Wing Commander Guy Gibson

[firbeck 859]

Who was he, some of you will ask, well what with all this talk of the 2 Lancaster's and the Sunday flypast over the Derwent Dam, he was the man who led the Dambusters raid in 1943. So? Well I happen to be reading his biography while on holiday and getting near the end just now, read that exactly 70 years ago tonight at 10:30pm 19th September 1944 while returning from a pathfinding sortie over Germany, his Mosquito came down in flames over Holland and he and his navigator were killed, all they found of poor Guy was a hand and a charred sock. What has this got to do with Nottingham, well prior to forming 617 Squadron, Gibson was based at Syerston and spent a lot of time around the Nottingham pubs mainly The Trip, Flying Horse, known to aircrews as the'Airborne Nag', Exchange, Dog and Partridge, Lord Nelson, also the bar in the Black Boy where Gibson was 'friendly' with a barmaid. They used to also end up in the Palais to find the local 'talent'. He also tried to fly a Hampden from RAF Newton under a bridge on the Trent, I wonder which one that was.

There you have it, remember Guy Gibson this night, by coincidence the weather conditions and systems were almost identical 70 years ago as they have been today, how strange is that.

[MELTONSTILTON 452]

The link below is to Sergeant Richard Bolitho a Dambuster from Kimberley, who died on the raid in Lancaster AJ-B, he was also a distant uncle of mine, and still has relatives in the area..

http://www.dbolitho.co.uk/dambuster.html

[The Pianoman 1,535]

I once knew an F C Bolitho. He lived at Riddings. He informed me that Bolitho was an old Cornish name. Certainly not a common name round this neck o' the woods

[mercurydancer 1,104]

Thanks Firbeck.

Anyone who earned the VC is a great man by any definition.

[plantfit 7,597]

Thanks for reminding us of this,as you know Pete I worked on the old RAF Woodhall airfield where G P Gibson took off from on his final sortie,parts of the runway are still there and the Lincs wildlife trust are in the process of buying the old site and running it as a nature reserve,they want to preserve the old runways so that visitors to the site will have somewhere to sit and spend a bit of time in "Quiet reflection" as they put it, not sure if I took you down that runway Pete on your visit,I will get a picture of the remaining runway and post on here when I get time

Rog

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

Thanks for that Pete. The Dambusters was one of the first films I can remember watching.

Don't forget the chap that wrote the Dambusters March, Eric Coates, was from Hucknall.

[Rob.L 1,090]

Or that one of the RAF pilots who flew the Lancasters in the film spent the last ten years or so of his life living on Rectory Road, West Bridgford.

[Smiffy49 590]

I live within a short walk of the site of a former WW11 Lincolnshire airfield (Wellingore) and often go down there with my dog.

The edge of the site is bordered by a "green lane" known as Ermine Street or some times "High Dyke"

It is very atmospheric place, in particular at dusk during these misty Autumn days.

The airfield is long gone, but although it is now part of an arable farm you can still imagine what the area was like in those days.

Looking into the history of the place I managed to turn up the following information.

Wing Commander Guy Gibson lived in nearby Navenby village with his young wife.

It was at Wellingore, while flying a Bristol Beaufighter night fighter with 29 squadron that he shot down his first enemy bomber,

a Heinkel-111 off the coast of Skegness on 12th March 1941.

Gibson spent his wedding night at the Lion & Royal pub in Navenby.

His crew apparently clubbed together to buy the couple a whole fresh salmon as a wedding gift.

The delight turned to surprise when the pub kitchen prepared it for their supper.

They cleaned, deboned and battered it, serving it up with chips!

I have also heard that he once lived at the pub in Wellingore for a period, but I don't know which one.

Smiffy

[Compo 10,328]

My father was based at RAF Woodhall for a while during WWII. Not sure of the dates though..

[plantfit 7,597]

There is a book out all about RAF Woodhall called "Into thin air" might be difficult to get hold of as it's out of print but you never know, it covers all aspects of the airfield,just down the road from the old airfield is Thorpe camp,part of the communal area of the site,a lot of restored nissen huts full of interesting bit and bobs,I think they have a website but if you need any info or if they've got a information sheet out let me know and I'll nip round and see what I can come up with,

Rog

[firbeck 859]

Gibsons wife was not young, she was a flighty actress nearly 10 years older than him, wanting the parties and good life in London. There was much tension between them resulting in the pair of them seeking relationships elsewhere, particularly Gibson, whose character in many respects was very dark. I came across a very interesting story with regard to Gibson following a chance meeting with someone on Saturday in Norfolk, when BT get my Internet sorted ( and what a tale of woe that is ), I'll relate it, I'm writing this on my I phone and it's doing my head in with this tiny keyboard.

