Rose Tinted Glasses?

[Ashley 288]

I wonder if our memories of Nottingham's Railways are as if seen through those? Personally I think not but if the GNR,GCR and NSR had survived we would of course not have had steam trains and I think that is where the "magic" stems from? After all we can still see trains running everyday, in my case right out our front room window but virtually all ignored, unless "rumble rumble" likes of double header class 47,s (as per today) come through, other not so regulars are 37,s and various other tin cans, These of course would still be running in the following scenario, as that is how do you think our local railways would have developed etc had The Great Central not been built? Would the GNR have remained? Likewise the Suburban and would Radford, Basford Vernon and Bulwell Market stations have stayed open? likewise The GNR line north? and would Colwick have developed? your opinions please!

[Scriv 168]

I always thought it was a pity that the Nottingham Suburban Railway never made it into the modern age; it could perhaps have provided the basis of a rapid-transit system as good as the Tyne & Wear Metro.

I also think (like many others I suspect) that the closure of Nottingham Victoria, together with the GCR, was a shortsighted act of folly.

[Limey 242]

It has always seemed odd to me that they got rid of the trams, then the trolley buses, then Victoria station - and then they put in the "new" tram lines! The Victoria Center could easily have accommodated a "commuter rail" station, and the line through the tunnel to the north would have made a wonderful commuter line. Short-sighted? Who knows - when the Vic center was built, nobody had the vision to see the fuel crunches that followed.

As to rose-colored specs - Definitely! Stinky, noisy trains that rarely ran on time, heat in the carriages rarely worked, refreshment cars were poor at best - and often unmanned so they never opened - the list goes on! But it was fun travelling behind a steam engine - as long as you weren't on a tight schedule!

[Scriv 168]

The Victoria Center could easily have accommodated a "commuter rail" station, and the line through the tunnel to the north would have made a wonderful commuter line.

IIRC, one of the original designs for the Vic Centre did incorporate a railway station. Was this not the reason for the bottom level of the car park being very high, or is this merely an urban myth?

[Ashley 288]

Have mentioned before on here (no idea where now) of a report commisioned by the council into having a "light railway" running though the then still open tunnels and still in place viaducts etc of the former GCR/GNR One of the problems was the fact they could not run under victoria centre because of lack of headroom, the thinking to get around that was a new tunnel through the side of the "cliff" under York St and coming out in the market square. As I recall there were 3? seperate "investigations" as to style of light railway, think one was a tram, another a bus service (assume single deckers). Only had a quick glance but there were proper plans, scale drawings etc and whole thing was about size of a phone directory! Never heard of it mentioned elsewhere, think highly confidential, and copy (maybe only one?) I saw was in fact "borrowed" by an employee

[bamber 128]

The Suburban Line was the very expensive answer to a question no one ever asked. Trams, motorbuses and trolleys were faster, more frequent and more convenient so the suburban (with its huge infrastucture overheads) never stood a chance.

There were a number of reasons why tram and trolley bus systems didn't survive in Britain. The first was the Great War which produced a large number of men who had been trained to drive lorries while in the Army. This provided a large pool of men who could be easily switched to motorized bus services by municipal and private bus undertakings.

Then there was the sheer economic muscle of the internal combustion industry. In comparison the tram and trolley bus industries were insignificant. That meant legislation, taxation and policy in general was inevitably skewed towards bus-based solutions.

And finally there was the nationalization of the electrical generation and distribution industries after WW2. This removed any incentive to retain tram and trolley bus services as customers for municipally owned electricity undertakings.

And as for mainline steam ... At a time when British Movietone was trumpeting Mallard as a triumph of British engineering - in fact a technical relic of the 19th Century - the Americans were building their new generation of truly modern diesel electrics. What more does one need to say except misquote "1066 and All That". Steam was wrong but romantic; Diesel was right but repulsive".

[Ashley 288]

When The Nottingham Suburban was planned in 1885 there were no Trams Mototbuses or Trolleys running, indeed the position was still the same on Dec 2nd 1889 when the line was opened and remained thus until Jan 1st 1901 when the first tram ran, When the first Motorbus or Trolley ran I've no idea but obviously later. I agree Trams took their toll esp as that first route was to the road (Winchester St) Sherwood Station was on, the 2nd Tram route opened Feb 21st 1902 ran almost to the site of St Ann's Station (Wells Rd) and the 3rd opened 16th Dec 1910 ran right past Thorneywood Station! (Talk about a fix) I imagine they targeted the NSR passengers?

However the real damage to it was a case of almost hari-kari by The GNR before that who on 24th May 1900 transferred services to Victoria and "shortcutted the short cut" using the GCR to get to Basford (and other directions via Bagthorpe Junc) the new distance being 3 miles as opposed to 7 via the NSR and 10 via the original GNR route

[bamber 128]

But would you build a very heavily engineered line, like the Suburban, to serve what was then largely countryside?

No the Suburban Line was always a very, very bad idea.

[Ashley 288]

I never said it was a good idea and hindsight is a wonderful thing, In 1898 before the GCR opened there were over 60 trains a day using the NSR, true not many passengers used it's stations but this thread is entitled Rose Tinted Glasses and photos of the route and stations evoke a country line within a city image to me,