Midland Suburban Lines

[firbeck 860]

Always lots of talk on here about the GN Surburban Line and the GCR, but not much about the Midland, is it because, apart from a few miles of the Melton route, most of it is still open or are you anti Midland!

The reason I'm raising this topic is due to the fact that I stayed at my sons house on Sherwin Road, Lenton last week, right next to the 'Tin Bridge', the track running alongside the garden. I was astonished at the amount of traffic on the line, almost all of it passenger, few freights. The last train appeared to be at about 01:30am and was a long freight train, the first one of the day, they reckoned 04:30am, sounded like an HST to me, and from then onwards it seemed like every ten minutes, how they manage to sleep in that house is beyond me.

Living near the Radford to Trowell line in Wollaton during the 50's and 60's, we saw very little traffic on the route, we had the expresses more or less every hour on the half hour, few freights apart from the daily pick up at 12:30 and no local traffic until the introduction of the diesel railcar service to Sheffield in the early 60's. There were no trains at all on Sundays and only a few specials at Bank Holidays. I recall that the line was earmarked for closure by Beeching, but somehow survived, then a freight train crash at Trowell in the 80's? destroyed the junction and closed the line for months and was rumoured it was to be the end, but it re-opened eventually.

The Mansfield route closed to passengers in 1964 but was always busy with coal trains, these slowly dwindled, then as we all know, the route reopened in a blaze of glory as the Robin Hood Line in the 90's.

Looking at things today, clearly a case of two fingers up to Beeching, watching the trains go by from our kids garden, they all looked pretty full to me, perhaps it's time to rebuild Radford and Lenton stations, with their large student populations, it could be a winner. Dare I say it, perhaps carry out the original intention of building a station next to Trowell Road Bridge in Wollaton, they could knick some of the unpopular Co-op car park for commuters.

It all raises the question of why on earth they built the tram route into Nottingham alongside the Robin Hood Line, having invested large sums of money into the railway, why create a rival, it doesn't make sense, clearly the way that Manchester re-invented their tramway system was not taken into account.

Incidentally, do any trains ever use the west curve at Lenton Junction, I can't work out if any would, I presume it was retained to take coal to Radcliffe on Soar, but does any coal traffic come down the Mansfield route anymore.

[Fynger 841]

Soon ( suposedly ) the tram will be going through there, through Beeston, Chilwell etc. so theys catering for the students that way so i dont think trains and stations would even be thought of for that area.

[Ashley 288]

Something I would have loved to have seen was "Seeley's Babbington Crossing" on the Radford Trowell route (or even a picture of it)

[firbeck 860]

Something I would have loved to have seen was "Seeley's Babbington Crossing" on the Radford Trowell route (or even a picture of it)

I thought an extract of an OS map showing it's position was published in a previous posting, as for photographs, I've only found one of Lenton Station.

I'd like some information in connection with the alleged station next to Coventry Lane just down from Balloon Woods, no-one seems to be able to confirm or deny its existance.

[Ashley 288]

Yes, have seen it on large scale map (are they 25" to the mile?) in library, it also showed the sidings and sinal box that used to be there but never a photo, only recently heard of that station you mention, wasn't it's name meant to be Bramcote?

[firbeck 860]

only recently heard of that station you mention, wasn't it's name meant to be Bramcote?

Quite right, interestingly there used to be sidings down there that were built to serve the sand quarries at Catstone Hill. I recall them being in-situ with a home signal on the down line controlled from Wollaton Colliery Box, and I have the lever plate for that one somewhere, and the up home controlled from Trowell Junction box. The sidings themselves had a ground frame adjacent to the main line. There was an interesting transit building with louvered vents on an unusual curved roof on the site, which, checking with Google Earth, appears to be, amazingly, still standing. I also note that the lane down to it is called 'Sidings Lane', while the place itself is called Hulks Farm. I have a feeling that in the late 50's that the 12:30 pick up goods used to call in there to collect wagons, I have a vague memory of peering down the line from the Black Path bridge and seeing a train messing about in the distance and wondering which 4F we were about to see. I'm sure this was timed to coincide with the daily pickup from Wollaton Colliery, we'd look the other way from the bridge and see an 8F standing under Trowell Road bridge with a load of empties being shunted backwards into the colliery sidings.

They had to get a move on to miss the 'Twenty Past Oner', always Scot's 'Green Howards' or 'Royal Scots Fusiliers'

the first regular Scot working into Nottingham, I've a picture of it passing the old crossing at the site of the Wollaton Brickworks I took many years ago, slightly blurred but maybe the only one in existance, interested?

