DJ360 6,730 Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 I'll respond to stuff above later, but for now I'll just express my utter gobsmacked aghastness that some character from Reform ( Farage's racist loony party) just spoke on telly and describedvthe Conservative party as 'Socialists'. Seriously..whatever your Politics, if you agree that the Tories are 'Socialists'..you are on the wrong planet. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 Not to worry Col. When the Tories elect Farage as leader all will be well, rainbows will appear, unicorns will be in abundance and the sun will shine all day... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oztalgian 3,298 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 2/15/2024 at 9:58 PM, DJ360 said: Proper management of Privatised Utilities, where we have ended up with a situation where the management of them is entirely for the benefit of Shareholders and 'Fat Cats', is essential. What we have with Water is that various companies have not only failed to deliver, but are unable to fund their own improvement and so are demanding increased costs to customers for a substandard service while shareholders continue to 'rake it in'. You know this is 'bent' and you know that with the political will it can be stopped. same applies to Public Transport and many other similar rip offs. In 2002 all electricity users were paying ETSA (Electricity Trust of South Australia) directly. It was owned by the South Australian government. In 1998 the Liberal (Conservative) government was successful in passing a bill to privatise the public utility. The government retained the freehold ownership of the generation, transmission and distribution assets, with the investors acquiring long term leasehold interests in the assets. Also, the Government introduced a regime of industry regulation, calculated to ensure that the public interest was protected and that safety standards are maintained. It sold the retail side of the business to a private company and allowed other retailers to enter the market supposedly to increase competition and lower prices to the public. It very quickly closed our base load coal fired generation in a frantic bid to go solar and become green which has recently forced us to put in high voltage interconnectors costing billions to bring in power from other states. We now have the stupid system where margins have to be made at every step in the supply chain. Similar to the UK rail system. Wholesale electricity prices are set by AEMO (Australian Energy Market Operator) every 5 minutes based on bids from generators. The Australian Energy regulator determines the price cap for the Default Market Offer, the price that retailers can charge Has this privatisation worked? No, it bloody well has not, as we now have the highest electricity prices in Australia. Our water supply and distribution and sewage disposal is still wholly owned by the SA Government and we are in the process of negotiating the buy back of some train and bus operators, many of whom are in breach of their contractual service obligations. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 7 hours ago, DJ360 said: Reform ( Farage's racist loony party) Can you explain this please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oztalgian 3,298 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 26 minutes ago, letsavagoo said: Can you explain this please. Isn't it a re-birth of Screaming Lord Such's Monster Raving Loony Party? They stood in many constituencies between 1983 and 1997and failed to gain a seat. They scored 4,2% of the vote in Rotherham in 1994 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob.L 1,090 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 Looking at the media coverage of the two by-elections, you’d think that Reform Party Ltd had won. Instead, we’ve had both the managing director (Tice) and one of their employees (Habib) on virtually every channel, plus their other director (Farage) claiming he could lead the Tory party if they’d have him. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 4 hours ago, Oztalgian said: Isn't it a re-birth of Screaming Lord Such's Monster Raving Loony Party? They stood in many constituencies between 1983 and 1997and failed to gain a seat. They scored 4,2% of the vote in Rotherham in 1994 No and that doesn’t answer my question and don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 13 hours ago, DJ360 said: Reform ( Farage's racist loony party) Such inflammatory language without proof is to no ones credit and the disparaging reference to being 'loony' runs the risk of them not being taken seriously. Historically the German Socialist Party was much the same. They were ignored and dismissed - until it was too late. I disagree with most of what Farage says and what little I know of him I don't like, but I wouldn't ignore him. Looking at the Reform membership I can't see evidence of racism, a policy against illegal immigration and for balanced legal immigration is not the same thing at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 21 hours ago, Brew said: Such inflammatory language without proof is to no ones credit and the disparaging reference to being 'loony' runs the risk