Anything Political

[DJ360 6,730]

I've not seen any news yet today, but based on yesterday...

 

It's interesting how the 'great' Russian state, was able to quickly identify Prighozin using DNA, and yet despite it's high levels of security, is unable to find the cause of the plane crash..

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

I presume he'll now be adding the name Lazarus to his call sign. I, for one, do not believe he's dead.

[DJ360 6,730]

I have no idea one way or the other, but killing Proghozin would be definitely a Putin response to events.

 

OTOH, Prighozin isn't, wasn't stupid and I doubt he'd easily fall into a trap.

 

And of course who are the other (9?) people killed?

 

Curioser and curiouser.....

[Brew 5,421]

That the plane was deliberately brought down is, in my mind, beyond doubt. The question is who by and why so close to Moscow?

It's straight out of Putins play book when dealing with recalcitrants, but also an excellent way to disappear.

 

Prighozin, if indeed he is/was responsible, would need a body if he faked his own death by  means other than instant cremation.

The rest, seven are identified by Aljazeera as Wagner higher ups, two pilots and a female fight attendant.

I don't suppose we will ever know for certain.

[Cliff Ton 10,470]

If it's true, I'm surprised by the apparent naivety of the Wagner people - all travelling in the same plane at the same time.

 

Basic security point No.1........don't put (fly) all your eggs in one basket.

[DJ360 6,730]

I'm also disgusted, but not surprised, whoever is responsible,  by the apparent indifference, to the (possibly innocent) civilian pilots and flight attendant.

[Jill Sparrow 10,307]

Life has always been cheap in Russia...and many other places.

[Brew 5,421]

In a discussion with DJ360 recently I was astonished at the claimed cost of almost 16 billion for the covid test and trace. I questioned my MP about the enormous amount of taxpayers money and today received this reply:

 

Thank you for contacting me about test and trace costs. 

I can confirm that the statistic you have seen about the NHS test and trace service costing £16bn a year is outdated and reflects the peak cost of the scheme at the height of the pandemic. Today, the cost of the scheme is far lower as it is primarily used to support NHS workers, patients and those in social care. This helps to keep our doctors and nurses healthy, and prevents patients from catching COVID-19 when they may be vulnerable,

According to the HM Treasury COVID-19 Cost Tracker update, published in July 2023, Test and Trace costs for 2022/2023 amounted to £1.16bn, and the Department for Health and Social Care spent just £12.3bn on all COVID-19 related services last year, including vaccines, medicine, research, ventilators and other costs relating to preventing, and treating patients with, COVID-19. 

Additionally, as we move on from the pandemic, 76% of all COVID-19 support measures, such as the furlough scheme and business support, have now closed, and others are progressively being phased out.

Thank you again for contacting me about this issue.

-------------------------------

 

Is the 'scheme' all covid related costs or just the T&T program I wonder? 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

This is a good point for me to jump back in I think Jim.  There are a couple of outstanding issues I wanted to reply on but I've been rather busy with domestic stuff.. (Not for here.)

 

Firstly, ( and correct me if I'm wrong..) I believe you live in the constituency of Amber Valley, which is currently the seat of Conservative MP Nigel Mills. A synopsis of his rather less than edifying political career here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Mills

 

Eitherway, whether I'm correct on the above or not.. the reply you received is clearly a somewhat 'selective' politician's answer, clearly designed to obfuscate, by minimising reference to 'peak' costs and associating much lower and more recent 'alleged' costs with notions of 'protection for NHS workers etc'.  All a bit cynical and oddly opaque, especially coming from a supposed accountant.

 

But here again, on the Parliamentary website,  

 

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accounts-committee/news/150988/unimaginable-cost-of-test-trace-failed-to-deliver-central-promise-of-averting-another-lockdown/

 

We see this headline:

Quote

In May last year (2020 sic) NHS Test and Trace (NHST&T) was set up with a budget of £22 billion. Since then it has been allocated £15 billion more: totalling £37 billion over two years.

 

That's £18.5Bn per year from May 2020 to March 2021 (Date of the Accounts Commitee Meeting), with presumably the other half covering a similar period 2021, to 2022.