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

You're getting old Pete. (same as me).

[mercurydancer 1,104]

Firbeck, keep on with the Gibson thread. I find it fascinating as its not about the heroics its about the man.

[mercurydancer 1,104]

There is some speculation that Gibson was shot down by a British bomber rear gunner. There is some evidence but its unconvincing.

Another theory is that it was a fuel error, in that Gibson couldn't transfer fuel from one tank to another fast enough and couldnt supply the engines with fuel.

Also, at this date, 19 September 1944, there was a very major battle going off in another part of Holland that wasnt that far away - Operation Market Garden and the battle for Arnhem.

[plantfit 7,597]

Just got back from a private tour of the Dambusters heritage museum at RAF Scampton,full of 617 (Dambusters) squadron information, the part about Gibson running out of fuel because he couldn't transfer fuel from one tank to another quick enough,seems to be the general opinion of staff at Scampton he was not familiar with flying the Mosquito and had managed very few flying hours since being grounded following the Dams raid,news of his death was not made public for about 6 months as "Bomber Harris" didn't want the news to be public because of potential impact on the countries morale plus he was under strict orders not to fly from Harris himself

Rog

[mercurydancer 1,104]

Rog

The Mossie that he flew was not his "regular" plane as he took a Mosquito from I think Coningsby as his regular plane was unserviceable. The variant Gibson used was a Canadian pattern with the fuel switches in a different place to the regular version.

[The Pianoman 1,535]

It was a Canadian built B.XX. It was 627 Squadrons own aeroplane registered KB267, squadron codes AZ-E. His navigator was Squadron Leader J B Warwick. The information I have says that 'they lost their lives' in that aeroplane. For whatever reason, possibly already covered in this thread, it doesn't say how they lost their lives.

[mercurydancer 1,104]

Thanks for all the posters.

I think there is a genuine source of historical interest here, especially when pete mentions Gibson's "dark side" .

Certainly the ground crews disliked him immensely, to the point of despising him. Gibson had many run ins with NCOs and seems to have been an insufferable snob. Probably his arrogance meant that he was extremely brave.

It compares markedly with Leonard Cheshire, also a VC, but very modest indeed.

[Compo 10,328]

I had a book on Guy Gibson. Alas, I have forgotten the title but it made the point that Gibson would not tolerate ORs mixing with Officers. According to the book, he was an arrogant, self centrered class system supporter.

[firbeck 859]

Sorry, thanks to the incompetence of BT my phone lines keep going down, as does the Internet, so I keep losing this, it's hopeless trying to write a long article on my I- phone keypad, so here I go again, attempting to use my PC. Meanwhile I've read some of your recent comments which are very interesting and bare out facts that I've read, here are my thoughts and my little story from Saturday, unless I crash again.

Guy Gibson was privileged, he was born in India to wealthy parents, his mother was young compared to his father, there were tensions between them, she became an alcoholic, he was a distant father full of his own self importance and they eventually split up. Gibson was raised in the superior Raj system, Indian doting servants, nannies, the wealth, the political influence, everything that went to create a superior being.

Eventually Gibson was sent back to England to a public school, St Edwards in Oxford. This school taught class superiority, religious fervour, sport and supported strict idealistic discipline with many beatings, just the sort of place you'd not want to send your kids to. Douglas Bader came from the same Indian background and attended the same public school, he too was a snobby, irascible, character, but, unlike Gibson, like or loathe Bader, he was a natural pilot and a true leader of men, Gibson wasn't any of these things. Eventually Gibson joined the RAF and learnt to fly, his privileged background ensured him a commission of course, his flying skills and general qualities were, however, classed as average. He progressed to a Hampden bomber unit and carried out some of the early wartime raids, then transferred to night fighters, starting with Blenheim's then switching to Beaufighters, he only attained 3 kills, not what the legends would have us know. Eventually he ended up flying Manchesters then Lancasters out of Syerston, this is when his contempt for NCO groundcrew and even aircrew came to the fore. He would pick faults with sergeant pilots that were non existant, even his fellow officers didn't agree with this, but he formed a close inner circle of like minded public schoolboy friends and that made things acceptable to him. AVM Harris noted him down as one of his 'Boys' as you have already intimated in some of your postings, he actually had a death wish and was simply a daredevil pilot, willing to put all at risk.

