[old netherfield]

      In the early 1900's a Blanche Parrott attended Ashwell Street school.

[Forty Bridges or Giltbrook/ Kimberley/ Awsworth Viaduct]

       Am in agreement with you. Another missed opportunity of preserving our heritage.

       Money and the A610 meant otherwise.

[Paying to get into Netherfield]

        My apologies for the ambiguity in my previous post. Could have been worded better, sometimes my brain and typing finger whilst lickety splitting the same slope, don't necessarily do it at the same time.

        I worry that I tend to bang on a bit, leading to my post sometimes not appearing on paper the same as my thought process.

       You are correct, Netherfield as a town didn't exist until after the railways came. The ambiguity arised as I put old maps and street names in the same sentance: up until WW1, a lot of adverts for housing rental gave the street names in Colwick and not Netherfield.

      Prior to enclosure, ownership seemed messy, Gedling seemed to claim the northern part and Colwick the southern part known as the Hesgang Pastures. (Some old maps show this part as belonging to Radcliffe, due to a change in the course of the river no doubt).

     The Earl of Chesterfield and Charles Pierrepont nawing away at each other over ownership until the enclosure act sorted out their disputes, (more or less).

     Allegedly, the first house built in Netherfield was a cottage built by William  Brierley on the corner of Victoria Road and Meadow Road, where the bank buildings now stand. However, there were also two farms: one in the Hesgang Pastures and one in the nether field, both must have been fairly substantial as they both had servants and farm hands living on the premises. One was known as Netherfield Farm. (Probably originally the Nether Field Farm.) There was also a person named Greaves who was extracting gravel.

     These farms disappeared when the railways arrived, with the landscape altering completely, including the old bridle way from Stoke Bardolph to Colwick. The railways to some degree kept a pathway through the sidings: at the end of Netherfield Lane a footpath carried on, over a footbridge whilst the old LNWR sheds were in use, continuing until another path joined from Colwick East signal box where there still is I believe an unmanned crossing to Colwick Estates, the western part of the old bridle way, continuing a bit further and the path zips left and under the sidings, each of the bridges had to be a height so a man on horseback could ride beneath them. (Never tried it myself.) finally emerging east of the sidings to continue to Stoke Bardolph. This part got altered later with gravel extraction.

      There must have been legal implications for this pathway to remain as it must have cost a fair bit to build three/four bridges to allow this to happen, not forgetting the footbridge.

     Once again I have waffled on away from the original question.

     Most people on here won't have a clue about any of this.

    Carlton didn't seem to come into the equation until the expansion of Nottingham moved east. 

[Paying to get into Netherfield]

         The toll gate at Netherfield was a contentious issue for many years. Stemming from the enclosure act the road now designated Meadow Road should have been a public carriage way to the boundary with Colwick Estates owned at the time by the Musters family.

However, the residents of Colwick Hall decided to charge people for right of way over their land. They erected the gate in the position photographed, unfortunately it was erected in the wrong place. It should have been erected just past where Meadow Road turns into Charworth Road. Originally, the area was known as Gedling/Colwick/Stoke Bardolph. This may have been part of the problem of the original siting. Why the Earl of Carnarvon didn't tap Lord Musters on the shoulder and ask him what he was playing at. Technically, people were paying the Musters family to travel over Carnarvon's land. 

       Old maps show Netherfield as part of Colwick or Gedling, in fact there are many references to streets in Netherfield being listed as Colwick.

      Somewhere in the system, Netherfield comes under the influence of Carlton. It is this council that eventually takes ownership of this stretch of road having paid compensation in 1905, along with Nottingham Corporation and Basford RDC.

     By this time, a Colonal Davies owned Colwick Hall. Not a bad little earner.

    As an aside, this boundary confusion may account for the railway sidings being called Colwick and not Netherfield. The boundary actually ran to the East of the railway line so technically the railway station was erected in Colwick. Many people think the railway as the boundary.

   Those who are familiar with the area will know of the cinder path running along side the railway, that is the boundary.

   Actually, the Earl of Carnarvon only came to own the land through his wife's inheritance, really it should have been the Earl of Chesterfield who should have been asking the question earlier.

     As the gate was supposedly erected around 1800, there must have been a lot of chuntering over the years.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

     AfferGorritt:- will you be posting your memoirs? (Sorry, research.)

 

     I refrained from mentioning the Edgar Alan Poe version.

     His wife and mother-in-law spent time and money trying to locate what happened to him. 