 

'FullFact' which claims to work for honest information etc.. seem to agree with around £16Bn for each of the first two years.

 

https://fullfact.org/health/test-and-trace-37-billion/

 

Full fact also say that more detailed figures have been published and audited, but it's a bit harder to pin those down and in any case it's not really the point.  The point is, how wisely was the money spent?  How effective was T&T? How much went to 'consultants', how much did Harding et.al. get out of it?

 

More widely.. why were all those 'Nightingale' Hospitals built, when anyone 'in the know' could predict a lack of personnel to run and staff them?  And what happened to them, and the kit in them.. after they were dismantled, almost totally unused?

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

21 hours ago, Brew said:

Is the 'scheme' all covid related costs or just the T&T program I wonder? 

 

I think he's referring just to 'T&T. He doesn't detail the costs of 'Furlough', business support, Nightingale Hospitals etc. A VERY quick look came up with something around £70Bn for Furlough.

[Brew 5,421]

13 hours ago, DJ360 said:

More widely.. why were all those 'Nightingale' Hospitals built, when anyone 'in the know' could predict a lack of personnel to run and staff them?

 

Hard to criticise the construction of temporary hospitals, it's easy to say they were a waste but had the NHS needed them and were not built, the result could have been a tragedy of biblical proportions.

It's fairly clear those 'in the know' actually didn't, and like everyone else pontificating about mistakes made when tackling covid,  they're simply being wise after the event.

 

My mistake was imagining the cost was for an app and having some  (limited),  knowledge of programming found the cost beyond belief. Now I understand physical testing, the cost of the kits and the lab work are included goes some way to explain it. I hadn't thought it through.

 

Mills is a party hack and will whatever he's told (in my opinion). Mostly his replies talk down and say not a lot - much like all politicos really.

[Stuart.C 491]

Pandemics / natural / unnatural disasters are a loose loose for any Government as Labour will find out when in power.

 

Exactly the same critisims will come up whoever is in Government,

 

Wasn't prepared,

Acted too slowly,

Acted too quickly,

Ignored Expert advise,
Took advise from the wrong Experts,

Locked down too late,

Locked down too early,

Should not have locked down,

Spent too much money, a small proportion of which ended up with known persons instead of some of the miilions of scammers and con merchants around the World who were attempting to sell non existant PPE, ventilators etc.

Wasted too much money,

 

And just to note, I voted Conservative last time but will be voting Labour as Conservatives have been in too long,

Just as I will continue to vote Conservative in the City elections as Labour have been in control too long.

[Cliff Ton 10,470]

In recent times with Covid - but also other topics - the world is full of armchair experts who can tell us, in retrospect, where everything went wrong and what should've been done.

[philmayfield 6,145]

With hindsight even a fool is wise.

[Brew 5,421]

An aphorism politicians consistently prove to be false.

[DJ360 6,730]

Bit of a 'Round Robin'..

 

Even with hindsight lots of people refuse to see the facts. Trump's continuing hold on huge sections of the US

Republican vote is a clear example of that.

 

-Nightingale Hospitals. I must admit that the issue of staffing never occurred to me, but once you think that through, the Nightingales were a massive example of what can be achieved in a short time,  but were also an unworkable 'solution', which could never have had much impact. The 'authorities', on the other hand knew, or certainly should have known, that it was proving impossible to adequately staff existing hospitals and should have seen the issue.  Still.. a 'nice little earner' for whoever built them.

 

-I had little personal issue with Lockdown. Of course I was prevented from seeing family/grandkids etc., for a long while, ut that beat the hell out of an unknown fate as an old fart with 'underlying health issues', and before the vaccine. In fact I was already operating my own version of it long before that idiot Johnson stopped shaking hands with infected people. Those most vocal against Lockdown in my view , fell broadly into three camps. Those who chose to deny the existence, and the dangers, of the virus, those who saw their economic self -interest threatened and those who were just too selfish/stupid to see why they should be inconvenienced.

 

-As for preparedness. It's an established fact that quite apart from progressively running down the NHS over a decade, the Govt. had ignored numerous warnings and reports about 'Pandemic Preparedness'.

