DJ360
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Posts posted by DJ360
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Gerry was a very talented singer.
My current favourite song by Gerry and the Pacemakers:
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Some rather insensitive comments here I think.
I'm no fan of cookery progs, but if forced to choose, I'd choose the Hairy Bikers. They always came across as genuinely decent chaps as well as excellent cooks.
They also did no harm to the sometimes dubious reputation of 'bikers'.
R.I.P Dave.
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Back onto much more important Political issues.
I invite anyone interested, to have a look at the last few pages of a long running thread elsewhere, on the subject of:
'The Rise of the Far Right'
I'm not saying I agree with every word by any means, but I have been trying to raise awareness of what I see as a real threat to our Democracy, for years.
Look at the antics of Truss and her association with the criminal Steve Bannon.. just the tip of the iceberg. Add in Lee Anderson and all those like Mogg etc., who are 'presenters' on the appalling GB 'News' , which is constantly under investigation by Ofcom for wrongdoing, misinformation etc.
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/the-rise-of-the-far-right.216596/page-102
What does the team think?
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On 2/27/2024 at 10:05 PM, LizzieM said:
This discussion is really interesting. I passed the 11+ and went to Grammar School, although I was never in the A stream and left after ‘O’ Levels for the only reason that I wanted money in my pocket and didn’t fancy 2 more years of school and maybe 3 years of University. In fact at C-Le-W GS all the kids who went on to Uni appeared to study Medicine or went to Teacher Training College, neither appealed to me.
Moving on about 15 years and our eldest son went to the local primary school in Bedfordshire. He was doing ok but he was a shy little lad. The school sent a letter home announcing that there would soon be 38 kids in his class. We made the decision that he would drown in that class and went searching for a Prep school for him. He and his little brother, who was nearly 5, started the next term and they loved it. It was the best decision we’ve made for our boys. They moved on up to the main school and then to University. It’s cost us many thousands of pounds but so worth it for the education, sport and the friendships and networking that have remained even now when they’re well into their forties. We feel we made the right decision for our kids to have the same opportunities that we had for FREE at a State Grammar School in the 50s and 60s.And now the next generation of our clan is at an Independent Prep School and thriving. But if Starmer has his way (when he gets in) the fees will go up another 20%. No doubt causing already struggling parents to move their offspring into already over-subscribed state schools. A politics of envy.
Lizzie, I'm not sure where the 'envy' comes in.
Nobody on here, me included, is saying you don't have the right to pay for private education. I also recognise that some will have little problem paying fees running into thousands, whilst others might have to make considerable sacrifice to do so.
However, the vast majority simply don't have the 'wherewithall' to 'go private', however much they might want to, and in any case we are all entitled to ask Govt. why it becomes necessary at all?
It's not difficult to show that funding for state schools fell by around 8% after the Tories gained power in 2010 and that subsequent increases in funding have barely, if at all, been enough to repair the damage. Meanwhile many schools are quite literally falling apart.
My main issue though, is that of 'Charitable Status'. I simply cannot see how a school which charges fees in order to provide Private education, can in any sense be seen as a 'Charity'.
From the Guardian:
QuoteThe Tories’ defences for maintaining charitable status were paper thin. The education secretary, Gillian Keegan, said ending tax breaks was the “policy of envy” and could prompt many fee-paying schools to scale back the number of bursaries and scholarships they offer. But data shows that schools’ “financial assistance” is actually considerably more likely to go to affluent, middle-class families than disadvantaged ones. To object to this is not envy: it’s decency. Meanwhile, Rishi Sunak argued the move would be an attack on the “hard-working aspiration of millions of people” – despite the fact that the average annual fee for day pupils at independent schools is £15,191, around half the average UK salary before tax, and far beyond what most of us can “aspire” to.
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12 hours ago, Oztalgian said:
Why anyone would need a hymn book I don't know as most only mumbled or said rhubarb, rhubarb. Morning assembly and god bothering was not popular in our school.
Because possession of that Hymn Book was compulsory.
Everyone kept it permanently in the pocket of their jacket. It was smaller and thinner than an average paperback and had a pale blue cover. It was also normal practice to keep your timetable taped to the inside rear cover. I can see the timetable now.. hand drawn little boxes representing each period with the subject, room and teacher's initials in each.
As for religion. I just went along with it without any real faith and I have to say I absolutely loved the annual Carol Service at the High Pavement Chapel from which the school originated. Stan Middleton who was a very good organist as well as English teacher and Booker Prize winning novelist, always kept us entertained before the service started. The chapel was always very warm and 'Christmassy' and as well as formal singing etc.. we were often entertained by upper school 'folk singing' type lads, with guitars and 'popular' Christmas songs. It really used to mark the start of Christmas for me.