of them not being taken seriously. Yes. I accept your point and I withdraw the 'unsubstantiated' tag of 'racist', though I think it would be harder to argue against an accusation of xenophobia. Reform is a clearly Far Right ( Many of them really DO think that both Conservatives and Labour are 'Socialists') Party which has decided to jump on a Populist Bandwagon with fanciful solutions to problems. Some of those problems exist.. others are simply manufactured 'threats', to which of course only Reform has the solution. It's the oldest trick in the Political Extremist book, employed by everyone from Hitler to Trump and many others besides. I've long held, and I think expressed here, the view that people, including and maybe especially politicians are better judged on their actions than their utterances. I really can't be bothered getting into too much detail. It's all there online for anyone who wishes to look and points to a membership populated largely by assorted oddballs and misfits, united only by their obsession with Brexit and the mythology which underpins it. That said I do think it's worth noting Tice's admiration for US Far Right Republican Ron DeSantis, who is a major Trump supporter, favours the banning of books, and invokes political interference in what is taught in schools, especially if it comes from the progressive left. DeSantis is also a major opponent of 'Woke', which according to him is basically anyone who disagrees with his Far Right Conservative; world view. Tice has presented for Talk TV and GB News, which for me, says it all, since both are essentialy Right Wing propaganda shows and not worthy of the title 'News'. YMMV Tice has also had associations with Aaron Banks and is currently, since his divorce, in a relationship with Isabel Oakshott, whose political affiliations and journalistic style I will refrain from commenting on, lest I lapse back into 'inflammatory language'. Reform has moved on from its UKIP and Brexit Party origins to base itself in a broader 'populist' stance and much of what it advocates is certainly superficially appealing, until you look a little deeper..when it gets quite worrying. E.g., -A blanket statement that the BBC and the Civil Service are both 'bloated'. Evidence? -A claim that the NHS can be sorted out by re-arranging the funding deck chairs.. and yet almost in the next breath, a call for more NHS privatisation..... Really? A call to resume both Fracking and Coal Mining, justified by arguing that we are currently importing foreign coal to fire our power stations. Yep, probably true, but we only have ONE coal fired power station and it's closing this year... I could go on, but instead I'll just advise reading the Reform Manifesto, reading between the lines and remembering where this party came from and who it REALLY represents. It also amuses me that many of the actual and also perceived 'ills' of our current socio economic situation stem directly from the very same Brexit which underpins Reform UK's platform. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 On 2/17/2024 at 6:54 AM, letsavagoo said: Can you explain this please. See my response to Brew. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, DJ360 said: Reform has moved on from its UKIP and Brexit Party origins to base itself in a broader 'populist' stance and much of what it advocates is certainly superficially appealing, until you look a little deeper..when it gets quite worrying. E.g., Exactly my point. Poo pooing any extreme (left or right), organisation as not worthy of serious consideration is something we do at our peril. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 You offer an apology (we’ll almost) to your comment of racism but then accuse them of xenophobia. I think concern of the current scale of illegal immigration and patriotism hardly condemns them as xenophobic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Whilst it clearly cannot be reliably ascribed to individuals, there is strong evidence that Xenophobia was both an underlying message from the Leave campaign, and a motivator for many who voted Leave. https://www.gold.ac.uk/news/xenophobia-brexit/ https://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia It follows that since Reform is a re-badged Ukip/Brexit Party, then xenophobia will be rife in its ranks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Brew said: Exactly my point. Poo pooing any extreme (left or right), organisation as not worthy of serious consideration is something we do at our peril. Well yes, but I don't think I said they were not worth watching. I've been stressing all along that there are 'dark forces' gaining political ground, here and across the world. However, it's possible to be 'loony' and dangerous at the same time.. unless you think of course that Hitler and his pals were rational? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Wow Godwins law is till working I see. Use of the term 'loony' is you must admit somewhat light-hearted and even flippant. Was Herr H a lunatic? only in the popular perception of the man. A lunatic in my opinion could assume power by default, but to rise through the ranks... I doubt it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 28 minutes ago, Brew said: Wow Godwins law is till working I see. As is the invocation of same! 28 minutes ago, Brew said: Use of the term 'loony' is you must admit somewhat light-hearted and even flippant. But is it? Is it flippant when Tories go on about the 'loony left'? 