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mick2me

Mansfield Road renumbered & Herbert Kilpin

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mick2me    2,962

Oh Dear

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DAVIDW    1,091

Oh well try again , good job that tab was still open !

Getting mixed up with street numbers !

Yesterday on a Facebook page ,read for the first time ,about Nottingham-born Herbert Kilpin , born in 1870 .

He moved to Italy to install or look after some lace machinery and whilst there , only went and founded the now mighty A.C. Milan football club !

Someone else that could have a film made of their life !

http://en.wikipedia..../Herbert_Kilpin

I had never heard of him before and don't think he has been listed as one of Nottinghams most famous but basically he was born 1870 at "129, Mansfield Rd" , son of Edward Kilpin , a butcher .

That 129, Mansfield Rd address remains constant as the Kilpins butchers address up until the 1891 Census .

But according to the 1901 Census , the Kilpins are now at 191 , Mansfield Rd .

Did they move premises or were the properties renumbered after 1891 and before 1901 ?

There are adverts for Kilpins butchers 191 Mansfield Rd right up to the 1940s .

The reason I think that there may have been some renumbering was that from an earlier advert from 1893 , an unconnected business was at 191 Mansfield Rd and that was described as being "opposite St Andrews Church" , when today that same number is plainly further down the road .

The reason I query it ,is that some A.C. Milan ardent fans are saying that what is now the Jaliso Mexican Restaurant at 129 Mansfield Rd is the birthplace of their founder .

If there was a renumbering and the Kilpins stayed in the same property the whole time , I think it maybe this (from streetview) rather delapidated property behind the bus shelter instead ?

Best Choice is number 193 and Royal Thai is number 189 .

Anyone with directories able to assist ?

As a footnote it didn't end well for Herbert , though he married an Italian and remained there , according to various sites he died a poor man . I have seen the Evening Post family notice about his death in 1916 and it says he suffered a long and painful illness .

13248443083_1c36a5eed1_c.jpg

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Cliff Ton    5,982

I was just about to say I hope DAVIDW can repeat his post because it's a very long and complicated one!

Sigh of relief.

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Cliff Ton    5,982

And after all that, my only contribution was to come up with this Directory from 1889 which confirms the address as 129 at that time.

kilpin.jpg

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Cliff Ton    5,982

Looks like Mansfield Road was renumbered. In the 1889 directory, there are two pubs listed which still exist today.

In 1889 the Golden Fleece is given as 41 Mansfield Road but it is now 105. A change of 64.

And in 1889 the Forest Tavern (now the Maze) is given as 195 but is now 257. A change of 62.

On the subject of Mr Kilpin and his butcher's shop, the difference from 191 to 129 is 62.

It fits.

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DAVIDW    1,091

Thanks Cliff ton ,

Your snippet of the 1889 directory in #8 also gives a clue .

After number 143 Mansfield Rd , it says "Harry Burgess tobacconist" , then "Packers Place".

Packers Place still exists today , its just a small passage way to the left of Hi Tech Computers , viewable on streetview .

Count down 7 or 8 properties down from there and you get to that dilapidated shop .

So the score is Nottsalgia 1 Italians 0

Hope they don't put a blue plaque up at the wrong place !

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DAVIDW    1,091

Blue arrow pointing to Packers Place , which is the entry under the crimson coloured building .

The orange arrow , points to what is probably now number 191 .

Prior to 1901 before renumbering , this would probably have been 129 Mansfield Rd.

13254221414_fdd69cbfda_b.jpg

Packers Place in the 70s , showing a tobacconists to the left , different owner but still the same trade as it was in 1889 !

13254159643_455bcd1db1_z.jpg

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Bubblewrap    3,662

Mansfield Road certainly was renumbered around 1895 when Melbourne Street was renamed Mansfield Road.

Melbourne Street ran from Shakespeare Street-Blue Coat Street/Charlotte Street Woodborough Road

Melbourne Street Numbers were West side 1 - 61

East side2 - 72

West court was between 37 & 39 Mansfield before renumbering.

101 & 103 Mansfield Road after renumbering

Information Kelly's directories 1891 & 1916

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DAVIDW    1,091

Thanks Andy for the info .

That makes sense , so in 1895 , 61 Melbourne Street would have become 61 Mansfield Rd and what was formerly Number 1 Mansfield Rd would have become 63 Mansfield Rd etc. etc.

