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pogra8

Stoke bardolph manor house.

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There is compelling evidence that Francis Lovel survived the battle, but died of his wounds shortly after and is buried in All Hallows Church, Gedling. 

http://www.allhallowsgedling.co.uk/francis-lovel.html

This is only a taster of the research carried out by Ted White, one of the Friends of All Hallows. Me and the missus attended one of Ted’s talks in Lambley Church back when the world was normal, and it proved to be extremely interesting. If Lovel is indeed buried in All Hallows then his burial slab is to the right of the altar as you face it. A member of the Richard III Society actually paid for a photographic survey of the surface of the slab to try to “bring up” any remaining inscriptions. Unfortunately results were inconclusive. 

I also did quite a bit of research on the story and I think that it is a distinct possibility.

I thought I’d mentioned it on an earlier post, but I’m afraid the Nottstalgia search engine is beyond me and I’ve been unable to find it.

If anyone is interested I think I still have my research somewhere and I’ll try to somehow upload it.

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Wish ah were clever like yo,  Affer. 

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   Have absolutely no idea of what has just happened. Spent ages typing in about the lead up and battle at East Stoke.

   Affer Gorritts posted a reply as I was about to send and it's all disappeared!!!!

 

  Is there any way I can retrieve it, just spent an hour or more on it.

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Try clicking away from the topic page and back again then click reply it may be in the buffer...

 

I found it worthwhile when making a long post to use a programme like Word. I'm a notoriously bad typist and often do just as you did, lose it.

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    Came up your previous content has been restored.

   Disappeared back into the ether.

 

  It is very small consolation that I am not on my own.

  Thanks for advice Brew.

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Sorry to inadvertently bugger up your post DA!

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I guarantee you aren't the only person who's suffered from that problem. The software on this site can suddenly take on a life of its own.

 

As Brew said, if you're writing more than a couple of sentences copy the whole thing on another programme.

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       AfferGorritt, such is life. Maybe you did Nottstalgia a favour!

      I know about the burial slab associated with Viscount Lovell, like you say, of the possibilities it does have credence.

      Have spent many a moment in the graveyard, looking at its inhabitants and the architecture of the church. However, I have only been inside on one occasion (maybe twice).

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Me too, DA. We must live fairly close to each other. If you can find the time (and willpower) to re-write your post, I, for one, would be really interested to read it.

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         AfferGorritt, are you sure?

         Also, when was the world normal?

        Certainly not after the human race found a way of buggering it up.

        Sorry, I digress.

        Back to the thread, I will do as you request.

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AfferGorritt:-     I acquiesce to your request. You will probably need to sit down with a triple malt.

                      

                        16th June 1487, was the anniversary of a battle fought in Nottinghamshire which allegedly has the highest mortality of any battle fought on home soil.

                        6000/7000 men are alleged to have been killed in a battle lasting just under 3 hours. Giving a statistic of between 33 & 39 men dying every minute!

                         It entered the history books as The Battle of East Stoke. However, I believe it took place closer to Syerston. Smaller skirmishes taking place around the perimeters. The O. S. Map shows the battle having taken place south east of East Stoke.

                        This insurrection began when a priest, whose name eludes me at the moment, having a young man under his tutelage: Lambert Simnal. This priest thought this young man bore a close resemblance to Edward, Earl of Warwick, the eldest of the princes incarcerated in the Tower of London. Having taught him Royal protocol he took him to the Earl of Lincoln, whether the Earl of Lincoln believed this story is not known, however he recognised an opportunity to possibly topple Henry VII.

                       The Earl of Lincoln amassed an army of approximately 8000 men. Of these, 2000 were German /Swiss mercenaries; well armed and well equipped. These men knew what they were about and would not have come cheap. Amongst his army were 4500 Irish mercenaries. These resembled a type of light infantry, hit and run fighters, not known for prolonged hand to hand combat. These men were poorly armed and poorly equipped. Whether the Earl of Lincoln had been looking for more support from closer to home, he doesn't appear to have received very much.

                      Landing in Lancashire from Ireland, they made their way into Yorkshire. The Earl of Lincoln had information the Earl of Northumberland was venturing south with an army to join up with Henry VII. He despatched some men north to detract the Earl of Northumberland from his journey by carrying out skirmishes before heading north with the Earl of Northumberland in pursuit.

                      More of the Earl of Lincoln's cavalry were engaged in skirmishes over three or four days though Sherwood Forest, before following some men loyal to the King to Nottingham.

                     Meanwhile, the Earl of Lincoln had crossed the River Trent at Fiskerton. By this time, Henry VII had arrived in Nottingham with around 12000 men. He was joined by a contingent from Wales of approximately 3000 men.

                     It is quite likely Henry knew what his opposition were going to do before the Earl of Lincoln did. He was able to outmanoeuvre his opponents by subterfuge and propaganda. Possibly even having someone in the Earl of Lincoln's army.

                    Before leaving Nottingham, Henry had hung several spies, was this the fate of some of those having chased the men loyal to the King to Nottingham?

                    Therefore, on paper, there could have been the possibility of 23000 men taking part in this battle. This would not be the case. The Earl of Lincoln had despatched some of his men north, playing chase me, chase me with the Earl of Northumberland. A unit of cavalry hadn't returned from Nottingham, along with those killed or wounded during several days of skirmishes reduced his ranks a little.