28 minutes ago, Brew said: Was Herr H a lunatic? only in the popular perception of the man. A lunatic in my opinion could assume power by default, but to rise through the ranks... I doubt it... He certainly ended up detached from reality and though there might have been some sort of cold rationale behind his political ideology and rantings earlier on, he gained power through violence, by exploiting a political vacuum and by employing crude populism to appeal to a nation which had lost both a war and its national pride. Same old same old... simple solutions. It was 'all the fault of the elites' and especially the Jews..but he then set about creating an entire mythology around Aryanism, even employing archaeologists, geneticists, eugenicists and even occultists, to try to construct a new and entirely false 'creation myth' about Germany. Effective, for a while at least..but irrational. I see echoes of that stuff in the rantings of Trump, Farage etc., although to be fair Tice is a bit less 'obvious' about it. Eitherway, whilst Tice and co attack 'elites', in the form of The House of Lords, the 'Establishment' etc... it's plain to me that they are actually a faction within that same 'establishment', trying to replace the current 'top dogs' themselves. They are only using what they can snaffle of the 'popular' vote to achieve their ends. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, DJ360 said: But is it? Is it flippant when Tories go on about the 'loony left'? Well yes i.e. they're loony, not to be taken seriously. H was in my opinion a psychopath, whether that fits the description of loony I don't know. A psychopath on the other hand is as serious as a heart attack. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 2 hours ago, DJ360 said: Whilst it clearly cannot be reliably ascribed to individuals, there is strong evidence that Xenophobia was both an underlying message from the Leave campaign, and a motivator for many who voted Leave. https://www.gold.ac.uk/news/xenophobia-brexit/ https://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia It follows that since Reform is a re-badged Ukip/Brexit Party, then xenophobia will be rife in its ranks. I can only repeat my previous comment. Is concern over illegal immigration evidence of xenophobia? Because people aren’t happy at the many millions being spent on housing people invading this country, claiming asylum having fled ‘war torn France’ throwing away their passports and converting to Christianity, then they must be racist and or xenophobic. Really. Confusing common sense and genuine concern for xenophobia I think. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 49 minutes ago, letsavagoo said: I can only repeat my previous comment. Is concern over illegal immigration evidence of xenophobia? Clearly not however to pretend a dislike of foreigners did not play a part in Brexit is naïve. In many ways being an island race and somewhat insular we have always had a suspicion of foreigners, those of my generation grew up with it. It's an attitude formed when the map was pink and will linger for some time yet. Xenophobia is not new or exclusive to any particular section of society yet it seems the Reform party with its policy of one in, one out plays to that and seems to be gathering support. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
letsavagoo 963 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Of course there is an element of society that are racist, xenophobic or both and I won’t disagree that immigrants played a part in Brexit. However I will still maintain that the majority do not have a dislike of ‘foreigners’ per se but of individuals, mainly young men entering the country illegally without knowing their background or agenda especially as they are crossing from ‘safe’ France. I don’t think there would be too many objections to taking our fair share of migrants from Europe. Tory voters are disillusioned with the current shower but are equally unimpressed with Labour who don’t seem to have any answers and are not seen as a viable option. That’s where a 3rd party option will gain ground. I think it will damage the Tory’s more than Labour. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 13 hours ago, letsavagoo said: That’s where a 3rd party option will gain ground. I think it will damage the Tory’s more than Labour. I'm inclined to agree and recent surveys bear it out. The danger as I see it is the populist elements of their manifesto mask the weakness of the leadership in having any idea how to run picnic never mind a country.. Their economic policy is quite frankly laughable, though highly attractive to little Englanders and the "shurrup I'm watchin corro" brigade'. I suspect it would be quite ruinous for public spending, health, education etc. The introduction to the manifesto is full of.. what exactly? Hot air, tub thumping and pipe dreams that will appeal to the hard of thinking, but no sign of any suggestion how to achieve any of it. Labour I'm sure are going to win and wish washy Starmer will prove to be a bad PM - but not as bad as a Reform parliament. