Anything Political

[DJ360 6,733]

2 hours ago, catfan said:

But Boris got Brexit done, Yes ?

 

Well.. if you don't count the £350M per week for the NHS, the 'Oven Ready Deal', The Unicorns, Rainbows, Sunlit Uplands, Full Restoration of the Empire, and all the other tripe that was promised.

And if you close your eyes to the erosion of worker's rights, individual freedoms and erosion of the powers of Parliament, the extra costs, the damage to the economy and to trade and to our industrial base.

And as for the benefits.... remind me again.. what were they exactly..?

[catfan 14,793]

How different would a labour govt have handled things ? Remembering hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[philmayfield 6,193]

As they are mainly political idealists I doubt they would have the management skills to run the country. Having said that I think the present lot are only marginally better. Clever people can get better rewards in industry and the professions.

[DJ360 6,733]

2 hours ago, catfan said:

How different would a labour govt have handled things ? Remembering hindsight is a wonderful thing.

What things? Brexit? Well under a Labour Govt. we wouldn't have had the Referendum so the issue wouldn't arise. Labour haven't been in power for 10 years. The Tories own ALL of our current mess.

 

[DJ360 6,733]

2 hours ago, philmayfield said:

As they are mainly political idealists I doubt they would have the management skills to run the country. Having said that I think the present lot are only marginally better. Clever people can get better rewards in industry and the professions.

If you unpick all that Phil..you are making a very wide set of assumptions.

 

Firstly.. the 'management skills to run the country' mostly reside with the Civil Service, which interprets Govt policy...and those professions, such as Police..Armed Forces.. etc., etc., which do the actual running. Idiots like Gavin Williamson, Priti Patel, and the rest do not actually 'run' anything.. they just issue edicts and get all tetchy when they find out that it's not quite as simple as they thought...

Secondly... The incompetence of the Tories is self evident. They have utterly failed to deliver the Brexit that they promised, and they continue to be a minimum of two weeks behind the curve, every time, on changes to the Covid response.  The Scientists tell them something is needed NOW.. and they prevaricate for a minimm of two weeks and then finally do what they were told needed to be done in the first place.

Why?  Because they are Tories and they simply cannot compute when a social/health priority 'trumps' their perception of an economic priority.  They see the economy in the short term... they cannot grasp that what they are doing is creating long term damage to the economy and STILL failing to deal with Covid.  They need to get a grip or get out.

Quote

As they are mainly political idealists

Whoa!!!  The biggest political ideal of the last few years was Brexit..a Tory project through and through.. and one which they failed to deliver in anything resembling the form which they advertised. Nobody on the left, or in the Remain camp is remotely surprised because everything which we said, and which they labelled 'project fear'.. has come to pass. So.. even in 'delivering' Brexit.. they have failed.

 

So..having established that Political Idealism isn't just the domain of the left...I'll argue that it isn't even the domain of most of the left.  Most of the UK 'Left', including the 'Labour Left'..recognises that we live in a Capitalist World. What the 'left' wants is a more constrained version of Capitalism..with the worst excesses..(example.. Tory 'Outsourcing chicanery and blatant theft of public funds) legislated against.

We want equality of opportunity.. in education, in employment etc. Face it Johnson is where he is because of privelege and wealth..he certainly isn't there by dint of talent.

We want to stop the legalisation of serious Tax Avoidance. (Which is what Brexit was REALLY about.)

We want to stop the system of victim blaming..in which those who didn't get a decent education, or decent employment, are blamed for being poor and then sanctioned by the benefits system.

We want much more even public investment in ALL regions of the UK. Not just the South East

We want to stop the continuing destruction of Green Field sites for housing, until all Brown Field sites are restored to habitability by those business interests which ruined them in the first place.

We want to stop the lunacy of selling off our industry and our utilities to foreign companies which are ultimately owned by foreign govts.

We want to stop the 'built in' legal protection of the crooks who allowed Grenfell to happen..and who continue to block reparations and the removal of similar cladding elsewhere.

Need I go on?

Is there anything here which is objectionable to any reasonable person?

 

[philmayfield 6,193]

Well at least I've given Col something to vent his spleen on! I stand by what I said though 

[PeverilPeril 3,289]

Didn't the General election prove that Labour voters were in favour of Brexit? And by the same token that Tory voters were mainly stayers?

Do the party leaders actually represent those that voted for them?