 

1 hour ago, Stuart.C said:

Spent too much money, a small proportion of which ended up with known persons instead of some of the miilions of scammers and con merchants around the World who were attempting to sell non existant PPE, ventilators etc.

Wasted too much money,

 

Of course, there will always be scammers, whoever is in power. However, a couple of observations.  It's clear that the Govt.s approach to 'fast track' tendering for whatever, favoured their 'friend of a friend' approach, which is one reason I'll never vote Conservative.

I thought 'furlough' was a good idea in principle.  On the other hand the raft of other 'Business Support' measures seems to have been poorly controlled and open to fraud.

 

Taking a wider view.. the Govt's response was in many ways driven by their ideology. One issue in particular always makes me smile... The Govt. funded much of their  'Profligacy/Generosity/Jobs for the Boys etc. *(Delete as applicable ) via Public Borrowing and.. whilst they always make much of Labour's alleged financial imprudence, the facts don't bear out their case and in fact they borrow heavily. I'm firmly of the view that they do so because, broadly speaking, Public Borrowing benefits the wealthy and is a detriment to the poor.  Why? Because for the wealthy, increased Public Borrowing represents an investment opportunity on the Bond Markets, whereas for the poor, Public Borrowing represents an additional burden, to be paid for via increased taxation, impoverished Public Services, lower Benefits etc.

[Brew 5,421]

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

Because for the wealthy, increased Public Borrowing represents an investment opportunity on the Bond Markets, whereas for the poor, Public Borrowing represents an additional burden, to be paid for via increased taxation, impoverished Public Services, lower Benefits etc.

 

And yet many moons ago you were suggesting Corbyn's outrageous spending plans could be financed through borrowing  

Why is Tory borrowing undesirable and somewhat unseemly, yet Labour borrowing is to be recommended and beneficial?

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

As for preparedness. It's an established fact that quite apart from progressively running down the NHS over a decade, the Govt. had ignored numerous warnings and reports about 'Pandemic Preparedness'.

 

Quite what (Pandemic Preparedness), means I'm not sure. I've heard many bleat about the government were not ready, were unprepared and caught by surprise when the pandemic hit. 

A huge swell of political and public opinion disparage HMG for being unprepared - without actually suggesting what they think should have been done or how we could have been ready.

 

Four (Flu type), pandemics have occurred in the last 100 years, in 1918, 1957, 1968 and 2009 - not one government was prepared .

That there will be another seems inevitable, vaccines will almost certainly not be available and take time to develop.

 

What the next one will be, where and when is anyone's guess, so how do the government prepare for it?

[DJ360 6,730]

On 8/22/2023 at 9:29 PM, Brew said:

Despite all the left wing rhetoric average Brits are enjoying the highest standard of living - ever!

Yes there are problems, many serious but when was there a time when that was not so?

No government will ever achieve a Utopian state.  The more we have, the more we want.

 

That pay fuels inflation is indisputable.

Huge pay rises for bosses though irritating and annoying are an irrelevance in the grand scheme of things.

Total the amount up, double it if you like, it will be a mere fraction of the recent £700 million pay demands from the NHS alone.

 

Then:

Post

Docks

Binmen

Teachers

Rail

Barristers 

Bus...the list goes on...

 

Jim, a number of points I've been meaning to respond to on the above.

 

1. Brits and highest standard of living.  The key here is the word 'Average'. An average is simply a formalised generalisation, and as we know, generalisations are always wrong. So, while many have seen their income and wealth increase hugely under the Tories, which of course pushes up the 'average', many more have seen a decline in their fortunes as a direct result of 'Neo Liberal' economic 'ideology'. Those in most need, those least able to fend for themselves etc.., for whatever reason, have generally come off worse.  It is no accident that we have working people reliant on Food Banks, or increasingly 'School Uniform Banks', etc., or having to choose between 'Heat or Eat', and all of that evident BEFORE, Truss and Quarteng tried to fully implement the Neo-Liberal 'dream'.