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20 hours ago, Brew said:
Col you said 'do-able' and the wider family contributed, good on them.
I can't remember what the requirements were only that a shop in town was to be the sole supplier of uniforms, sportswear etc and they were expensive. With five kids from 11 to 2 it was never going to happen.
Looking back the cost of a bit of school kit was a pittance compared to the cost of the education provided and probably even less when you consider that everybody had to have clothes to wear to school whatever. The fact that some couldn't accept places because they couldn't afford the requisite 'kit' is scandalous..especially considerinig the 'egalitarian' motives of the 1944 Act. There really should have been some sort of formal system of assistance in place.
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That's the one! I think also that Sisson and Parker were the big Stationers who supplied schools with exercise books etc.
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I can see that. I forget the name of the Uniform Supplier in Friar Lane. They supplied the best quality jackets etc, but jackets could also be had from the co-op, for less. They soon faded and became quite obvious but nobody I know looked down on the wearers. I don't recall snobbery of any sort during my time at HP.
As we emerged onto Gainsford Crs. and some of the Padstow lot emerged opposite, there was occasional banter, but nothing serious. They decided to call us 'Cads'. I don't know if they knew what it meant.
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19 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:
I passed the 11+ with a high enough score to prompt the head of Berridge to pressure my mother to allow me to sit the entrance exam for NGHS.
I was always in a world of my own back then and didn't understand the 'machinations', but my pal Nigel , from the grocer's round the corner, was exceptionally bright. He went through some sort of assessment for Nottm High School.. for a scholarship as I understood it. Another lad, who always struck me as a bit dim, also went through the same process and was offered a place. I don't suppose the fact that his dad was an Inspector of Police, whilst Nigel's dad was a grocer..had the slightest influence on the outcome...
Eitherway.. Nige went to HP and then on to be a Dr of Consumer Psychology, Senior University Lecturer etc. and still has an online presence.
https://jardindespsyches.co.uk/blog/
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Obviously I don't know the demands made by Mundella, but HP requirements were 'Do-able'.
-Approved jacket and tie, plus cap until yr 3. The rest was pretty much standard across all secondaries., such as grey or black trousers and 'proper' shoes. Grey or White shirts. 'Loud' socks were discouraged, but not a hanging offence. The school scarf was optional, my Grandma bought me one for Christmas...
A white cotton apron for science and woodwork/metalwork. Most parents made them.
Two Rugby shirts. One in Blue and the other in house colours.
Blue Rugby shorts.
White 'gym' shorts.
White 'T' shirt.
White 'plimsolls'
Rugby Boots
And for cricket, which wasn't necessary until the spring. White Trousers and shirt..so halfway there..and ideally boots, but 'plimsolls' were acceptable.
A 12" rule, pencil, pen (not 'ball point') and a basic Geometry Set (Set Square, dividers, compasses etc.)
A Hymn Book, bought from school for 1s 6d
Some sort of bag. Most used Forces surplus haversacks in Army Drab or RAF Blue Couple of bob from Wakefields.
I think that's it..., though a slide rule was optional and I got one much later... Not that I learned much from it.
Also worth noting that there was school 'Benevolent Fund' which discretely assisted really hard up students with the costs of school kit etc. A collection was made during Registration, once a week I think.
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17 hours ago, Brew said:
As someone who has gone trough the somewhat esoteric route of grammar, uni and career. You above all of us are in a better position to judge yet I rather think your political persuasions will not let you see the value of private schools.
Yes, it all sounds very priveleged when you put it that way, but it was rather less than 'plain sailing'.
Yes, I went to a very good Grammar School because I met the criteria of the time and my parents (and wider family) contributed to equipping me with all of the 'extras' required. I was a moderately successful student, but messed up totally after leaving, partly due to my own obstinacy/bad judgement, but also due to almost non existent career guidance.
I didn't go to Uni until 16 years later and only then because it was the only way I could see to get back into stable, worthwhile and reasonably well paid employment. 4 years of abject poverty, just about surviving on around £1100 per term, or roughly 'benefit rates', whilst also trying to bring up a young family. It was very hard on all of us.
As for 'career'. Once into the Careers Service I did very well for 12 years, though the pay wasn't exactly impressive. Steady promotion etc, all brought to a grinding halt by a massive heart attack, which caused me to take 'early retirement' at 47. After a few years doing 'bits and pieces', I felt confident enough to go back into Career Guidance, but I refused all 'promoted' posts and contented myself with managing a 'basic grade' role, until the whole thing was destroyed by the joint and malevolent attantions of Blunkett, Milburn and finally Gove. I hung on until 8 months before retirement age and that was that.