 

     Apart from two versions of basically the same story:- he escaped the battle on horseback across the River Trent. One tale has him reaching the opposite bank and riding away. The other has his horse stumbling to climb out of the water with Lovell falling into the water.

 

     There is an account of him routing some Lancastrians on the 10th June whilst leading some cavalry.

 

    As you rightly point out. It seems inconceivable if he's alive he doesn't resurface 10 years later when Perkin Warbeck appears.

 

    

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

      Phew! That was close! Internet went down just after I had posted!

 

      There is certainly no mention of him after the battle.

      I have an open mind on Lovell.

      Escaping the battle and dying of his wounds is indeed credible.

      I recollect reading somewhere of him drowning, if he was wounded and weak it's feasible, considering the clothing he would have been wearing.

     However, there is also a document that states he was given safe passage through Scotland before going abroad. This could be misinformation as this may be the group that had been giving Northumberland the runaround. Am sure this wasn't Lovell.

     Many were probably put to the sword after the battle, but again, no mention of Lovell. 

     Sometimes I wonder if he was actually there.

 

    A mystery. Where's Poirot?

 

     Good reason for Henry executing him. Though he probably wouldn't need a reason.

     Warbeck was certainly treated differently to  Simnal.

 

     The priest involved in the first revolt was gaoled, never to be seen again.

     In those days being incarcerated rarely ended well.

 

     Yes, Simnal did end up as head falconer.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

AfferGorritt:-     I acquiesce to your request. You will probably need to sit down with a triple malt.

                      

                        16th June 1487, was the anniversary of a battle fought in Nottinghamshire which allegedly has the highest mortality of any battle fought on home soil.

                        6000/7000 men are alleged to have been killed in a battle lasting just under 3 hours. Giving a statistic of between 33 & 39 men dying every minute!

                         It entered the history books as The Battle of East Stoke. However, I believe it took place closer to Syerston. Smaller skirmishes taking place around the perimeters. The O. S. Map shows the battle having taken place south east of East Stoke.

                        This insurrection began when a priest, whose name eludes me at the moment, having a young man under his tutelage: Lambert Simnal. This priest thought this young man bore a close resemblance to Edward, Earl of Warwick, the eldest of the princes incarcerated in the Tower of London. Having taught him Royal protocol he took him to the Earl of Lincoln, whether the Earl of Lincoln believed this story is not known, however he recognised an opportunity to possibly topple Henry VII.

                       The Earl of Lincoln amassed an army of approximately 8000 men. Of these, 2000 were German /Swiss mercenaries; well armed and well equipped. These men knew what they were about and would not have come cheap. Amongst his army were 4500 Irish mercenaries. These resembled a type of light infantry, hit and run fighters, not known for prolonged hand to hand combat. These men were poorly armed and poorly equipped. Whether the Earl of Lincoln had been looking for more support from closer to home, he doesn't appear to have received very much.

                      Landing in Lancashire from Ireland, they made their way into Yorkshire. The Earl of Lincoln had information the Earl of Northumberland was venturing south with an army to join up with Henry VII. He despatched some men north to detract the Earl of Northumberland from his journey by carrying out skirmishes before heading north with the Earl of Northumberland in pursuit.

                      More of the Earl of Lincoln's cavalry were engaged in skirmishes over three or four days though Sherwood Forest, before following some men loyal to the King to Nottingham.

                     Meanwhile, the Earl of Lincoln had crossed the River Trent at Fiskerton. By this time, Henry VII had arrived in Nottingham with around 12000 men. He was joined by a contingent from Wales of approximately 3000 men.

                     It is quite likely Henry knew what his opposition were going to do before the Earl of Lincoln did. He was able to outmanoeuvre his opponents by subterfuge and propaganda. Possibly even having someone in the Earl of Lincoln's army.

                    Before leaving Nottingham, Henry had hung several spies, was this the fate of some of those having chased the men loyal to the King to Nottingham?

                    Therefore, on paper, there could have been the possibility of 23000 men taking part in this battle. This would not be the case. The Earl of Lincoln had despatched some of his men north, playing chase me, chase me with the Earl of Northumberland. A unit of cavalry hadn't returned from Nottingham, along with those killed or wounded during several days of skirmishes reduced his ranks a little.

                   Where were the Earl of Lincoln's pickets?