 

It is blatantly obvious that the Govt. rhetoric around creating a 'high skill, high wage economy' is pure Bull****. Everything they do mitigates against that objective and their reliance on 'Markets' to create 'Wealth', which will then automatically 'Trickle Down'..has been proven wrong time and again.. Neo-Liberal 'economics' is simply a convenient collection of ideas which purport to be for 'The Greatest Good For The Greatest Number', but just happen to also preserve and enhance the position of the already wealthy, as well as allowing Corporations to ignore, or even bring down National Governments.

 

It goes further.. Under Cameron in particular, the poor not only got poorer, but were actively victimised..classed as 'scroungers' and pushed further into poverty by Tory policies.

 

In places, it's becoming increasingly evident that life expectancy is falling.

 

And.. in an example I can personally attest to...  There were something over 6000 qualified Career Advisers in employment just before I 'retired'. Please note 'Qualified'. That is 99% Graduates, with at least a Post Grad Diploma in Career Guidance, and usually much more.  Salaries were never especially high, usually comparable to Local Govt. 'Officer'/ or 'Senior Officer' grade, which put them firmly below Teachers, for e.g., who were no more qualified... By comparison, there are roughly 500,000. full time equivalent teachers in 11-16 education, not counting Teaching assistants. That's 6000 Advisers responsible for providing access to qualified and independent Information Advice and Guidance, to the annual 'school leaver' population. Figures aren't easy to get at, but there are about 9 million pupils in total, so roughly 820,000 per year.

Careers advisers usually had at least some contact from year 9 on.. So that is responsibility for Advice and Guidance for years 9/10/and 11.. That's 2.4 million pupils, and not counting the roughly 50% who stayed in the school system to 18.

So thats 2,400,000 divided by 6000 = 400.  Which, oddly enough, is pretty much what my caseload was, except that it included additional work with 6th form leavers, unemployed, those in training and liaison with both employers and FE/HE institutions. And the annual buget for this 'extravagance? Around £250 million. In comparison to the budget for Education overall.. in Yr 2000.. at £46 Billion... 

Of course the imposition of Blunkett's 'Connexions Service', which doubled the budget and workforce, also basically buggered everything up.

 

A nice long read here if you can stand it.: https://infed.org/mobi/the-connexions-service-in-england/

 

Still, most of us enjoyed, and strongly believed in our work, at least until 'Connexions' We were first sidelined and diverted from what we were trained to do, by Labour's Blunkett..then stabbed in the back by Labour's Milburn, before being dismissed as 'unnecessary' by Gove, et.al. The result was that most of those 6000 highly qualified and committed Advisers were either put out of work, or were reduced to scrabbling around for short term contracts in privatised scams with narrow objectives. 

 

I could go on in much greater detail, but I'm not just whining about my loss.. The point is that you can multiply that 6000 by a factor of many, across all kinds of Public Service/Educational/Health/Environment/Child Development-support functions and see not only the waste of talent, but the loss of services to those who formerly benefitted.  And all for the sake of saving what amounts to financial 'chicken feed' compared to the money spent elsewhere, and the damage caused to the proper functioning of the economy, including the Education system and the Labour Market.

 

So when you say 'yes there are problems..' etc.., I appreciate the acknowledgement, but I'd prefer you placed the responsibility for those problems where it belongs. Blukett and Labour got Career Guidance and Youth Support wrong.. badly. But it was Gove who essentially abolished it...

 

Pay and Inflation.

 

Chicken and Egg.

 

It's very clear that recent inflation in the UK has been caused by three major factors.

 

1. Increased energy and other costs as a result of the Ukraine war.

2. Supply side issues resulting from Covid, Brexit and Govt. failure to increase UK productivity.

3. The disastrous effect of 'Trussonomics'.

 

So the question becomes.. what part of the above, is the fault of 'Yer average' worker.. and by extension..why should 'Yer average' worker be obliged to suffer to correct the problem?

 

When considering a solution to this conundrum, bear in mind that those salaries which Govt. directly controls, i.e. Public Sector Salaries.. have fallen in real terms (i.e. adjusted for inflation) considerably and consistently over that last decade, as a direct result of Govt. policy, derived from their Neo-Liberal ideology.

 

So again.. who is to blame?  Why should 'Yer Average' worker shoulder the burden?

