Anything Political

[Brew 5,494]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Whilst it's well known that Ceausescu eventually resorted to oppression,

 I did say: the history is irrelevant compared to the geography.

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Yes, I've read it and it reads just like a typical journalistic denial. Not worth the paper etc...

 

That read just like a typical denial by a contrary reader determined to find fault...

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Why would the mostly left wing people opposed to the disproportionate platforming of Farage, the ERG, the IEA etc.. want to read the right wing Mail?

 

Whether they are left or right is moot but they clearly need information spoon fed, wrapped in cosy little shibboleths that align with their closed mindsets. 

To maintain the BBC does not do its best to remain as neutral as possible they are obviously hard of thinking and ever willing to force others to reflect their view of the world. The Mail is pre-eminent in its lack of differing perspective.

It's to the BBC's credit the left call it right wing, and right call it left.

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

But, it's increasingly looking as though alternative economic theory and practice is going to have to wait for some sort of revolution.

 

That puts you in agreement with Farage! 

He thinks of himself as a reactionary, a radical in the same mould as John Bright. 

He does not offer a theory of his own but rather, by his own admission, wants to disrupt the existing political order and the two-party system, starting with the Tories. He dismisses the accusation of being hard right as nonsense.

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Satire. We've already discussed it. I like him..so does OZ and no one else on here has complained.

 

 Two likes is hardly a validation and a lack of complaints is not proof of approval.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brew 5,494]

es, he probably wants to cultivate our friendship!

Grow n......

[Cliff Ton 10,574]

2 hours ago, Brew said:

It's to the BBC's credit the left call it right wing, and right call it left.

 

Absolutely.

 

It's what I've always said about 'bias'.  When people say something (eg BBC) is biased, what they're really saying is that it expresses an opinion which they don't agree with.

 

Nobody who buys the Daily Mail will ever say it's too right wing.  And no-one who buys The Guardian will ever say it's too Liberal.

[Oztalgian 3,412]

As a toolmaker who did his apprenticeship in one of the largest privately owned toolrooms in the UK. I get a bit pi$$ed off when the press keep saying in a derogative manner that Sir Keir Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.

 

For the idiots in the press and others out their who do not know what a toolmaker is:-

• Toolmakers do not make hammers, chisels, screwdrivers or spanners although their skills are used in the manufacturing processes for them.
• "Toolmakers make the things that make the things"
• Toolmakers make press tools and dies for metal components such as stamping, trimming and punching dies for the metal panels of cars, washing machines refrigerators and many other "white goods" and electrical items.
• Toolmakers make plastic injection mould tools for car interiors, almost all small appliances, electronic products, toys and many other items too numerous to mention.
• They also make diecasting dies, compression moulding and sintering dies along with extrusion dies.
• They use sophisticated CAD CAM software and state of the art machines
• I could go on and on but those that know, know.

I doubt you could go for an hour without using something that had involved a toolmaker.

[Oztalgian 3,412]

A vote for Labour

A vote for the Conservatives

 

A vote for the Greens

A vote for Reform

 

 

[PeverilPeril 3,311]

Oz -I'm also pizd off with Starmer going on about his dad being a toolmaker. Toolmaking is the very top echelon of skilled workers. The best are truly creative. He should take a look at his phone and ask himself - how did they make that? The tools to make phone parts and other devices are truly amazing. 

[Jill Sparrow 10,417]

Starmer, Snr's output during his working life was, arguably, more useful than his output during his private life, to wit Starmer, Jnr.  A friend of mine recently compared Starmer Jnr to an empty box. Nowt in it.

[philmayfield 6,312]

I’ve worked with a few toolmakers when we had  plastics moulding machines. I was always surprised impressed by their engineering knowledge and skilled craftsmanship.

[philmayfield 6,312]

4 minutes ago, Jill Sparrow said:

Starmer, Snr's output during his working life was, arguably, more useful than his output during his private life, to wit Starmer, Jnr.  A friend of mine recently compared Starmer Jnr to an empty box. Nowt in it.

Certainly not the most impressive tool in that empty box!

[DJ360 6,776]

19 hours ago, Brew said:

I did say: the history is irrelevant compared to the geography.

 

I know.  I disagree.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

That read just like a typical denial by a contrary reader determined to find fault...