[ravintrainman 10]

Always lots of talk on here about the GN Surburban Line and the GCR, but not much about the Midland, is it because, apart from a few miles of the Melton route, most of it is still open or are you anti Midland!

The reason I'm raising this topic is due to the fact that I stayed at my sons house on Sherwin Road, Lenton last week, right next to the 'Tin Bridge', the track running alongside the garden. I was astonished at the amount of traffic on the line, almost all of it passenger, few freights. The last train appeared to be at about 01:30am and was a long freight train, the first one of the day, they reckoned 04:30am, sounded like an HST to me, and from then onwards it seemed like every ten minutes, how they manage to sleep in that house is beyond me.

Living near the Radford to Trowell line in Wollaton during the 50's and 60's, we saw very little traffic on the route, we had the expresses more or less every hour on the half hour, few freights apart from the daily pick up at 12:30 and no local traffic until the introduction of the diesel railcar service to Sheffield in the early 60's. There were no trains at all on Sundays and only a few specials at Bank Holidays. I recall that the line was earmarked for closure by Beeching, but somehow survived, then a freight train crash at Trowell in the 80's? destroyed the junction and closed the line for months and was rumoured it was to be the end, but it re-opened eventually.

The Mansfield route closed to passengers in 1964 but was always busy with coal trains, these slowly dwindled, then as we all know, the route reopened in a blaze of glory as the Robin Hood Line in the 90's.

Looking at things today, clearly a case of two fingers up to Beeching, watching the trains go by from our kids garden, they all looked pretty full to me, perhaps it's time to rebuild Radford and Lenton stations, with their large student populations, it could be a winner. Dare I say it, perhaps carry out the original intention of building a station next to Trowell Road Bridge in Wollaton, they could knick some of the unpopular Co-op car park for commuters.

It all raises the question of why on earth they built the tram route into Nottingham alongside the Robin Hood Line, having invested large sums of money into the railway, why create a rival, it doesn't make sense, clearly the way that Manchester re-invented their tramway system was not taken into account.

Incidentally, do any trains ever use the west curve at Lenton Junction, I can't work out if any would, I presume it was retained to take coal to Radcliffe on Soar, but does any coal traffic come down the Mansfield route anymore.

Taking these a bit at a time.

Yes, I'm definitely anti-Midland, even though I work there

There is a definite lack of information or pictures of the Midland line, especially out east. Nottingham MRS is building a layout based on Trent Lane Junction, and we are struggling to find much in the way of information about the Midland line

The last passenger train of the day arrives from St Pancras around 01.45 and then leaves for Derby, the last non-London service is from Liverpool due in about 00.30.

The first ECS in the morning is due out around 04.00 to Lverpool, there is also a tanker around that time.

Through the day there is a scheduled move in or out of the west end of Midland station every three minutes, doesn't take much to cause major headaches !!

If the Trowell derailment is the one I'm thinking of it was a load of MGRs piled up under the road bridge, train was on the up goods line and damged the pointwork where the Trowell branch crossed over to the fast lines, single slips until remodelled a year or so ago.

The recovery operation was interesting, the wagons were jammed up underneath the bridge deck having overridden the one in front. The only way to get them out was to attach what appeared to be a crane sling to the coupling hook and drag them one at a time. They tried at first with a, then almost new,class 58. Problem seemed though, that the traction control gubbins didn't like the idea of trying to move a seemingly immovable object

So a pair of class 20's were hooked up instead, lots of thrash and a certain amount of wheelspin and one by one the wagons were dragged out

Doubt any more stations will get built, there are the plans, which are slowly starting, to transform Midland station into a transport hub, and other modes will feed the railway. What trains would stop at, say, Bramcote? You have the Norwich-liverpools and the Nottingham-Leeds services on that line, putting extra stops in to serve a, questionable, commuter need, adds time to the schedule. Norwich-liverpool already takes over 5 hours, adding even a few minutes in would need the entire service to be recast, with possible knock-on effects right across the country

The tram route, as is, was done as a quick, relatively cheap fix to get a line up and running, there was always the intention to expand, it is taking a long while though. Several of the Manchester routes have taken over heavy rail routes altogether, there was no real option in Nottingham. Remember that Carrington station was only filled in a couple of years before serious planning for the tram started, apparently the feasablity of breaking into Mansfield Road tunnel from the side was looked at. The section of wall at the end of the forest is not that far from the tunnel. !secret!

