Anything Political

[DJ360 6,738]

35 minutes ago, Brew said:

Because of the link to the rise of the Fascists, antisemitism has been assumed to be a right-wing trait. However, it has always existed across both sides of the political spectrum and through all strata of society.

 

Yes, there's truth in that, but I'd argue that the Nazi approach was initially a classic 'bogeyman' tactic of the sort still used by the likes of Trump and Putin to 'create enemies', which only they can defeat. Where AS exists on the left, it's more about a perception of a so called 'conspiracy' of wealth.  Both expressions of AS are nonsense, but they are subtly different.

[DJ360 6,738]

44 minutes ago, Brew said:

BUT, not so long ago, the Equality and Human Rights Commission found  Labour committed unlawful acts in regard to antisemitism within the party during Corbyn’s leadership, highlighting the problem of antisemitism on the left.

I cannot say other than i believe Corbyn to be an antisemite.

 

The EHRC mostly found fault with the Labour Party's handling of allegations of AS.  It DID NOT, as Letsav keeps hinting, find the Labour Party to be AS.

 

You believe Corbyn is AS. I don't.  He's many things, but not AS.

[Brew 5,431]

2 hours ago, DJ360 said:

And yet they only started since the Genocide in Gaza began.  Who'd have thought...?

 

Genocide, such an emotive word, and only used in this instance by pro-Palestinian factions and  protestors to raise connotations of mass extermination in order to condemn Israel and the Jews.

Stange to say it's the same language and avowed declarations of Hamas, Fatah. Hezbollah and the PLO - but apparently no one should mention that in polite company.

The protests as far as I can see involve mass waving of Palestinian flags, jingoist support of the poor oppressed Palestinians and total condemnation of Israel. Nothing condemning those who are fighting this war by proxy i.e. the US and Iran, none condemning the atrocity of October. To class the protest as anything but racist is naive.

[Brew 5,431]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

 

The EHRC mostly found fault with the Labour Party's handling of allegations of AS.

Seems like splitting hairs.  find it difficult to separate the 'Labour Party' from Labours  'handling' of AS complaints.  The original complaints was raised in 2018, Corbyn paid little heed and for three years ignored it and even denied it.

T EHRC found evidence supporting it and declared there were unlawful acts by the party. Labour could have   appealed, but didn't.

 

Quote:

• “A clear breakdown of trust between the Labour Party, many of its members and the Jewish community”;
• A culture that is “at odds with the Labour Party’s commitment to zero-tolerance of antisemitism”;
• Serious failings in leadership, processes and culture in dealing with antisemitism within the Party;
• Specific examples of unlawful harassment and unlawful indirect discrimination;
• “Clear examples” of inappropriate political interference in individual antisemitism cases;
• “An inadequate process for handling antisemitism complaints” across our Party;
• Inadequate resourcing of the complaints process and poor record-keeping;
• A failure to deliver adequate training for all those responsible for investigating antisemitism cases; and
• Repeated failures to implement in full the recommendations of previous reports into antisemitism

Starmer acknowledged there was antisemitism within the party, blamed Corbyn and denied him the Labour whip. Corbyn is still persona non grata.

[Brew 5,431]

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

And it is precisely why it it imperative to get rid of the Tories, who are totally imbued in such thinking.

Whilst we are arguing about AS, Gaza, Migration, etc.. etc.., the dark 'neoliberal' forces continue their march towards a time when very few will actually own anything.  We will all rent whatever housing, transport, access to music, digital storage, and everything else they allow us to afford..from the cash/asset rich, who continue to increase their wealth exponentially to the detriment of the majority and with the complicity and encouragement of the Tories.

 

The supposed 5th richest country in the World, being systematically and deliberately impoverished by Right Wing totally amoral actors.

 

Is as fine a conspiracy theory as we will find in a long days march.

[Cliff Ton 10,497]

Re: the anti-semitic debate.

 

I think a lot of people confuse/conflate anti-semitic with anti-Israel.

 

It's possible to be one without being the other.

[Brew 5,431]

A fair point...

 

[letsavagoo 964]

7 hours ago, DJ360 said:

The EHRC mostly found fault with the Labour Party's handling of allegations of AS.  It DID NOT, as Letsav keeps hinting, find the Labour Party to be AS.

I believe under Corbyn’s leadership which was over 4 years, not the brief tenure you (DJ) say, antisemitism rose to disturbing levels and apparently so did the EHRC. I’m convinced as are many others that under Corbyn antisemitism was allowed to overtly flourish. I don’t think such allegations were a right wing or media plot to discredit Labour but genuine concerns of disturbing events. That is why I raised the question over your ‘false allegations’ of AS comment. 

I don’t think it currently to be the issue it was and I do NOT feel Labour to be AS. If I have given that impression it’s not correct. However their stance on not calling for a ceasefire in Gaza has cost them a seat. Starmer finds himself between a rock and a hard place. Although I don’t think the odd seat will bother him too much as the Tory’s are quite rightly doomed.

Quote.

In October 2020, the EHRC published its report, determining that the party was "responsible for unlawful acts of harassment and discrimination. 
 