                   There was talk of many of his men having embibed the night before, being in no it state to fight, it is even alleged that some even missed the battle completely through intoxication. Is this fact? Or a scribe of Henry's being economical with the truth?

                   Whatever the truth, it appears King Henry's Vanguard with the Earl of Oxford at their head, caught them napping, or at least ill prepared. Whilst King Henry rode with his army, he was happy to let his generals sort out battle plans and formations.

                   On the morning of the 16th June, (being a Saturday, King Henry believed Saturday's were his lucky days,) shortly before the ninth hour, the Earl of Oxford came across some of Lincoln's men on the brow of a hill. This vanguard quite likely consisted of around 4000 men. However, he had archers.

                  I think the reason he caught the Earl of Lincoln's men off guard is due to him arriving having travelled via Shelford, East Bridgeford and Kneeton. The Earl of Oxford wouldn't have used the old Fosse Way as he would have considered an ambush to take place. This is quite likely Lincoln's objective considering the calibre of the majority of his army.

                 Historians say that Lincoln was looking for battle. I'd be very surprised with this contingent of men, knowing his men to be inferior to the Kings Vanguard an ambush would have been his best option. He may even have taken the Earl of Oxford prisoner to be used as ransom.

                The Earl of Oxford ordered his archers to set about firing on these men on the brow of the hill. However, instead of retreating, the buggers attacked. Probably initially catching the Earl of Oxford off guard as at first they struggled to suppress the attack. Eventually, the Kings men began to gain momentum and take advantage, forcing Lincoln's men back. The German/Swiss mercenaries stood their ground and fought to the last man. The Irish tried to retreat, getting slaughtered for their pains. They were forced back into a ravine, now unless this word meant something different in those days, the only possible place this could be is where the weirs are. A report from the time states that many died at their own hands whilst clambering down the ravine to escape. Some drowning in the river Trent.

             To me, it appears the main battle took place around the northern edge of Syerston airfield. Henry placed his Standard at the point of initial contact on the brow of the hill. In the vicinity of his Standard, an observer remarked at the time about bodies laying like dead hedgehogs. Such had been the ferocity of the arrow bombardment.

            By mid-day, this stretch of English countryside resembled a vision of hell. Of the death toll, over 4000 came from the ranks of the Earl of Lincoln, including his own. Also dead were the leaders of both sets of mercenaries.

           A small number were rounded up afterwards, having escaped from the garden of Hades. The Irish and English were given the dangle dance, a handful of Germans were stripped of their weapons and chattels and released.

          If you peruse the map DavidW posted, you get an idea of the butchers yard between Syerston and the weir.

 

        Think I now need a malt and a lie down!

[Whatever happened to......?]

       Democracy.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

         AfferGorritt, are you sure?

         Also, when was the world normal?

        Certainly not after the human race found a way of buggering it up.

        Sorry, I digress.

        Back to the thread, I will do as you request.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

       AfferGorritt, such is life. Maybe you did Nottstalgia a favour!

      I know about the burial slab associated with Viscount Lovell, like you say, of the possibilities it does have credence.

      Have spent many a moment in the graveyard, looking at its inhabitants and the architecture of the church. However, I have only been inside on one occasion (maybe twice).

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

    Came up your previous content has been restored.

   Disappeared back into the ether.

 

  It is very small consolation that I am not on my own.

  Thanks for advice Brew.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

   Have absolutely no idea of what has just happened. Spent ages typing in about the lead up and battle at East Stoke.

   Affer Gorritts posted a reply as I was about to send and it's all disappeared!!!!

 

  Is there any way I can retrieve it, just spent an hour or more on it.

[Stoke bardolph manor house.]

   In 1487 Stoke Bardolph Manor belonged to Viscount Lovell.  However, in June of that year, he fought alongside the Earl of Lincoln against the Kings army at East Stoke. After the battle he disappeared, never to be seen again. He could have been killed and his body lay unidentified. As was the custom of the time, his lands were forfeit and became property of the King. He eventually transferred the Manor to his sister's son Henry Norreys. 

   However, he lost his head after an alleged dalliance with Ann Boleyn. Again the land returning to the King as forfeiture.

   Am not aware of any mayor battle or skirmish at Stoke Bardolph, but Shelford had the misfortune of mass annihilation when Col Hutchinson's men relieved Shelfords Royalists of their occupation of the Manor House. No quarter given.

[Cowboys?]