 

If it was only me, you'd have a point. If it wasn't the case that the majority of senior BBC leaders, board members, political editors and journos etc, have been known conservatives since forever, you might have a point. The best I'll accept is that the BBC is socially liberal and politically conservative. It's not overtly biased..it's more subtle and I don't much care what any political party says..that's my take... Also please remember that I'm arguing that the BBC has it's policy of 'balance' wrong, very noticeably on programmes such as Question Time.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

That puts you in agreement with Farage! 

 

It absolutely does not!

You don't have to look far behind Farage's spiv talk and political sales babble, to see that his economic thinking is pure and extreme NeoLib. "Liz Truss was right, but she didn't go far enough..she should have cut public spending too"., when added to his opposition to environmental/carbon reduction policies, health funding and all the other stuff, he is clearly an extreme free marketeer, privatiser etc, undoubtedly on the side of, or 'in cahoots with', oil, gas, and probably, given his habits.. tobacco too.  Pure Tufton. He's assembled a whole cluster of much less significant but highly populist policies around things like immigration, traffic free zones, ULEZ, etc etc, and launched Culture Wars against both the Education system, and assorted minority groups. All designed to 'trigger' the hard of thinking and the prejudiced and the unjustifiably agrieved.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

He thinks of himself as a reactionary, a radical in the same mould as John Bright. 

 

 

Not sure either Farage or John Bright would much relish being called 'reactionary', especially re: current usage.

 

Radical is more accurate, or at least would be if Farage's populist utterances matched his 'hidden in plain sight' objectives.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

He does not offer a theory of his own but rather, by his own admission, wants to disrupt the existing political order and the two-party system, starting with the Tories.

 

For someone with 'No Theory', he has an awful lot of policies designed to implement it...

He may well wish to 'disrupt' the existing order. So did Hitler. The real question is ''to what end?" and whilst Farage clearly wants to move UK politics even further right, I'm looking for someone who can move it to the left and reverse the Neo Lib corruption of our Democracy which Farage's Neolib objectives can only further enable.

 

19 hours ago, Brew said:

He dismisses the accusation of being hard right as nonsense.

 

To echo the famous dismissal by Mandy Rice-Davies 'Well he would..wouldn't he?'

 

For someone who isn't 'hard right', he seems to have a magnetic attraction for all sorts of far right nutters, Homophobes, 'Culture Warriors', Racists, Islamophobes, extreme Nationalists, Europhobes, Militarists, Trumpists etc..etc...

He's currently back pedalling furiously and even claiming to have single handedly defeated the likes of the BNP, which is just pure fantasy.

[DJ360 6,776]

17 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

It's what I've always said about 'bias'.  When people say something (eg BBC) is biased, what they're really saying is that it expresses an opinion which they don't agree with.

 

That's not my point Kev,

The BBC is clearly not overtly biased, but I make two points:

 

1. It is undeniably the case that Senior management, Directors, Board Memebers, Journalists, Political Editors etc.. have long been predominantly drawn from conservative and establishment sources.

 

2. I believe that the BBC's notion of 'balance', gives unwarranted and disproportionate air time to not only minor political actors, but also to representatives of assorted politically motivated lobbying organisations, and 'think tanks' masquerading as 'experts'.

 

18 hours ago, Cliff Ton said:

Nobody who buys the Daily Mail will ever say it's too right wing.  And no-one who buys The Guardian will ever say it's too Liberal.

 

I don't disagree with that, except to point out that the Daily Mail is privately owned by the Rothermeres and that the Guardian is owned by a Trust, the artices of which are designed to ensure Editorial Independence.

[DJ360 6,776]

6 hours ago, Oztalgian said:

As a toolmaker who did his apprenticeship in one of the largest privately owned toolrooms in the UK. I get a bit pi$$ed off when the press keep saying in a derogative manner that Sir Keir Starmer's dad was a toolmaker.

 

 

I don't think they are being derogatory towards Toolmakers, though I'd agree they probably don't have much of a clue as to what a Toolmaker is.  They are trying to undermine Starmer's claim to having working class origins, often by stating that his Dad OWNED a toolmaking business. It's rather difficult to pin that one down, but it is easily demonstrated that Starmer has been solidly Labour all his life, with the caveat that his current version of Labour may not suit all.