He was chosen to lead 617 Squadron, following the dams mission, yes, Harris banned him from flying, it was thought that if he was shot down and captured by the Germans, he would be treated as a trophy and a war criminal, humiliated and subsequently shot. This attitude understandably upset Gibson who wanted action. At this point Churchill appeared in the frame, he saw Gibson as one of his 'Boys' and wanted to use his fame to Churchill's advantage. At the time, the American public did not support carpet bombing of German cities and the Canadian government were peed off at the lack of publicity given to their boys by the RAF and British media, of the Dambusters mission aircrew, 29 were Canadian, 2 of which were in Gibsons aircraft, 13 were killed, but nothing at the time was mentioned of this. Churchill saw Gibson as an ideal diplomatic tool and took him off to Canada and the USA for a lecture tour as a weapon for appeasement. The entire entourage left the UK on board the Queen Mary in August 1943, Churchills group consisted of 200 people, including Clementine, daughter Mary, Lord Mountbatten, the heads of military staff, Sir Anthony Eden, and Wing Commander Guy Gibson, who apparently got friendly with Mary Churchill on the voyage. More of this on a different perspective later.

On returning from this exhausting tour, Gibson was then ordered to write a book of his exploits, if you've not read it 'Enemy Coast Ahead', much conjecture as to whether he wrote it himself given his alleged poor grasp of English, I suspect that Roald Dahl had a lot to do with it along with government censors.

Gibson then got transferred to the pathfinder unit at Woodhall Spa, in a non flying capacity only. On entering the mess for the first time he was ignored, peed off at this he grandly announced himself to the aircrew at the bar, " Don't you know who I am, I'm Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC" Imagine the reaction, he was taken outside and debagged, then taken inside and offered a beer, he wasn't impressed and stormed out, he was banned from the bar and mess afterwards.

Yes, Gibsons experience on Mosquito's was limited, the first aircraft he tried on the final mission, he simply didn't like, there was nothing wrong with it, another aircrew used it on the mission and had no problems at all with it, Gibson being fussy, fastidious and possibly superstitious, who knows.

Now to my little story. My Lizzies co director and good friend Ellen was given a friends caravan near Yarmouth to use last weekend, we arranged for them to come and meet up with us as we left the cottage in order to take them up to see the seal colony on the beach at Horsey. Now Ellen is a very glam mid 30's with two very young children, her mother, who came with her, is a very good semi professional wildlife photographer I would suggest in age about 70. Ellens father is much older, he's 90 and a former Spitfire pilot during the latter stages of WW2.

We were having lunch at the Winterton Beach cafe, how we got on to the subject, I don't know, but Ellen said her father preferred flying the Hurricane to the Spitfire, he found it a much more less demanding aircraft to fly. At which point Liz said " Pete's had his nose stuck in a book about Guy Gibson the past few days"

Ellens mum said, "Oh yes, the man who carried out the Dambusters raid, being a fighter pilot, I doubt whether my husband ever met him, but he did have a chat to Winston Churchill on a ship"

"Really, don't tell me, August 1943, Queen Mary?"

" That's right, how did you know, my husband was sent off to pilot training in Canada, he was sent off on board Queen Mary, Winston Churchill and a lot of famous people were on board. He was given a Browning pistol, never having fired a gun before, and ordered to patrol the decks. In the early hours of one morning, while on patrol, he came round a corner and found Churchill standing alone at the rail in his dressing gown smoking a cigar. Churchill beckoned him over and quizzed him, the usual, "Guard me well young man". Apparently after that her husband got very friendly with Churchill's daughter Mary, as for the rest, he's desperate to borrow my book. As far as Gibson is concerned, he never bothered to lower himself to talk to these up and coming aircrew, how sad is that. I'll continue when I get more from Ellen's dad.

[firbeck 859]

Incidentally, when Gibson paid a visit back to 617 Squadron when the lovely Leonard Cheshire was in charge, Cheshire, summing up the man, gracefully kept out the way while Gibson draped himself around the mess, it says a lot about the pair of them.

[firbeck 859]

Well, this thread died a death didn't it, just like the man himself. The Mosquito he flew was not Canadian built, the inexperience of both Gibson and his navigator on type contributed to their deaths, I think the quote from Barnes Wallis on hearing of Gibsons death summed it all up:-

''As in the case of Gibson,'' he reflected, ''Men of a certain type will only become miserable if they are condemned to inaction, and their fate really lies in their own hands,''

Enough said.

[Bilbraborn 1,594]

Never having known him (obviously) I could never pass an opinion except that like other air crew from the war, very brave man.

[Smiffy49 590]

Firbeck, this thread has been excellent, containing interesting detail and facts you would not normally know about.

If you uncover anything else please post it on here, I would love to hear about it.

Smiffy

[Trevor S 2,003]

Firbeck, I can only echo the comments of Smiffy49.

Your posts, as well of other Nottstalgians on Gibson et al have been very interesting.....just keep them coming, please?