are you.I never saw either incident to be representative of the whole of the school rather the efforts of a weak man trying to maintain discipline.and certainly no other master who taught me had to resort to those methods..

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

In response to philmayfields comment about smoking, I did smoke and there was a shop on George St in Hucknall who would sell you a cigarette with two matches. Why two matches? I always assumed the rationale was either in case the first match went out prematurely or you put the cigarette out half way through and wanted to light the nub. The shop by the way was called Mrs Lees. I was a paper boy for Bullens whilst at the Mellish and if there were any undelivered papers left when I finished my round, Norman the Shop Manager would bribe me with 10 Park Drive to take them out as well. A problem solved and a smoker secured for the future.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I well remember May (or Mary) Bullen and her sidekick, Norman. Bullen read the eulogy at my aunt Dot's funeral which I thought to be very odd, her being a butch dyke and very, very different to aunt Dot. Never got my head around that.

 

Roy Allsebrooke's (opposite the Byron, next to the Coop grocers) used to sell Woodbines in paper sleeves of five.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Pig"" Hutchinson was a sadist and not fit to to be a teacher. His behaviour certainly would not have been tolerated these days and rightly so. I was fortunate to avoid him for most of my time at Mellish but could see his nasty side from a distance. From what I saw he was universally disliked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. He was extremely unpleasant. He was a senior RAF officer during the war and treated us like the erks under his command. He was in charge of the CCF which I would have joined had it not been for him. His mate, Frank Clark, maths, was equally unpleasant and was also an ex RAF officer. I knew a girl who lived next door to him and she said he treated his kids with military discipline. Some people could just not accept that the war finished in 1945.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No mention yet of the " Houses" at the Mellish. Did the School advise parents prior to the Term starting what colour tie to buy or were the houses allocated once the Term had started? I thought joining the CCF was obligatory unless you had a medical exemption? One lad in the class always looked a peculiar purple colour, which was evidence apparently, of a severe heart condition and was therefor excused. Does anybody who was at the Mellish in around  1957 remember a pupil committing suicide? The only reason I am recalling such a sad occasion is that I cannot remember how it was communicated. The surname of the lad involved was Anchor and sadly, because he wasn`t somebody I knocked about with,  don`t  remember his christian name but do, , when I shut my eyes , still recall his face. I don`t remember whether we were told in assembly or in class but remember a story circulating school that he worked in a Chemists at the weekends.One thing for sure,in stark contrast to today, it was never mentioned in school again and there was certainly no shrine erected.                                 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The houses at Mellish were advised to parents prior to entry so that appropriate coloured ties could be bought prior to starting. CCF was purely voluntary. The first year was in the basic section where they wore khaki and then they could choose whichever service they required for the following year. The lad with the purple looking colour was Michael Lander from Beeston. He did have a heart condition. I last saw him at the school closing ceremony a few years ago. He’d been given the appropriate surgery over the years and was fit and well and as pink as the rest of us! Mike was responsible for launching a two stage rocket which was built from materials from the physics and chemistry labs. Unfortunately the rocket exploded loudly at launch on the school field. Because of his heart condition he couldn’t be caned so he was suspended for a couple of weeks prior to Easter which allowed him to get on with his exam revision! Mike was in the year below me. You can find him on Facebook.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Geoffrey Dennis said:

Thanks Phil, Mike was in my Form as was Anchor. Good to know Mike was well. I knew he had aeronautical bent because he spent his free time drawing aeroplanes .Just out of interest, was there many people from the Grammar School epoch at the closing ceremony?

Indeed there were. Even celebrities like Neil Cossons, director of English Heritage. Being on a weekday it consisted  mainly of those who were retired. I met loads of old friends.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In response to philmayfield, houses certainly weren't allocated prior to start of the school year in my era. The first morning everyone turned up wearing a motley collection of ties which they continued to wear until an opportunity was provided to go shopping for the relevant house tie. In some instances this took longer than some masters were prepared to tolerate. It was the norm for younger siblings to go into the same house as an older sibling who also went to Mellish so they could get house ties pre start of school.

During my time at Mellish there was also a death which occured due to an incident during a rugby match. For the life of me I can't recall his name, only that he wasn't amongst the original 11+ intake-possibly came as the result of a house move. I recall it was a head injury and I believe he died in hospital.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...