 

 

3 hours ago, PeverilPeril said:

Oz -I'm also pizd off with Starmer going on about his dad being a toolmaker. Toolmaking is the very top echelon of skilled workers. The best are truly creative. He should take a look at his phone and ask himself - how did they make that? The tools to make phone parts and other devices are truly amazing. 

 

Again.. I just think he's trying to establish his working class credentials.. something they all like to do, including many Tories.

[Brew 5,494]

58 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

know.  I disagree.

The point was provocation. Why present history as an argument against a point that makes geography the focus. The missiles in 1962 and the proposed airbase are/were relevant and provocative because of where they were to be sited not because of the political history.

 

1 hour ago, DJ360 said:

BBC has it's policy of 'balance' wrong, very noticeably on programmes such as Question Time.

 

40 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

I believe that the BBC's notion of 'balance', gives unwarranted and disproportionate air time to not only minor political actors, but also to representatives of assorted politically motivated lobbying organisations, and 'think tanks' masquerading as 'experts'.

 

And I believe that is not only wrong it's repressive and unwarranted, do you have any facts or evidence in support?

The QT audience selection is based on 'age, gender, occupation, ethnicity, disability status, voting intention, voting history, and party membership'.

The panel selection is based on the topic of the day'

We have to accept there is not was there ever a truly unbiased news service and until AI take over the BBC does better than any other i can think of.

To point out the background of the management is a misdirection, should they try interfering they would not last long.

 

Highlights of a report from a team led by: Rasmus Kleis Nielsen Professor of Political Communication at the University of Oxford.  

 

The BBC is by far the most widely used source of news in the UK both online and offline, and it is one of the most highly trusted sources of news. It is also more widely used as a source of news than many of its peers among other public service media. It also reaches more than 400 million people globally with news every week.

The BBC is very widely used across the political spectrum. It is the most popular source of news among both Conservative and Labour voters, and among both Leave and Remain voters. Similarly, the UK’s independent communications regulator Ofcom has found that large majorities of audiences in the UK value public service media providers like the BBC very highly for providing trustworthy news programmes that help people understand what is going on in the world.

Though the BBC is slightly less trusted by people who identify with the political right than by people in the centre and on the left, it is still as trusted on the right as major conservative newspapers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brew 5,494]

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

Not sure either Farage or John Bright would much relish being called 'reactionary', especially re: current usage.

 

, a radical in the same mould as John Bright. 

 

I think the comma separates Bright from the reactionary bit and assigns him as a radical. though I could have worded it better. I have little patience and my fingers can't keep up with my thoughts.

Whether Farage likes it or not he is a reactionary:

'far-right, reactionist right. of or belonging to the political or intellectual right. noun. an extreme conservative; an opponent of progress or liberalism. synonyms: extreme right-winger, ultraconservative'.

 

3 hours ago, DJ360 said:

For someone who isn't 'hard right', he seems to have a magnetic attraction for all sorts of far right nutters, Homophobes, 'Culture Warriors', Racists, Islamophobes, extreme Nationalists, Europhobes, Militarists, Trumpists etc..etc...

He's currently back pedalling furiously and even claiming to have single handedly defeated the likes of the BNP, which is just pure fantasy.

 

Is that conjecture or can you support that?

By all means attack his policies and judge him on his actions but simply making stuff up on the basis of three yobs?

[DJ360 6,776]

On 6/30/2024 at 3:29 PM, Brew said:

Is that conjecture or can you support that?

 

Well Farage definitely claimed to have single handedly done more to defeat the Far Right than anyone else, and claimed to have wiped out the BNP. He said it on last weeks QT election special where he and the Green chap hd 30 minutes each. It will be all there, on the iPlayer.

 

As for the rest.  Quite apart from the three who Farage was forced to own up to, there's this lot:

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/full-list-every-controversial-reform-candidate/

 

18 there I think... and I don't think it's unreasonable to speculate there will be many more with similar views and backgrounds, who have the sense to keep their mouths shut and stick to the party line while they are trying to move on from their natural, racist, xenophobic, Islamophobic, Culture Warrior constituency and try to recruit more normal people with their Unicorns Mk2 'Contract'.

 

The chap around the corner who delivered Reform leaflets to me was unstinting in his criticism of all things immigration, all things EU and all things Islam when he bombarded me with his views on the way back from the polling station a couple of years ago. Most of his 'facts' were pure fantasy.