[DJ360 6,733]

2 hours ago, philmayfield said:

I stand by what I said though 

Yebbut.. I win.. because I provided reasoned argument and evidence to refute your statement.

 

In response, you have simply re-asserted your statement...again, without supporting argument or evidence.

[philmayfield 6,193]

We live in a capitalist system. It will be thus for the foreseeable future. The the majority of people in this country are middle of the road politically, not lefties. I still contend that to run a country you’ve got to have experience  in the world of business and commerce. Lefties don’t run businesses, they don’t understand about being entrepreneurial, they just ramble on and snipe at those in power and at those they work for. The problem with the present lot is that few have proper business experience, the labour party even less. Business and the profit motif provides the wealth of the nation.

[DJ360 6,733]

1 hour ago, PeverilPeril said:

Didn't the General election prove that Labour voters were in favour of Brexit? And by the same token that Tory voters were mainly stayers?

Do the party leaders actually represent those that voted for them?

 

From my perspective, the election proved that if you tell a big enough lie and repeat it often enough, people will eventually believe it. The UK electorate have been systematically and relentlessly lied to about the EU since before we joined. The 'Leave' campaign used very simple and proven far right tactics of scapegoating and sustained misinformation to persuade the majority to act against their own interests.

The EU was presented as the 'bogeyman', responsible for everything from shortage of hospital beds, to unemplyment, to overcrowded schools and failing industry. Everything was the EU's fault. This is classic Scapegoating, which seeks to not only excuse or disguise the failings of those who propagate it, but also to provide a simple 'solution' for those who vote as demanded.  It is not only easy to demonstrate that most accusations against the EU were untrue, but also that the supposed benefits (insofar as they were even stated..which was 'barely'), have not and will not accrue.

Of course it is also true that whilst I believe Corbyn is a fundamentaly decent and caring man..his leadership and strategy over Brexit was a disaster. He didn't provide anywhere for the 'Remain' campaign to rally to. Add to that the very effective campaign of lies, half truths etc., which the right,supported as ever by the far right gutter press, maintained throughout.

All of the above made it easier for Johnson to promise the Earth to those in the so called 'Red Wall' labour seats..where 'yer classic' British voter amnesia failed to recall that most of their woes were down to successive Tory neglect in general and specifically brutal 'Austerity' in particular. It is already evident that those promises will b broken and Covid has provided Johnson with a perfect excuse.

I'm strugglng with the idea that 'Tory voters were mainly 'stayers', but I'd be interested in your source.

[philmayfield 6,193]

I voted Conservative. I voted to remain. I believe in democracy and accepted the decision. 

[DJ360 6,733]

46 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

I voted Conservative. I voted to remain. I believe in democracy and accepted the decision. 

I wouldn't argue with any of the above.

 

1 hour ago, philmayfield said:

We live in a capitalist system. It will be thus for the foreseeable future. The the majority of people in this country are middle of the road politically, not lefties. I still contend that to run a country you’ve got to have experience  in the world of business and commerce. Lefties don’t run businesses, they don’t understand about being entrepreneurial, they just ramble on and snipe at those in power and at those they work for. The problem with the present lot is that few have proper business experience, the labour party even less. Business and the profit motif provides the wealth of the nation.

 

You seem to have a problem with 'Lefties'.. yet it was 'lefties' who brought you the NHS, Trade Unions' (The good and the bad), Universal Suffrage, Workers rights and protections, Welfare, Freedom of Speech, Universal Free Education and countless other benefits which were fought against 'tooth and nail' by those who wanted to be allowed to operate business without any regulation and 'The Devil Take The Hindmost'.

 

Your definition of 'Lefties' seems vague, but I think I've shown countless times on here that I am a democratic socialist who simply believes that Capitalism must be regulated to provide for a fair society.  This is not revolutionary thinking.. it was perfectly normal here until Thatcher encouraged selfishness and greed in place of cooperation and fairness. I'd agree that most voters..including 'traditional' Labour voters are fairly middle of the road in their politics, but I think a simple poll would also reveal a huge groundswell of support for the fundamental principles of fairness as represented by the list of universal rights in my top paragraph.