There are no scheduled trains over the west curve at Lenton, it is sometimes used by engineers trains, or very occasionaly to turn a unit for some reason. There is no line space for anything other than the Robin hood line service, even that is very dependant on punctuality, due to the single line section from Basford to Kirkby

[Ashley 288]

ravintrainman, Re that wall at the end of the forest, from what I've read the section from the "gates" on mansfield rd down to the bowling green was a sheer drop and the now slope embankment is in fact soil taken from out of the tunnel there being some sort of shaft access somewhere there down to the tunnel, you may like to see my post #5 in "rose tinted glasses" thread in Nottingham Transport new new tunnel. Have you any info on a train derailment in the 1950's just north of New Basford Station on the GCR

[ravintrainman 10]

No idea on the derailment, sorry.

As I understand it, Mansfield road tunnel is complete right up to the tunnel mouth at Carrington, where a concrete wall was constructed, with I think a ladder leading to the surface, then the cutting backfilled. There are, if I recall correctly, some photos in Hayden Reed's book, Volume 3 of The rise and fall of Nottingham's railways. The tunnels have to be inspected periodically as they are underneath roads.

i'll check in the club library copy tomorrow, only go vols 1 & 2 myself.

I wonder if the slope was added as an 'elf n safety' thing at the same time the cutting was filled? I'm pretty sure the drop that was there before was a sandstone wall, perhaps using stone dug from the tunnel when built?

Incidentally, the tunnel is unlined and in remarkably good condition, also many odments are still there including several sleepers and other timber, very well preserved.

Also regarding the Victoria centre and trains, as I remember, it was planned to have a railway line around the bottom level of the car park, when the station was demolished a pair of lines was retained around the eastern side of the site. These were used by coal trains for a short time, until BR decided that they could use the Midland line, sending the traffic to Toton rather than Colwick. The plans for the centre originally envisaged making provision for these lines, but were than changed when the line were closed and lifted.

Indeed for many years the sign above the Milton street Entrance to vic Centre proclaimed 'Victoria Centre, station and bus station'!

[firbeck 860]

If the Trowell derailment is the one I'm thinking of it was a load of MGRs piled up under the road bridge, train was on the up goods line and damged the pointwork where the Trowell branch crossed over to the fast lines, single slips until remodelled a year or so ago.

The recovery operation was interesting, the wagons were jammed up underneath the bridge deck having overridden the one in front. The only way to get them out was to attach what appeared to be a crane sling to the coupling hook and drag them one at a time. They tried at first with a, then almost new,class 58. Problem seemed though, that the traction control gubbins didn't like the idea of trying to move a seemingly immovable object

So a pair of class 20's were hooked up instead, lots of thrash and a certain amount of wheelspin and one by one the wagons were dragged out

I'm kicking myself here, when I went up to see my mother last week, I was looking through some of my dads old photo albums and found a series of pictures he'd taken at the scene of the crash from all angles, these included the two Class 20's attempting to drag the jammed wagons from under the bridge, my dad was never the greatest photographer, he was too impatient, but these were really good quality. Were you on the scene, if so you might be on the pictures.

I'll have to go up to Nottingham again soon, I'll bring them back and scan them.

On a slightly different theme, I also found a load of pictures that my old man took at Barry Scrapyard in the 70's, I can't recall seeing these before either, these are really interesting as well, no doubt that some of the rusting hulks are now running again, I'd better scan those as well.

By the way, stick to the Midland on this one Ashley, no GCR or GN please!!!

[Ashley 288]

Yes, walked through both tunnels more than once, also weekday cross, rathole, mapperley, ashwell's and sherwood, the latter 2 on mototorbike,worked in victoria centre for 20 years and once saw original designers model of the place, don't remember any tunnel or track details but do recall a planned but never built dual carriage way on the model from lower parliament st to mansfield rd following roughly route of glasshouse st till the "big hole" where it went over such on piers, would have meant much demolition ,the palais and that area etc (not a bad thing really!)

[firbeck 860]

Interesting isn't it, I spent my childhood lurking around the Black Path Bridge and playing in Jacko's Holler, all next to the Midland railway line near Balloon Woods, but we took most of our train photos elsewhere, I only have 3 poor pictures.

This is the 'Twenty Past Oner' taken by my brother in early 1960 at the Brickworks Level Crossing, you can still see the boarding between the rails, though I doubt whether a vehicle had been across there for many years, the brickworks had been reduced to rubble by then. The loco is 46117 Welsh Guardsman, shedded in those days at 55A Holbeck, Leeds.

Prior to that, he took a picture of a Jubilee on the 'Waverley' from the same spot:

In 1966, I was a few yards up the line and took this pic of 45562 'Alberta' on the summer Bradford to Skegness holiday special, the last regular steam worked passenger train into Midland Station.