                   Where were the Earl of Lincoln's pickets?

                   There was talk of many of his men having embibed the night before, being in no it state to fight, it is even alleged that some even missed the battle completely through intoxication. Is this fact? Or a scribe of Henry's being economical with the truth?

                   Whatever the truth, it appears King Henry's Vanguard with the Earl of Oxford at their head, caught them napping, or at least ill prepared. Whilst King Henry rode with his army, he was happy to let his generals sort out battle plans and formations.

                   On the morning of the 16th June, (being a Saturday, King Henry believed Saturday's were his lucky days,) shortly before the ninth hour, the Earl of Oxford came across some of Lincoln's men on the brow of a hill. This vanguard quite likely consisted of around 4000 men. However, he had archers.

                  I think the reason he caught the Earl of Lincoln's men off guard is due to him arriving having travelled via Shelford, East Bridgeford and Kneeton. The Earl of Oxford wouldn't have used the old Fosse Way as he would have considered an ambush to take place. This is quite likely Lincoln's objective considering the calibre of the majority of his army.

                 Historians say that Lincoln was looking for battle. I'd be very surprised with this contingent of men, knowing his men to be inferior to the Kings Vanguard an ambush would have been his best option. He may even have taken the Earl of Oxford prisoner to be used as ransom.

                The Earl of Oxford ordered his archers to set about firing on these men on the brow of the hill. However, instead of retreating, the buggers attacked. Probably initially catching the Earl of Oxford off guard as at first they struggled to suppress the attack. Eventually, the Kings men began to gain momentum and take advantage, forcing Lincoln's men back. The German/Swiss mercenaries stood their ground and fought to the last man. The Irish tried to retreat, getting slaughtered for their pains. They were forced back into a ravine, now unless this word meant something different in those days, the only possible place this could be is where the weirs are. A report from the time states that many died at their own hands whilst clambering down the ravine to escape. Some drowning in the river Trent.

             To me, it appears the main battle took place around the northern edge of Syerston airfield. Henry placed his Standard at the point of initial contact on the brow of the hill. In the vicinity of his Standard, an observer remarked at the time about bodies laying like dead hedgehogs. Such had been the ferocity of the arrow bombardment.

            By mid-day, this stretch of English countryside resembled a vision of hell. Of the death toll, over 4000 came from the ranks of the Earl of Lincoln, including his own. Also dead were the leaders of both sets of mercenaries.

           A small number were rounded up afterwards, having escaped from the garden of Hades. The Irish and English were given the dangle dance, a handful of Germans were stripped of their weapons and chattels and released.

          If you peruse the map DavidW posted, you get an idea of the butchers yard between Syerston and the weir.

 

        Think I now need a malt and a lie down!

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Me too, DA. We must live fairly close to each other. If you can find the time (and willpower) to re-write your post, I, for one, would be really interested to read it.

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What happened there! Must have been that triple malt! You’ve certainly earned yours, DA. Very informative, thank you.

It’s interesting that Henry VII’s own source (his herald? - must check) has Lovel escaping the battle and fording the Trent, which was very shallow at that time in history, and that time of the year. Lambert Simnel was a really poor excuse of a Pretender and Henry subsequently actually employed him in the kitchens, eventually promoting him to falconer I believe (I really must check my facts!). Not so the later Pretender, Perkin Warbeck who Henry obviously feared and later executed. Something to think on ... why is Lovel, ardent, die-hard Yorkist, who supported the clown Simnel, never mentioned in the Warbeck episode?

Because after escaping East Stoke he died of his wounds?

 

Actually, looking at contemporary portraits, Warbeck is a dead ringer for Edward IV, his supposed father. Hmm....

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      Phew! That was close! Internet went down just after I had posted!

 

      There is certainly no mention of him after the battle.

      I have an open mind on Lovell.

      Escaping the battle and dying of his wounds is indeed credible.

      I recollect reading somewhere of him drowning, if he was wounded and weak it's feasible, considering the clothing he would have been wearing.

     However, there is also a document that states he was given safe passage through Scotland before going abroad. This could be misinformation as this may be the group that had been giving Northumberland the runaround. Am sure this wasn't Lovell.

     Many were probably put to the sword after the battle, but again, no mention of Lovell. 

     Sometimes I wonder if he was actually there.

 

    A mystery. Where's Poirot?

 

     Good reason for Henry executing him. Though he probably wouldn't need a reason.

     Warbeck was certainly treated differently to  Simnal.

 

     The priest involved in the first revolt was gaoled, never to be seen again.

     In those days being incarcerated rarely ended well.

 

     Yes, Simnal did end up as head falconer.

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     AfferGorritt:- will you be posting your memoirs? (Sorry, research.)

 

     I refrained from mentioning the Edgar Alan Poe version.

     His wife and mother-in-law spent time and money trying to locate what happened to him. 

 

     Apart from two versions of basically the same story:- he escaped the battle on horseback across the River Trent. One tale has him reaching the opposite bank and riding away. The other has his horse stumbling to climb out of the water with Lovell falling into the water.

 

     There is an account of him routing some Lancastrians on the 10th June whilst leading some cavalry.

 

    As you rightly point out. It seems inconceivable if he's alive he doesn't resurface 10 years later when Perkin Warbeck appears.

 

    

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