      Boots n Saddles,

.                                   Have Gun Will Travel,

                                                                           Cheyenne,

                                                                                              Maverick,

.                                                                                                                Last of the Mohicans,

                                                                                                                                                         Davy Crockett,

                                                                                                                                                                                    Broken Arrow.

        Might stir a few memories. 

[Things you don't see anymore]

         Common Sense.

 

          People taking responsibility for their own actions.

[Things you don't see anymore]

     Am with Compo on this. Have always referred to them as ghost dolls or sand men. Told many years ago about their origins and probably liked the idea of them being from another dimension.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

        Thanks Cliff Ton, another piece in the jigsaw, trouble is I don't know if it's a piece for the right jigsaw.

        That's where I roughly anticipated the yard to be.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

     Thanks for your comments Loppy. Will see what developes. Have had a few issues.

 

     Could do with a little help from a genealogist as I seem to be floundering. Have found a person of interest in John Wainman.

     This gentleman died in 1912 leaving a substantial sum in his will. His address being given as 18 Mapperly Road. Unless he moved home late in life, the number may be a misprint. Born in 1832, he was recorded as living in St Mary's area of Nottingham in 1881.His grandfather (born Doncaster), father (born 1802) and son were also named John. His son was born in 1894 meaning he was a bit long in the tooth when he had him. He appears to have had two marriages.

     In 1894, 1898 he was living at 8 Mapperley Road. A neighbour at 7 Mapperley Road being Watson Fothergill.

    The family seem to have many links to St Mary's area. Unable to locate him running a business, this could be that his company name didn't carry his name. There was a Wainman's Yard somewhere in Nottingham, probably St Mary's, but am unable to locate it on any map. Not unusual as there were a lot of 'yards' in Nottingham not recorded on maps. 

    Have found a reference to a Councillor Wainman, is this him?

    John had two brothers, one William was a beer seller and shopkeeper at 39 Mount Street and also owned a printers at Rigleys Yard Long Row.

    Am interested in the period 1879 - 1899. Was he involved in land, building, owning properties in Netherfield within these dates?

     In 1879 a J Wainman purchased some houses in Sneinton at auction.

     In 1889 a J Wainman was involved in houses in Manvers Street. ( this could either be Sneinton or Netherfield as both had references to being in Colwick.)

    In 1886 a J Wainman was involved in the purchase or sale of a 7 horse power engine and boiler in connection with the LNWR taking premises. ( this again could refer to Sneinton or Colwick).

   Could any of these transactions have been carried out by John Wainman?

   It may be worth noting that John's other brother was named James.

  Any information would be helpful, although it wasn't me who asked the question in the first instance.

  Am currently not on any ancestry site.

  

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

     Blimey! That was quick! Thanks Stuart C.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

      Only half of what I have written has been posted! 

     I can't find the missing section, any ideas or has it disappeared into the ether?

 

     Cliff Ton :- if you have access to picture the past, there is a photograph of Netherfield Lane signal box and railway house, beyond the signal box can be seen the roof and rear wall of the co op garage. Is it possible to post it on here?

 

    The rest of my post will have to be rewritten another day.

 

    Anyone out there have problems posting?

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

  Thanks Loppy, been sliding down a few dead ends attempting to find how they came to be built and why they don't seem to appear on any map. ( not helped with libraries being closed.)

 A slight deviation here, 5 newly erected houses for sale in John Street, Netherfield. February 1907. This seems to date John Street but doesn't aid the query in hand. It also possibly indicates a variation in the road layout we see today. For those thinking I am smoking a funny cigarette, John Street became Dunstan Street.

 Another slight wobble:- assuming the house numbers remained the same when Wainmans Terrace changed name to Devonshire Cottages; in 1930, a miner living at No 3 was severely injured in a roof fall.

 Returning to TSB's second query, Matthew Mann and John Woolley were both on Dunstan Street in 1894. John Trueman was also the sanitary inspector and was still carrying out these duties in 1911. He was also a cottager. Thomas Musson was also a cottager, cow keeper, hay and straw dealer as well as coalman, he was Station Road, as was William Gell and Matthew Tilley( Urban / Station Road.)

 The Midland Rly had a coal wharf adjacent to Wright Street and the G N R's was situated on a road to the left just before Netherfield Lane crossing. I can't remember whether the LNWR had their own coal wharf, or used the GN's. Having a foggy moment here.