The train is just going over the canal bridge, Coventry Lane in the background.

I have a lovely colour slide of this working that I took a week earlier at Trowell Junction, he was really opening the Jube up to climb the bank up to Wollaton, a spark from the chimney set my hair on fire.

Heres a pic of the canal bridge I took last year:

Finally a picture I took last Easter from the railway bridge into the site of Trowell Moor Colliery, the Hulks Farm sidings were originally in the distance a few hundred yards behind the train on the right hand side.

Incidentally Ashley, have you got any old pics that you took years ago, many of mine, like these, aren't very good, but worth posting for their historical content.

[Fynger 841]

That picture of the Bridge behind Balloon Woods is the very spot where i used to go and get clay from...directly under it.

[Beefsteak 305]

A genuine ' Pot hole ' then

[plantfit 7,646]

Brilliant,just brilliant stuff, I wish I had took pictures in the 60s like you guys, by the way, When are you going to compile this book Pete???

Rog

[firbeck 860]

Further musings on the Trowell-Radford line and some more pics for Rog.

I took this picture last Easter:

This was taken from the Moor Lane bridge looking towards Nottingham, it may look boring at first glance, but some interesting features can be seen. For a start, bottom left of the photo can be seen a surviving timber post from the original brickworks level crossing, I'm amazed it's still there. We then have an original LMS quarter mile post, you will notice a slight depression there, this is where another steel bridge used to be. Jacko's Holler, an old clay pit, used to be on the left, I reckon it was originally some sort of tramway access to the brickworks which were on the right of the photo, I just recall that the area under the bridge used to be flooded all the time, even in dry weather. Just past the site of the bridge, where the cable ducting is, on the right hand side of the tracks, used to be the distant signal controlling the home into the sand quarry sidings, it had a lattice frame and it was operated from Wollaton Colliery Box and was permanently in the on position, I don't ever recall it being set at caution, unless we went down the bank and jumped up and down on the cable. To the right of this was Jacksons Farm and the canal, the farmhouse stood next to the track at the top of the embankment surrounded by an orchard, it did, however have a drift mine.

This ran into the bank with a light railway running down to a wharf on the canal, it finished only a few feet from the railway cutting itself, approximately at the end of that first piece of ducting.

In the distance we can see Black Path bridge, another remarkable survivor and our meeting place when we were kids. If you stood on the end of the right hand parapet, you could see right down the track almost to Trowell at the start of the ascent to Wollaton, when a train swung into view, taking a run at the bank having slowed down for Trowell Junction, we would be trying to make out which class of loco it was, desperately hoping it would be a Longsight Britannia.

Incidentally, there were no trees on the embankments in those days, it's a recent thing to let them grow, no concern for the view for the passengers.

Peering at my photo of Alberta, I was trying to make out it's shed plate, I assumed it would be Holbeck, but look on the buffer beam and it would appear to say Farnley. Indeed, I'd been to Farnley, 55C, in Leeds a few weeks earlier and photographed it there:

One of the other surviving Jubilees however, was in fact Kholapur, now preserved, that in fact was based at Holbeck at the time, shedplate clearly showing, I recorded it on the same day:

When I first started lurking around the Black Path bridge in the 50's, all the expresses into Nottingham Midland were either a combination of Class 5's and Compounds, the famous, named, Jubilees tended to be restricted to the Waverley or further afield at Trowell, the Thames Clyde Express. It wasn't until the early 60's that Scots and Britannias began to appear.

Just to finish off, before you all fall asleep, especially for Ashley, a picture of 46122 Royal Ulster Rifleman. I took this at Willesdon in 1964, by then an established Annesley engine, it had in fact in better days, been shedded at Longsight, Manchester, but had occasionally appeared on expresses via the Trowell line into Midland, can you believe it, Coronation Pacifics were lined up behind me when I took this picture, but we'd better not go there:

Looks like a Jube at the end of the line, I wonder which old Nottingham faithfull this was, probably have a record somewhere.

[rob237 89]

All good stuff Pete...as usual.

Another indication from Pic 1 is how ballasting quality, including the cess, is still retained despite an apparent decline in other aspects of the system. My visits to this section of line were usually confined to Robert Shaw school playing field on Western Boulevard, for the ritual passing of the up 'Waverley' and the down Leeds at 18.00. If the Tizer lasted, we'd also wait for the down 19.30 Bradford...usually a Kentish Town or Holbeck Jubilee, but, every so often, rocking horse droppings from either Kingmoor or Corkerhill.

