DJ360 6,733 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Apart from charging considerations, we have barely begun tearing up the planet, and the ocean floors, in search of the metals needed to make all of those batteries. In tyhe end, we will all either choose to drive less, or be forced to do so by planetary catastrophe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 I only stop on a motorway if it’s a very long journey or I need to visit the ‘comfort station’. I like to press on. I don’t want to sit and wait whilst the battery charges and eat an indifferent meal. I’m sure I’m not representative of the ‘average’ person though! All the Tesla’s we see are probably company vehicles financed on pcp. Until electric cars are properly mainstream, it’s not worth investing your hard earned cash in one. Do people in fact buy new cars outright now? Even with our present cars I was talked out of cash deals and was offered interest free HP. My present car, in fact, didn’t cost me a bean. I swapped my F Type for an ex Merc head office car with only 1000 miles on the clock. It was an enormous discount! They even paid me back £1,000 so I bought an electric bike! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Manufacturers have long ago reached an agreement for charger connections so why not go one stage further and agree on a design for the batteries, make them 'plug n play'? When they become interchangeable between vehicles service stations could setup 'swap shops', like a car wash but swap batteries in a few minutes for freshly charged units No need for expensive home chargers, no need to rip up streets, journey times greatly reduced and service stations could meet the need of dozens of vehicles rather than just a few taking hours to charge. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 That can only be when they can pack all the energy into a much smaller and lighter battery. Technology’s moving fast but that will be some years hence I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 Not at all the shape and placement of the Tesla battery is a good example. The battery fits in the floor pan and Tesla claim they change it in under four minutes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 My old Crown Vic probably last car I'll ever own. No interest in electric. Don't have an extension cord long enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Beekay 5,180 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Brew said: Not at all the shape and placement of the Tesla battery is a good example. The battery fits in the floor pan and Tesla claim they change it in under four minutes. Bet any one of the F1 pit stop crews could change it in under 30 seconds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 I can’t see it happening. The logistics of storing and moving heavy batteries on a filling station site wouldn’t be feasible. It’s not like offloading fuel into an underground tank. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 We have had issues here with battery fires. Seems like the technology needs a lot more work before it can ever become safely mainstream. I'm glad to have lived through the days of the gas powered engine. It has given me a lot of pleasure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, philmayfield said: I can’t see it happening. I don't suppose it will anytime soon but when manufacturers need to move and install heavy equipment they build a machine to do it. The battery for the Leaf is less than a foot square, maybe six inch tall and weighs 9kgs so maybe not as big as you imagine... The downside is the enormous number required to start it all but once established and recycling got under way on an industrial scale... Another point, if exchange was as simple as filling with petrol then there would be no need for monster batteries to increase range, smaller batteries - more efficient - less cost- less weight - faster to recharge.... win win! I think I could make a good business case for it! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 What's to stop someone taking a good relatively new battery out of your car and putting in an older unit with more miles on it in its place? We all know how honest everyone is these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 The battery does not belong to the car owner, you only pay for what you use. There's no difference doing 100 miles on an old battery than a new one. The is no perfect system as you know but the vast majority of large enterprises in this digital age can't afford to screw it's customers - we leave that to the government... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,733 Posted November 30, 2021 Report Share Posted November 30, 2021 I like Brew's basic idea. I see no reason why the battery 'compartment' for cars cannot be standardised and made accessible. Or maybe several different battery sizes for varying sizes of vehicle..or even a standard battery with assorted multiples in different vehicles. I could even imagine, say 2x 12V batteries in parallel for reasonable performance and range in a light vehicle, v 2x12 v in series to give 24v, higher performance but less mileage.. or whatever. The permutations are endless... but more capable electronics bods could work that out. I could see the battery being slid into the car and engaging with contacts in much the same way that a phone or camera battery does. We have already standardised fuel filler pumps, nozzles and caps. So why not battery change systems? Also, once a stock of batteries is in place at a service station, they would be charged on site. They would only need to be lifted into and out of vehicles and into some sort of 'charging rack'. With efficient systems it needn't take any longer than filling up. Once batteries lose their efficiency they go off to some re-cycling/remanufacturing plant and get made into new ones. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: Once batteries lose their efficiency they go off to some re-cycling/remanufacturing plant and get made into new ones. By George he's got it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 I am no authority on this but I think electric vehicles operate on voltages much higher than 12v. More like 600v and more. And they are often very big packed into the floor pan area and weighing several hundred kilos. Removing them currently (no pun intended) is a time consuming job as they’re well integrated into the vehicle structure and potential dangerous. It’s not a case of pulling out a couple of cells and slipping in new ones in 2 minutes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 The idea of battery exchange stations ignores the fact that most people will charge at home or streetside and that this will be more than adequate for the needs of the majority. In addition battery technology is rapidly advancing and charging times and storage volumes will improve. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 2 hours ago, letsavagoo said: Removing them currently (no pun intended) is a time consuming job as they’re well integrated into the vehicle structure and potential dangerous. It’s not a case of pulling out a couple of cells and slipping in new ones in 2 minutes. True but that is because they are not designed to be removed at the moment. Manufacture cars on a modular system could make batteries easily removable. Tesla as I've mentioned can drop the battery in a few minutes and they have the biggest battery units currently fitted to cars - they weigh around 1200lbs. Voltage (400 - 600 volts) and again the modular system comes into play. They are not single units like the one that starts a car, each battery is a 'pack'. Tesla has around 6000 individual 18650 style batteries (each is a little larger than a typical AA cell) each pack is divided into 16 modules. Adding or subtracting modules means there are any number of voltage variations possible. 2 hours ago, philmayfield said: The idea of battery exchange stations ignores the fact that most people will charge at home or streetside and that this will be more than adequate for the needs of the majority. In addition battery technology is rapidly advancing and charging times and storage volumes will improve. It doesn't ignore the fact at all, it removes the need all together and the rapid advance in technology you mention makes swap shops an even more attractive proposition. Home chargers cost around £400-500 per and draw around 7kW, that can be a bit of a problem when there is a multitude of two and three car homes. We have two, my neighbour has five! Roadside charging is not going to be easy for the hundreds of thousands living in terraced houses and apartments. Does anyone really want to sit in the car for an hour or so waiting at a street-side charge point? or will they risk leaving and coming back later not knowing what they will find? The cost of installing public charge points nationwide is going to be enormous and will be reflected in the price users pay. An extension or addition to a filling station, even a purpose built unit will be far less We don't fill our cars with petrol at the roadside we go to purpose built facilities, why should battery charging be any different? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 I'm sure by 2030 an improved charging infrastructure or an alternative means of powering vehicles will be developed. I can't imagine battery swapping will be involved, that's too low tech. I won't be bothering about it by then anyway! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 16 hours ago, Brew said: The battery does not belong to the car owner, you only pay for what you use. There's no difference doing 100 miles on an old battery than a new one. The is no perfect system as you know but the vast majority of large enterprises in this digital age can't afford to screw it's customers - we leave that to the government... Beginning to sound a bit New World Orderish. Maybe we won't even be allowed to own the car, just pay as you use one and you won't even get to do that if you have a low social credit score. "You will own nothing, and you wil be happy!" No thanks! Beam me up Scotty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 Another problem will be where to find the non-CO2 generating power source to run all the electric vehicles. Nuclear, wind, wave, biomass? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 1 hour ago, loppylugs said: Beginning to sound a bit New World Orderish. Maybe we won't even be allowed to own the car, It is only in recent months we have been allowed to own the battery on a Renault Leaf car, previously it had to be leased for a monthly fee (around £40) and still pay for the charge. The move away from personal transport is already underway, maybe not in our lifetime but it will come eventually whether we like it or not. The level of traffic control grows year on year both to contain the amount of cars and pollution. Some cities restrict access by reg number, even one day odd the next. A lot charge exorbitant fees just to enter the city limits and in certain parts vehicles are totally banned by pedestrianisation. Many don't agree with it but it will happen none the less. The days of the sixties when we virtually drove where we liked, how we liked and parked where we liked are long gone. Today we accept without question a degree of control unthinkable back then. In London it's far more cost effective to use taxis than drive a car. Pay per mile is often mooted here and over there you have toll roads i.e, pay per use which is just the same. We pay for petrol... we pay for what we use, I see no difference. ------------------------------------- Where we get the juice from is a whole different topic and I'm at a loss why people consider Bio-mass as carbon neutral or non CO2 generating - it's not. Stupidly we maneuvered ourselves into almost total dependency on foreign nations for out energy needs. Since Brexit we are even more vulnerable. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 Renault Leaf? Nissan surely. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Pianoman 1,535 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 Nissan own Renault - Mitsubishi also have an interest Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,187 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 I know, but I’m not aware of a Renault Leaf. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,423 Posted December 1, 2021 Report Share Posted December 1, 2021 Apologies - the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe... both leased the battery, then it became an option now you can only buy the battery but the price of the car increased by £5000 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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