 

I simply do not accept that a bunch of toffs such as Johnson has gathered around him are qualified in any way to run a corner shop... much less a country. Whilst the country obviously needs to 'pay its way'.. it also has to provide for a fair and equitable society. This latter is of zero interest to the current Govt.   The shambolic enactment of Brexit and the tardy, confused and ultimately deadly approach to Covid clearly demonstrate this. I'd go further and say that these people.. with the possible exception of Sunak..... and I have my doubts about him.. do not even represent traditional Conservative thinking. They are, quite simply, a collection of crooks, liars and opportunists, whose main preoccupation is with stripping the country and the public purse of every penny they can get their hands on. They have been doing this since Thatcher and they get bolder each time they lie their way into power. Gove is a Bona Fide idiot who has a knack of sounding superficially authoritative, but has failed in every cabinet post.  Williamson is a child.. and a petulant one at that.  Patel?  Least said I think. Johnson himself is a liar, a cheat, and a confused/baffled/ indecisive leader with an extremely misplaced 'Churchill Complex' and a record of failure/dismissal in all previous employment.

 

If these 'business qualified' idiots were in any way competent, they would start by renationalising all of our infrastructure, health services, waste disposal, transport, energy supply/generation etc., etc.. which they have sold off to foreign interests (often owned by Foreign Govts.) for Thirty Pieces of Silver.  That.. would demostrate far more patriotism than the sham 'Little Englander' idiocy they have demostrated through their disastrous Brexit. But of course despite their protestations.they are not even remotely patriots.  The fact that the likes of Johnson's equally unsavoury father has applied for French citizenships says it all. These crooks are motivated purely and entirely by self interest and will happily ruin out country if it benefits them.

[philmayfield 6,193]

Like I said before, lefties just ramble on and gripe. The trade unions by their greed have caused our manufacturing jobs to be exported to China.

[DJ360 6,733]

Rubbish.

[philmayfield 6,193]

Good. At last you've stopped waffling. Succinct but wrong. 

[DJ360 6,733]

You have not answered a single point that I have made.  I'm sure that you know my points are valid and since you do not argue against them, I assume you concede them.

 

You have simply made the same statement in several different guises. However you wrap it up ..it is still unsustainable.  Blaming unions for the demise of UK industry is an appealing, but simplistic and ultimately incorrect statement.

 

The reality is that it is in the nature of capitalists to seek to cut costs and increase profits. So.. if UK industries etc., are allowed to move abroad for cheaper wages.. they will.  That is not the fault of the UK workforce..unless you expect them to work for nothing?

 

Was it the Unions who made Dyson ship his manufacturing abroad?

 

I repeat. The UK is not solely a business. It is a country which contains a population and a society. It CANNOT be left to the whim of Capitalists to decide how far it must sink.

[radfordred 6,284]

15 hours ago, DJ360 said:

We want to stop the legalisation of serious Tax Avoidance. (Which is what Brexit was REALLY about.)

 

Only one reason why right minded thinking people voted Brexit was immigration, it was a chance to take back control of our country.

[PeverilPeril 3,289]

This so called 'Trade Union Greed' has nothing to do with manufacturing going to China. It is simple market forces. The same has happened with most of Europe and other countries. I have witnessed lots of UK companies who started sourcing from China instead of using med/small UK manufacturers that didn't have unions! Trade Union greed? Laughable when compared with owners and Corporate greed 

[DJ360 6,733]

Wrong Red.  There was freedom of movement for workers in both directions. Millions of Brits worked in continental Europe and many EU workers came here and worked.

 

The EU never had any control over our borders and the immigration from outside the EU was nothing to do with the EU.

 

Since we left the EU, it has become more difficult to recruit EU based workers to our agriculture and care sectors. We are therefore now importing many more 'noticeable' workers from the far East.

A massive 'own goal' for the Xenophobes who thought Brexit would solve a problem which the EU did not cause.

[radfordred 6,284]

Own goal or not, that why 52% voted leave.

[philmayfield 6,193]

A country has to be run like an efficient business with due regard to all the all the people and their problems. We’ll never agree.

 

It brought in a lot of East European criminals. I don’t think we exported many of ours.

[DJ360 6,733]

Not while you insist on blaming the victim.

[philmayfield 6,193]

What victims are we talking about?

[DJ360 6,733]

3 minutes ago, philmayfield said:

It brought in a lot of East European criminals. I don’t think we exported many of ours.

 

It clearly brought in some.  So why did the Tories continually cut Police funding and Border Force funding?

 

The Tories had ten solid years to do something and they failed.  Possibly because they were too busy robbing us blind and attacking the benefits, health and welfare of native Brits?

[DJ360 6,733]

11 minutes ago, radfordred said:

Own goal or not, that why 52% voted leave.

I think it was a lot more nuanced than that.