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16 hours ago, Brew said:
I'm not attacking anything I'm merely pointing out that it seems incongruous that you think the private sector are somehow different to the grammar stream in terms of education or status. Nor do I accept criticism of independent schools.
You continue to miss the gigantic Elephant in the Room. Even if, as is doubtful.. there is some educational equivalence between the two, Independent Schools are only accessible to those who can afford to pay for the privelege, Grammar Schools were open to those who met the criteria of the time, FOR FREE. It's arguable that the 11+ system created 'winners and losers'. It is a simple fact, that the existence of fee paying Independents allows a 'win' to be purchased by those who can afford to do so.
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7 minutes ago, Cliff Ton said:
We have to accept that language changes and develops over time. If it didn't, where would the line have been drawn ?
Should we still be speaking like Shakespeare; or Chaucer; or using mainly French or Latin ?
People tend to disapprove of anything which is not the way it was in their younger days.
Well of course Kev, you are correct in saying that words change in meaning and usage over time. Some like those you quote, change slowly and sort of permanently. Others come and go almost by the week, such as the way youngsters communicate almost by a code, in which, for e.g., 'sick' meant ' excellent' and 'bad, meant 'cool, or 'good' etc..
I still maintain that 'Woke' is a special case, because the word had a specific meaning from its origin in 1930s US black culture. It meant 'alert to injustice'. It was revived and became much more widely known after the high profile racist murders by US Police and others which characterised Trump's 'reign'. At that point, the American and then the UK political far right started using it as a blanket and derisory term for any and all opposition, therefore rendering its original meaning unusable and its present meaning far too broad and imprecise. This all happened in a couple of years.
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On 2/26/2024 at 8:23 AM, Stuart.C said:
The boundaries are also regularly changed in the U.K to keep the number of registered voters per ward as equal as possible.
I'm in Nottingham North which is now changing to Nottm North and Kimberley as the numbers in Nottm North have dropped below the minimum.Which raises a couple of interesting issues. Why Kirkby and not some other adjacent area?
Also, If I recall correctly, that utter Bastion of Democracy, Boris Johnson, attacked the electoral commission and removed its independence. I don't have time to further research that at the moment..but 'just saying'..
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13 hours ago, Oztalgian said:
That's fine DJ360 but what word would you use to describe those in society that want to rewrite history and "bend" past decisions to suit todays sometimes strange interpretations of what is right. Given the dross that appears in film and TV today surely the BBFC have other things to focus on rather than reclassifying a 1965 film.
I wouldn't use Woke. It's too broad and ill-defined and as I say is a convenient term for the political right to use to whip up populist rage against anything and everything which doesn't suit their agenda. In that sense its misappropriation is both dishonest AND dangerous.
I've no doubt that there will be people out there who are happy to describe anyone who opposes Lee Anderson's recent inflammatory comments as 'woke'. In the specific example you quoted, surrounding the use of an obsolete word, in an obsolete film, I would use the term 'historical revisionist' to describe the motivations of the censors. A better way in my view would be as is often done on TV, to point out that a programme contains outdated words and attitudes etc.
Let's get real here. The political right doesn't really give a toss whether that word is used in that film or not.. what they do care about is employing and intensifying 'Culture Wars' as vote winners, in the absence of any worthwhile policies or track record.
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39 minutes ago, Brew said:
Hmmm but they were the conduit to university where most of the government comes from, and they make the rules...
And so were/are 'Independent' schools.. you really can't deflect all criticism of Independents by attacking Grammars.
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Not sure there are many real patterns.
Some people blame their every problem on not passing the 11+ and harbour a deep resentment, without any real understanding of what they would have been required to do. Others hated every minute of Grammar School. There seems to be a huge amount of affection for Padstow Secondary School, which my brother and sister both went to. My late Sister, bless her, was never academic, but neither was she bothered by that. My Brother, on the other hand often relates how difficult it was to be heard through the rabble and get help from teachers if struggling with anything. He's no mug though.
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1 hour ago, philmayfield said:
Even grammar schools were selective, dividing the entrants into A,B and C forms. This was presumably on 11+ results. There was the ability to rise through the ranks dependant on exam results over the years. The C’s and most of the B’s left in the fifth form at age 16. Those with 6 or 7 O-levels went into the 6th form and either down the arts or science routes.
HP was divided into 4 'streams'. Nothing to do with 11+ results as I recall, because we were all just taught the same stuff in Yrs 7,8 and 9. Allocation to one of the 4 'streams' was based on performance in years 7, 8 and 9...a.k.a. First Second and Third Form. The formal GCE courses did not start until 4th year and your range of subjects was mostly determined by your 'stream'.