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oztalgian 3,298 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 On 2/15/2024 at 9:58 PM, DJ360 said: What we have with Water is that various companies have not only failed to deliver, but are unable to fund their own improvement and so are demanding increased costs to customers for a substandard service while shareholders continue to 'rake it in'. I see Severn Trent Water has been fined more than 2 million pounds for illegally discharging 240 million litres of raw sewage into the River Trent from the Strongford waste water treatment works near Stoke on Trent. This following the failure of two out of three screw pumps at the facility. Luckily it was at a time of high flows in the river otherwise it could have been an environmental disaster. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 On 2/18/2024 at 8:08 PM, Brew said: Well yes i.e. they're loony, not to be taken seriously. I think we're into semantics here. You appear to favour the 'silly' end of the definition spectrum. I've always considered it to be more closely aligned with its (UK) etymological root . 'Lunatic'. I don't think that the use of the term 'loony' necessarily implies that some person or group is not to be taken seriously, or seen as a potential threat, anymore than a genuine 'lunatic' can be so regarded. Of course in the political context there's always a slight distortion by association with the 'Official Monster Raving Loony Party', originated by the late 'Screaming Lord Such'. And of course the very purpose of the 'Raving Loony Party' is to project a not entirely misplaced satirical and ironic view of British politics. From Dictionary.com Quote adjective,loon·i·er, loon·i·est. lunatic; insane. extremely or senselessly foolish. noun,plural loon·ies. a lunatic. The US definition below doesn't even mention Lunatic, but relies on associations with the Loon bird. Quote Loony Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster Loony is an adjective that means foolish, eccentric, or loony. It comes from the noun loon, which is a type of bird. See synonyms, examples, etymology, and related words of loony. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DJ360 6,730 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 On 2/19/2024 at 9:36 AM, letsavagoo said: Tory voters are disillusioned with the current shower but are equally unimpressed with Labour who don’t seem to have any answers and are not seen as a viable option. That’s where a 3rd party option will gain ground. I think it will damage the Tory’s more than Labour. I'm certain that Reform will damage the Tories more than they'll damage Labour. Judging by recent by election results it looks to me as if many are so sick of the Tories that they will vote for anyone who will be able to replace them in Parliament and that, logically, can only be Labour.. whatever reservations people might have. That said I still think that Reform is simply jumping on the 'bandwagon' of popular discontent with 'The Boats', and a few other high profile issues, such as NHS, Housing etc. And yet, if you actually read their manifesto it is full of contradictions and illogicalities. It is also pretty heavy on stuff which most would interpret as 'anti-environmental', such as coal mining etc.,etc. It's not much of a stretch to see the influence of 'the usual suspects', in the form of the Oil lobby, the so called 'Institute of Economic Affairs' etc etc. The same broad far right gang who have been forced into a bit of a retreat within the Tories and so are now looking for influence outside. These are all self interested dangerous people who, in my view, represent a threat to our democracy and to the Institutions which have kept it functioning for hundreds of years. 'Beware of Greeks bearing gifts...' I do accept that Labour are having some difficulty selling a 'vision'..but it's important to remember that whilst for e.g., Reform, is gaining much attention for its electoral progress it is otherwise barely scrutinised in the 'Meedja', whereas every single policy statement from Labour is greeted with howls of 'How you gonna pay for that?, with added fantasies about Labour's alleged 'Tax and Spend' record. Meanwhile, 'the meedja' does at least highlight Sunak's gaffs and difficulties, but barely mentions the Tory borrowing record, much less asks where has all that borrowed money gone..given the parlous state of our public services, infrastructure, utilities, etc....etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,420 Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 40 minutes ago, DJ360 said: You appear to favour the 'silly' end of the definition spectrum As do most of the online dictionaries... Synonyms for loony: barmy mainly UK informal batty informal disapproving bonkers informal humorous cracked (MENTAL HEALTH) informal crackers UK informal dotty UK informal kooky mainly US informal loco mainly US slang loopy informal nutty (PERSON) informal wacky informal whacky mainly UK informal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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