 

 

[DJ360 6,730]

44 minutes ago, Brew said:

And yet many moons ago you were suggesting Corbyn's outrageous spending plans could be financed through borrowing  

Why is Tory borrowing undesirable and somewhat unseemly, yet Labour borrowing is to be recommended and beneficial?

Firstly because it is a Political, not an Economic judgement, as to whether Corbyn's plans were outrageous, or even as 'extreme' as hyped by the right wing press... (Have you forgotten the 'proposed spending wars' between Con and Lab just before the election, or the unseemly 'splurge', represented by Sunak's first budget?)

And secondly, the purpose of borrowing, and who ultimately benefits from the borrowed money, is another Political judgement.  I doubt you'd argue that Truss's judgement on that front was sound... but even the 'by comparison', judgement of Sunak as chancellor is very suspect, since little of that money seems to have reached those most in need.. yet they will repay it.

[DJ360 6,730]

39 minutes ago, Brew said:

Quite what (Pandemic Preparedness), means I'm not sure. I've heard many bleat about the government were not ready, were unprepared and caught by surprise when the pandemic hit. 

A huge swell of political and public opinion disparage HMG for being unprepared - without actually suggesting what they think should have been done or how we could have been ready.

 

Suggestions were made as  result of numerous 'Pandemic Preparedness ' exercises, possibly the best publicised being 'Operation Cygnus' in 2016. All were ignored.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59342607

 

From which:

 

Quote

The report suggests the government had some mitigations in place for a pandemic, like a stockpile of personal protective equipment, but it lacked preparation for "wide-ranging impacts" coronavirus and other pandemic-inducing viruses can have on society and the economy.

 

We saw very quickly how adequate the 'stockpile of PPE' really was...

[Brew 5,421]

9 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Have you forgotten the 'proposed spending wars' between Con and Lab just before the election

No, Corbyn won hands down...

The point is borrowing per se. It matters not who's doing it and who the beneficiaries are is moot. However whether government borrowing is good or bad depends upon the commentators political persuasion.

[DJ360 6,730]

16 minutes ago, Brew said:

However whether government borrowing is good or bad depends upon the commentators political persuasion.

 

Partly, that's true. If you want me to briefly use a 'household economy' example...

 

I can borrow to go off on a nice Gambling Spree in Monte Carlo.. while I leave my kids at home with no food or heating.  (See 'Trussonomics')

Or..

I can borrow to pay for home improvements, benefitting my whole family and improving the value of my home....

[DJ360 6,730]

Jeez.. Grant '4Names' Schapps appointed Defence Secretary....

 

Bring on the Spivonomics...  The shady world of defence procurement should suit 'Michael Green' down to the ground.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2015/mar/16/grant-shapps-business-mp-conservative-chairman-michael-green

[Brew 5,421]

15 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

We saw very quickly how adequate the 'stockpile of PPE' really was...

The Guardian and ITV investigated this and found the fault to be squarely with Movianto, the company contracted to distribute NHS PPE.

Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) said: “The pandemic influenza stockpile has always been readily deployable and it is entirely false to claim otherwise. 

 

The 'stockpile' was adequate, (I seem to remember the figure £500M (one billion items) in store). The American owned company were totally incompetent plus they were in the midst of being taken over (there were legal difficulties and court cases preventing progress), and no one seemed to know what to do. it took troops to go in and sort out the chaos. at one point, in the middle of the pandemic the site owners had to be legally prevented from locking the gates to the site. I did mention this when we last discussed it some time ago.

 

We can argue the rights and wrongs of the contract but we can hardly blame Boris for a break in the supply chain. 

[Brew 5,421]

52 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

best publicised being 'Operation Cygnus' in 2016. All were ignored.

Ah Cygnus, you mean the exercise where they recommended switching off the ventilators and closing all the intensive care units. Cygnus where letting people die would allow staff to be redeployed elsewhere and herd immunity was the best option... I'm rather pleased they were ignored!

 

Cygnus had four main points. Lack of resources will cause the NHS to collapse - it didn't.

Lack of facilities to bury the dead - didn't happen.

Lack of sufficient ventilators - partly true but quickly sorted

The worst finding, in my view, was the lack of cohesion between the different facilitators.

Then again I believe the whole of the NHS to be a total  shambles of an organisation