 

 Cliff Ton:- if you have access to 

[old netherfield]

     In 1901 a H Parrott was a church warden at St Georges church Netherfield. Still there 1914.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

      I could have worded the information about houses like Wainmans Terrace being built all around Nottingham a lot better. Apologies. It happens when you try to relay to much information in one post. What I was referring to was the propensity at this time to build rows of houses at right angles to the main thorough fare. Only a central walkway, with paths leading off to the individual front doors.

     This only happened on this one occasion in Netherfield. Some could argue Kozi Kots are built like this. However, Kozi Kots were built in line with Meadow Cottages and have gardens.

     I can't find another example in Netherfield. The town was built piece meal and not in any logical pattern apart from most of the roads leading from Victoria Road following field boundaries.

     Initially, when the railways arrived, they looked towards purchasing land and building houses for their workers. This didn't happen because there were too many landowners, land agents and solicitors to deal with, the transactions became messy. One land owner would be happy to sell, another wouldn't sell and another would bump the price up. The railways stood back and basically let whom so ever wanted to, build as and when. It could also be said that the railway companies were themselves getting tight for money.

    This could explain various plans for building and I'm not convinced the council were particularly quick in dealing with certain aspects of these properties being built at the time.

    After the cholera epidemics in Nottingham, it had been decided that something serious had to happen with the management of sewage.

   Carlton had been included in this plan, but Netherfield wasn't. The council weren't particularly quick in sorting this anomaly out.

   They should have insisted all housing be built with proper amenities.  

   Have now wandered away from the original query.

   Returning to Wainmans Terrace, I can't find any mention of it after 1905. Houses were still being advertised for rental in this year.

  Neither can I find any mention of Devonshire Cottages at this time. (Could they have had another name in the interim.)

.  We know  Devonshire  Cottages existed, Cliff Ton has a map with this name recorded and a previous poster had lived there.

  Colloquially, they were referred to as Sparrow Barracks. 

  It is quite possible that other houses conforming to this pattern were in line to be built. The land at the rear of the labour exchange was originally intended to be built on, but wasn't.

 Where the church was built (Dennis Street/Victoria Road). Two square areas had been marked out. The middle one became the Co Op garage and the rear one became a compound for the garage.

 

 TBI:- you may be close to the truth about the origin of the naming. Have done a bit of rummaging and it turns out that people like the Tippler brothers, whilst being recorded as carriers with a regular service between Carlton Station and Nottingham, were also hay dealers and carriers. A few others involved in coal and other transport were also hay dealers and carriers.

 Hay wains were strong four wheelers, makes sense to utilise them in other ways. Coal and other minerals would be arriving daily. People were burning coal in all these new houses, would have to be transported. Hay wagons initially would have been a logical solution.

 Would explain why a lot of coal dealers were also hay dealers.

 

This is only supposition on my part, as I haven't as yet found any evidence.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

      It's a section of an ordinance map showing the area of Netherfield in which TSB asked his question.

      At present, I think this thread has run its course.

      You've had some prolific Netherfield posters in the past but they seem to have moved on.

[Dunstan Street Netherfield]

         Bit late returning, not only name changes but also number changes as in Victoria Road. Originally even numbered on the left travelling from the railway crossing.

        The map I referred to previously was actually in an early twentieth century book I used to own, but can no longer find. Have a feeling someone borrowed it. Thinking about it, it is possible that the author could have altered a map to indicate his perception of early Netherfield and how it could have looked. Squares and roads were marked up which didn't come to fruition. Was he looking at official documents or summising?

        It appears that previous Netherfield posters are on Radford Reds list of missing in action.

 

      DavidW:- there is an H Parrott recorded as a church warden at St Georges Netherfield. ( apologies if I have mistaken the person asking the question.) prior to WW1.

 

  Have a map showing the buildings I previously referred to, it shows Manvers Street school built 1881. Not Staffords built 1883. Does not show Dunstan Street at all. Not even marked out.

 

   The houses built as Wainmans Terrace could be seen all around Nottingham and districts. ( some can be seen on Radford Reds map of Hyson Green.)

 

  coal merchants:- Mathew Mann 3 Dunstan Street & George Woolley 6 Dunstan Street were operating just before WW1.

                                also active at the same time:- Alfred Bryan 33 Chandos Street, John Trueman 63 Godfrey Street, Frederick Wallis 7 Kendrick Street.  Think Netherfield Co Op also had a coal operation at this time.

 

   CliffTon:- if someone wishes to view the map, would you be able to put it on here. I don't think it will happen as it looks as if this thread has run its course.