 

[DJ360 6,738]

On 5/11/2024 at 3:17 PM, Brew said:

Genocide, such an emotive word, and only used in this instance by pro-Palestinian factions and  protestors to raise connotations of mass extermination in order to condemn Israel and the Jews.

 

And 35000+ dead, mostly innocent civilians, including thousands of Children..is an emotive phrase.

 

First of all, whilst I and many others condemn the actions of the Israeli State, not only with reference to the current genocide, but also in areas such as illegal settlements,  Israeli 'militia' attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank etc.. that categorically does not make us Anti Semitic. Does condemning the actions if Isis, the Taliban or Al Quaeda make us Islamophobic? Does condemning Irish Republican Terrorism make us 'anti Catholic'? You know it doesn't.

 

Quote

only used in this instance by pro-Palestinian factions and  protestors to raise connotations of mass extermination in order to condemn Israel and the Jews.

 

That statement is completely inccurate.  Firstly, I have heard many people condemn the actions of the Israeli State without condemning 'the Jews'.  To say it is only Palestinian factions and supporters is also completely inaccurate. Many individuals and states from around the World have condemned Israeli tactics . Even Biden has had to pause arms supplies to Israel and the UN is watching closely, though as ever..slow to act.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68667556

 

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=UN+Position+of+Gaza+Genocide&t=newext&atb=v356-1&ia=web

 

Furthermore, I have heard several representatives of the Israeli Govt and the IDF make clear statements to the effect that they will 'remove the Palestinians from Gaza'. That may not be quite the 'Official' Israeli Govt. line, but I've not heard anyone from Israel 'rowing back' on what some of their overt extremists have said. What does 'remove' mean.. when the Israelis will not allow Palestinians to leave?

 

I suppose I'll have to repeat again that I do not in any way support HAMAS or its actions.. but then I think it is entirely reasonable to query what the hell the Israeli Govt. and the IDF, were doing which allowed the October 'incursion' to take place with such ease?

 

 

 

[Brew 5,431]

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

That statement is completely inccurate.

 

Wrong, you missed my point. I'm referring, as stated, in this instance to the fact the term genocide is not and has not been levelled at Hamas - despite it being their avowed and declared intent to totally eradicate Israel. And yes if you reread, I did mention Israel and Jews as separate entities meaning condemnation can be attached to one or the other or both.

 

The' Israeli state' and 'the Jews' are to most interchangeable, and yes CT makes a good point but untangling who said what and what they actually mean is moot.

 

The links in your post only serve to prove my point that in the global media only Israel is having the charge of genocide levelled against them. 

Genocide, not a word in everyday use, nor is the word being used in its proper context, it is being bandied about purely to exaggerate an already appalling situation and bolster opinions. An inciting headline don't make it so.

 

Are we playing a number game? does the fact the IDF is killing more people than Hamas make them the bad guys? Are the innocents at Beeri you somehow forgot to acknowledge, acceptable losses and 35000 is not?

 

Quote from the Guardian Dec '23

 

"The only party to a declared intention to commit genocide is Hamas. 

Genocides don’t leaflet the populations they want to destroy with warnings to stay out of harm’s way, and Hamas, which Israel avowedly does want to see the back of, is not the Gazan people. For all the sensationalist pronouncements of academics who specialise in genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, settler-colonialism, etc, the words simply flutter like so many pennants...

 

 Nowhere have I seen reference to the 1988 Hamas declaration.

 

I'm surprised that someone who clearly sees covert 'dark neo-liberal forces' at play in other areas does not recognise the size of the organisation behind the protests or the ramifications of what may yet come from them. Nor do I see any mention of the fact that all three Arab wars were the direct result of Arab aggression.

 

You refer to the West Bank without pointing out it was NOT Palestinian, it was in fact run by Jordan, nor do you mention those  'Israeli 'militia' attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank etc' were retaliatory and only after provocation. 

 

The subject of who's right and who' wrong, who started it etc. will be long argued and I doubt any clear conclusion can be reached.

 

You clearly have sympathy for the Palestinians and their cause and I've not heard you agree Israel has a right to defend itself.

Personally, I'm firmly of the option that if, like Albert, you poke a lion with a horse's head handle, do not complain when it swallows you whole.

 

Biden is only worried that  Israel, by ignoring him, is showing the world that American influence is fading and they are no longer the worlds policeman.

 

4 hours ago, DJ360 said:

but then I think it is entirely reasonable to query what the hell the Israeli Govt. and the IDF, were doing which allowed the October 'incursion' to take place with such ease?

 

I really hope I've got this wrong and you're not really suggesting (for the second time), that a peaceful kibbutz with only token security is somehow to blame when it is attacked by tanks, armoured cars and thousands of troops.

That it was an open invitation and an own goal when Hamas launched an estimated 5000 rockets over the border at innocents who were simply enjoying their weekend.

 

[letsavagoo 964]

Greater Manchester Police have contacted Angela Rayner to arrange an interview under caution amid her ongoing council tax investigation