In many ways the Midland line was much more interesting than the run-down GC.

You'll recall how the Farnley Jct Jubilees became Nottm Vic' regulars in the latter GC days, usually working down to Leicester - but occasionally right through to Marylebone. Once rode behind Bihar and Orissa from the Vic' to Sheffield...as fast a climb up to Hucknall Central as any, except perhaps A3's.

Why is an Annesley Scot back on Willesden shed?

Cheers

Robt P.

[firbeck 860]

Why is an Annesley Scot back on Willesden shed?

Cheers

Robt P.

Interesting point, and I've just looked on the back of the photo and had noted it down as 14A Cricklewood, which would make more sense. I was probably confused with another pic I took that day of 46115 Scots Guardsman at Willesden.

It was a long, cold, wet shed trip that day, starting at Leicester and finishing up at Didcot, late, dark and ending up being chucked out by the foreman, Oxford had to be abandoned due to exhaustion. From memory it was Leicester, Northampton, Wellingborough, Kettering, Bletchley, Bedford, Cricklewood, Willesden, Old Oak Common, Southall, where there was a King Class on the scrapline and most of Didcot till the foreman intervened. Photography was a disaster, my camera couldn't cope and the film ripped in my brothers 35mm, shock horror, he lost the lot, here's a blurred shot of two of those Coronations at Willesden in the pouring rain:

Blurred, but atmospheric and nice to have a personal record. The trip was arranged by 'Polly Flinders' of the Bilborough Grammar School railway society, Camms coaches staged a protest on the way down, the driver hadn't been briefed to take us to each individual shed, he went on strike, it took some heavy phone calls from a phone box on Arkwright St to sort it out.

Have joined LNER by the way.

[rob237 89]

Have joined LNER by the way.

Yes indeed...just read your first post, with two excellent pics.

Sure they'll be better appreciated there than other places I can think of

Will be responding to your mail this evening...

Cheers

Robt P.

[Scriv 168]

"Incidentally, there were no trees on the embankments in those days, it's a recent thing to let them grow, no concern for the view for the passengers."

Think you'll find it's more to do with the fact that diesels don't set 'em alight as often as steam engines did!

[firbeck 860]

"Incidentally, there were no trees on the embankments in those days, it's a recent thing to let them grow, no concern for the view for the passengers."

Think you'll find it's more to do with the fact that diesels don't set 'em alight as often as steam engines did!

I think not, it was a universal task to keep the banks tidy, I believe it's now simply a cost cutting exercise on the part of Network Rail.

Because of the incline, this area was prone to many fires as the steam trains blasted their way up the gradient, fortunately we had no heavy freights which would have thrown burning cinders all over the place.

We once got 'arrested' by the police over a fire incident which took place along the left hand bank on my Black Path bridge photo. We turned up at the bridge one afternoon to find the bank well alight, we ran straight back to my pals house, his mother being one of the few people on Firbeck estate with a telephone. She quickly dialled 999 and called the fire brigade, while we rushed back to see what was happening. The fire brigade and police promptly arrived, however out of the smoke and flames emerged a gang of British Railways employees, they had been sent to cut back the vegetation, which they had simply done by chucking a match in it, we didn't realise this. The police promptly turned on us and threatened to do us for wasting emergency services time, at which point Mrs Hutchings arrived and gave the coppers, the fire brigade and in particular the BR employees, the biggest bollocking of their lives, 'Public spirited boys doing their best, irresponsible BR workers, police jumping to conclusions', etc etc, you didn't mess with Mrs Hutchings. The fire brigade put out the fire, the BR mob bogged off and the police retired red faced with profuse apologies. As for us, madam told us to let it burn in future, we certainly did that, with grandstand seats on the bridge parapet.

[rob237 89]

When I lived at t'other end of Bingham during the 70's, my end house (in a cul-de-sac) had the Nottingham-Grantham line passing on a low embankment, less than 50 feet away.

Annual issue of long grass which, for the first few years, was burnt off by PW staff - until the 'service' ceased. Then undertook the task myself. During a spell of dry weather, I once had flames leaping high as a 2,000 tonne Immingham-Colwick block oil train approached. Luckily, it was of the 100T tank 'heavy-oil' variety - the alternate working of lighter oil, including kerosene, might have been interesting!

Cheers

Robt P.

[edthefolkie 7]

Since the subject of "Alberta" came up, here's a shot taken at Nottingham Midland on 3rd September 1966. Firbeck, yes the shed plate was for Farnley Junction (55C).