'Modern A'. The top lot, they did English Language and Lit, three sciences, Latin plus one other other Modern Language, History OR Geography and Maths. 9 Subjects.. if memory serves.
'Science A' All of the above, minus Latin. I was in the Science A stream.
'Science B' I don't recall the difference between Science A and B
'Modern B' Again.. I don't recall.
In my final year I dropped History, which I hated, in the hope of picking up my appalling Maths, but it didn't help.
So I ended up with 6 O Levels, not including Maths.
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1 hour ago, Brew said:
An inspection report is a flag to do better and is soon remedied. An 11+ failure is for life
In a very real sense, nobody 'passed' or 'failed' the 11 plus. It was a selection process, not an exam. And it also wasn't for life, unless people just rolled over and accepted their 'fate'. There are numerous examples of people who did as well or better, both financially and educationally, after having missed a Grammar School place.
I fully agree that it was a pretty brutal selection process and there are multiple criticisms which can and have been levelled at the process, but it was arguably better than what went before, since, as I understand it, access to Grammar School type education was very restricted prior to WW2. The system resulting from the 1944 Act was an attempt to provide FREE secondary education for all, including more places for those capable of benefitting from a more 'academic' regime, plus similar for a 'technical' regime and for everyone else. I am completely sure that many of a less 'academic bent', would have been thoroughly miserable if confronted with a Grammar School education. Failure to fund good enough 'Secondary Modern' educational facilities was not the fault of Grammar School pupils.
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1 hour ago, Brew said:
C'mon you can do better than that...
How? It isn't illegal to pay for an 'exclusive' education, but you argued that attending Grammar Schools via selection on ability smacked of 'pulling the ladder up', and yet somehow you appear to be saying that having the means to buy a 'better' education doesn't.
And anyway, my issue is with Charitable Status for 'independent' (I.E. Fee Charging) schools.
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Here's a post from earlier I typed but neglected to press 'submit'.
I withdraw the word 'merit' and replace it with 'ability'. Is that less 'elitist'?
9 minutes ago, Brew said:Being smarter does not give anyone an excuse to pull the ladder up behind them.
And yet being wealthier does?
9 minutes ago, Brew said:you cannot say your parents were not highly delighted and proud that you were apparently doing better than your peers.
I didn't say that. They were proud, but they also very firmly reminded me of just how much even this 'free' Grammar School education was going to cost for stuff like uniforms etc., and expected me to act accordingly. I was immensely proud not only to go to the school, but of the school itself.
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9 minutes ago, Brew said:
You dislike one word pass or fail exams results yet would you not agree the 11+ was pretty much the same.
It's actually 'One Word' Inspection Reports I dislike as they are meant to convey an impression to all and sundry. The 11+ was a selection process. A different method with a different purpose.
I don't know how the 11+ was assessed, but I do know that there were a number of elements to it. and it was used to select enough students to fill the available Grammar School places, as well as, I assume, Technical School places.It wasn't perfect, but what is?
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2 minutes ago, Brew said:
Sorry Col but that really comes across as elitist
I withdraw the word 'merit' and replace it with 'ability'. Is that less 'elitist'?
3 minutes ago, Brew said:Being smarter does not give anyone an excuse to pull the ladder up behind them.
And yet being wealthier does?
4 minutes ago, Brew said:you cannot say your parents were not highly delighted and proud that you were apparently doing better than your peers.
I didn't say that. They were proud, but they also very firmly reminded me of just how much even this 'free' Grammar School education was going to cost for stuff like uniforms etc., and expected me to act accordingly. I was immensely proud not only to go to the school, but of the school itself.
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6 minutes ago, Brew said:
Not at all it is entirely unreasonable to expect government to monitor the actions of every council decision and also be aware of every transgression by those who should know better. to do so would require a vast increase in the civil service and the cry of nanny state would be deafening.
You miss my point entirely. It is not about 'nanny states', or Govt. 'micro management'. It is about haveing effective regulation.
It is Tory 'deregulation' and the privatisation of regulation to dispense with the myth of 'red tape', which brought us to this pass. Had the Tories not deliberately deregulated then those responsible would be much more easily brought to book and it's probable Grenfell would not have happened anyway.
Deregulation of everything from Construction, to Health, to Public Utilities and Transport have been an unmitigated disaster. You know this.
Anything Political
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Jim. I'll come back on the rise of the far right later.
As for Galloway. The only person Galloway is working for is Galloway. He's a Pound Shop Farage with a similar record of failed parties and incoherent rantings.
I very much doubt he'll survive the next election, but it makes little difference eitherway.