 

Though I don't use 'Twitter', or whatever it's now called.. I've seen enough stuff from there to demonstrate that there are vast numbers of Reform supporters not just shouting' Vote Reform', but backing up their campaign with all kinds of misinformation, lies and the like.

 

I do use Facebook, and it is riddled with 'Vote Reform' propaganda, often from anonymous posters with no profile or friends, but a lot from people with a very worrying mindset.

 

Only today.  One, claiming that a Vote for Starmer would enable Khan into power.

One claiming that Starmer refused to prosecute Savile, or Grooming Gangs.  Pure fantasy again and easily disproved, but such people aren't susceptible to truth or reason. That's why Farage aims his campaign precisely at them.

[Cliff Ton 10,574]

Driving along various roads in ‘upmarket’ West Bridgford it was interesting to see a large number of Labour posters in house windows.

 

Not one anywhere for Conservatives or Reform……and only a couple for Green or Lib Dem.

[DJ360 6,776]

Very few at all around here.  Just the one Reform one round the corner.

 

[DJ360 6,776]

1970s National Front poster.  Almost identical points to current Reform flyers.

 

[benjamin1945 16,308]

Well found Col............great comparison..........i'm not right or left wing......in fact nowadays i don't know what i am...........but funny thing is i agree with 4 out of 6 of the statements on the old National front poster.................

[DJ360 6,776]

It would be intrigueing to know which Ben..

 

My views:

 

- 'Stop Immigration' is very emotive but otherwise vague.  If it said 'manage immigration properly', I'd agree.

-'Reject Common Market' is more or less the same as 'Leave'.  We're still waiting for the Unicorns from that, so Reform's Unicorns MkII are really just another fantasy.

-'Restore Capital Punishment'.  No.

-'Make Britain Great again'  Meaningless drivel. In what way?  In whose opinion?  By what measure?

-'Scrap Overseas Aid'.  Again. vague and simplistic.  I'm sure we could have a debate about where our aid goes, but scrap it? No

'Rebuild our Armed Forces'  I'd probably agree, but it's not a simple aim....

 

..Which leads into why the NF picked those points for emphasis.  The answer is simple... they appeal to basic 'patriotism' idealised nostalgia for an age which never existed, a sense of 'betrayal' but without needing much explanation. Easy to swallow.

Not much there about:

-Fair taxation..

-Decent wages for all. 

-The right to representation in the workplace.

-Effective Healthcare.

-Effective support for the genuinely needy.

-Housing

-Transport

-Environment

etc.etc.etc.

- or any of the other many things which impact on peoples lives, rather than just their false memories of some idealised past.

[Jill Sparrow 10,417]

25 minutes ago, benjamin1945 said:

....in fact nowadays i don't know what i am......

I have a postal vote and I sent it last week.  After much thought. I decided that I didn't want to encourage any of the parties on it so I spoilt my ballot paper by writing my honest opinion across it.  I suspect many others will do likewise.

[DJ360 6,776]

Did you advise them on how they might get your vote in future?  Or did you just tell them you think they're 'all as bad'?

 

Eitherway, your ballot will just increase the number of 'spoiled' ballots recorded, but all that parties, if they care, might register, is some sort of generalised dissatisfaction with politics. They know that already.

[Jill Sparrow 10,417]

I stated what I would look for in a party I considered worth my vote.  That's for me to know and others to wonder about. It pains me to do it but I see no other option.

[Brew 5,494]

47 minutes ago, DJ360 said:

Eitherway, your ballot will just increase the number of 'spoiled' ballots recorded, but all that parties, if they care, might register, is some sort of generalised dissatisfaction with politics. They know that already.

 

Sounds a little like you're disparaging the idea, that protest is pointless. But a single vote will help defeat the Tories?

That a single spolied vote won't even register is true, but would it be the same should spoiled votes  be counted in the hundreds of thousands?

 

 

[DJ360 6,776]

Not at all. I did ask Jill if she told them how to get her vote and she basically answered that she did.

 

And I'm not disparaging the idea but simply pointing out that the parties already all know that people are dissatisfied with politics.  Farage is making that idea a central plank of his pitch, but with no real answers, just a wishlist.

 

We all face the same dilemma. If we spoil our vote, there's a chance that we will affect he election outcome.  Which socio economic group, which 'leaning', left or right, is more likely to spoil its vote? What effect does that have?