I have searched the news archives about the renumbering but can't find a thing .

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Bubblewrap    3,662

But I think the re numbering was slightly differant on the eastern(even numbers)as some properties were demolished on the building of victoria station.

The Peacock Was number 11 Melbourne Street & it's still number 11 Mansfield Road

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Cliff Ton    5,982

I was in Nottingham today so grabbed a couple of photos of the relevant bits with today's numbering.

This restaurant Jalisco is officially number 129-131 (it has two doors)

mansrd2.jpg

And the Royal Thai is number 189, so - as mentioned earlier, the grotty blue thing is number 191 (see post #5)

mansrd1.jpg

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Bubblewrap    3,662

Just had a look at my directories again Numbers 2-12 Melborn Street must have Dissapeared when Victoria Station was built

But Number 14 Melbourne Street was The Mansfield Arms(public house) it became number 14 Mansfield Road(was so in 1916)

So there was no renumbering there

Of course wiht the building of York Houer & the demolition of the Nottingham Brewery the will be some renumbering there.

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Commo    911

Good interesting photos both old and new, thanks. I had forgotten that Gauntleys had a shop there as well as on High street, at the top of The Arcade, where I used to buy my Long Hollanders. Like most tobacconists, there was that wonderful scent in there and I can recall that now, even though I gave up the habit 25 years or more since

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DAVIDW    1,091

Thanks for the extra photos , great stuff . I thought someone would have done number 191 up by now . Would make a great souvenir shop for A.C. Milan !

Now I'm assuming I am right and the Jalisco definitely isn't the birthplace of Herbert Kilpin due to the re-numbering .

Because .......oh dear , oh dear , oh dear .......and this filmed within the last week or so !! Shall I tell them ?? Anyone speak Italian ??

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benjamin1945    8,911

I often visit number 203 Mansfield Road

10073154.jpg

I AM PRETTY SURE THAT 203 USED TO BE USED TO BE A NORTHERN DAIRIES SHOP CIRCA 1963,PART OF THE FARRANDS/MARSDENS SET UP,I WORKED THERE FOR SHORT TIME,THEY RECKONED IT WAS HAUNTED.

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Bubblewrap    3,662

Longs were still there in 1967

Just checked in my 1967 "Blairs" directory.

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DAVIDW    1,091

Just to complete the story , in the directories ,who occupied what is now the Jalisco (picture #13 ) restaurant ?

The premises now 129 and 131 after 1895 and previous to that date were probably numbers 67 and 69 .

In the news archives I can see mention of an Arthur Clark , Glass and China shop in 1886 for number 67.

Smiths tailors are mentioned in 1886 , at number 69 but in 1894 there is mention of Judges pork pies !

If that archway to the right of the restaurant was a public right of way that may pinpoint it too .

mansrd2.jpg

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Cliff Ton    5,982

If that archway to the right of the restaurant was a public right of way that may pinpoint it too .

I don't think it was. I think this is the one and it just goes to the back-yards.

alley.jpg

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DAVIDW    1,091

Thanks for the map CT .

In the 1911 Census , no 129 was Blundell stationers and newsagents and number 131 was Cresswells butchers .

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Bubblewrap    3,662

Just had a look at my directories again Numbers 2-12 Melborn Street must have Dissapeared when Victoria Station was built

But Number 14 Melbourne Street was The Mansfield Arms(public house) it became number 14 Mansfield Road(was so in 1916)

These properties on Melbourne Street/Mansfield Road were demolished for the building of Victoria Railway Station.

2) Furley & Co Wholesale Grocers

4) Coach & Horses Public House

MailCourt

6) Joseph Abbott Confectioner

8) Robert Eardley Pastrycook

Garden Court

10) John Holmes Brazier

Bear Court

Charles Clarke Bricklayer

Joseph Alvey Chimney Sweeper

Mrs Alice Wilkins Registered Lodging House

12) Albert Goode Hairdresser

Bran Court

Information Kelly's directory 1891

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Cliff Ton    5,982

And here's most of them. I've managed to cobble this from the Old Maps site which used to be good but is now a pain to deal with.

For modern day reference, the road coming in from the left is Shakespeare Street joining Mansfield Road (Melbourne Street).

melb.jpg

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