DJ360

What Jobs Have We Done?

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You mention interviews Col.

I went for an interview to Beeston Boiler Co in the early 70's, was for a night shift maintenance elec. I walked into the interview office and low and behold one of my old bosses was sat in on the interview, he'd been one of the shift elec engineers at Clifton Colliery.

Interview went well and was offered a job.

But after the interview Tommy, the old boss I knew, pulled me to one side and told me to never "pull myself down at interviews" He went on to say, never lie about what you can and cannot do, but never pull yourself down like you did here today, he gave me some pointer to use next time around.

I remembered what he'd told me and used his pointers to get me through many interviews I've had over the years. All but one interview, got me the job, the one I didn't get was with a German company, they weren't willing to pay me the same as I was getting at that moment.

The last job interview I took, I took over the interview, got the job and know the Engineer was happy with his decision to hire me.

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I find them interesting Col,as i,until now knew nothing of the careers structure.. maybe if I had availed of help from the likes of yourself- I wouldn't be on the scrap heap at 54!!- keep posting,Ian.

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#94. A university degree in the "Beatles" ? you seriously have to be kidding !

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We could major in goblinisation, bus routes,PC examination, and the weeding out of tosspots and treehuggers.

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#94 If you honestly believe that there are no dodgy degree courses then its time to open your eyes and ears.

Governments have lowered the bar with regards to education, first there was the stupid labour idea that one sort of schooling fits all, so get rid of the grammar schools, that's the main route to a good education denied to the working class.

Then when that was seen to be failing lower the bar for exam passes, just so the politicians go claim more pupils were doing better.

Universities should be for the very brightest only. There then needs to be put in place proper training scheme's for the rest with help for small business to employ these people and give them the skills they need to get through life. This could be paid for by chopping 50% of the so called public sector and making the rest work for their money for a change.

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Here in Ireland entrance and monitoring of term performance is logged...only trouble is Dad,who's paying for it all ,ain't informed!!

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#94. A university degree in the "Beatles" ? you seriously have to be kidding !

You pulled that out of context and completely misrepresented or misread what I wrote.

Col

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#94 If you honestly believe that there are no dodgy degree courses then its time to open your eyes and ears.

That's not what I said. But too many people misunderstand the purpose of Higher Education and therefore misunderstand the value of much of what is studied. Any degree course, as I explained above, is primarily a test of intellectual capacity. In that sense, most the value lies in the process. I once attended a lecture at the British Cave Research Association Annual Conference at Sheffield Uni. The subject was Cave Sedimentology. The bloke delivering the lecture had basically defined a new science. He had set out to understand how mud, silt and other sediments move, and have moved over time, under the influence of water etc.,in order to understand the history of cave systems. What we see now are mostly caves as they were left after the last ice age. He added to understanding of how the caves arrived in the condition we now find them. Practical value is clearly limited, although the sedimentology and hydrology of cave systems do have an impact on land drainage/water supply etc., in limestone areas. Mostly though. The guy started by asking things nobody had asked before, and set out to find answers. That is Higher Education.

Governments have lowered the bar with regards to education, first there was the stupid labour idea that one sort of schooling fits all, so get rid of the grammar schools, that's the main route to a good education denied to the working class.

Opinion. I don't knock Grammar schools. I went to a very good one myself. But you are completely ignoring the fact that the Comprehensive system allowed all students access to the O/level/CSE system and later the GCSE system, which they were previously almost completely denied.

Then when that was seen to be failing lower the bar for exam passes, just so the politicians go claim more pupils were doing better.

Can you produce any evidence for that?

There then needs to be put in place proper training scheme's for the rest with help for small business to employ these people and give them the skills they need to get through life.

I have consistently stated that this country has woefully inadequate systems of vocational training and that the current lies about the number of apprenticeships created are of no help. You are preaching to the convertewd on that one. And remember I was intimately involved with youth training and apprenticeship systems for decades.

This could be paid for by chopping 50% of the so called public sector and making the rest work for their money for a change.

That's a silly argument on so many counts that I can't be bothered responding to it.

Universities should be for the very brightest only.

And who decides what that means?

Col

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But too many people misunderstand the purpose of Higher Education and therefore misunderstand the value of much of what is studied. Any degree course, as I explained above, is primarily a test of intellectual capacity. In that sense, most the value lies in the process.

DJ360, just to pull the above from your last post. I agree that completing a degree course says a lot about a graduate in terms of intellect, self-management, resilience and determination etc. The graduate will have no doubt developed their skills and rightly feel a sense of great achievement. However, as has been pointed out, if the course subject does not lend itself to decent job opportunities, then the usefulness of certain courses such as the worst below must be questionable.

The following is an extraction from a recent article in the Sunday Times..

At the worst-performing university, nearly half of all graduates are not in professional posts six months after gaining degrees. When told the results of the lowest-ranked universities, some experts doubted they could survive.

STN_UNI-SUBJECT_20_1178664a.jpg

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#110. DJ360.

Out of cotext or not, a Mickey Mouse degree in the Beatles ? You are really trying to pull my ****** !

This can only be defended by someone with a vested interest in FE.

If anyone is going to university then at least go & study something worthwhile. But the Beatles ? You can't be serious !

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Catfan. Please go back and read what I wrote. When you understand it, maybe we can discuss it.

Col

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No.

A MM degree in my opinion is an insult to any genuine hard working student who has undertook years of further education & sacrifice to gain a proper degree, by HARD WORK.

A Beatles degree won't wash with me.

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TBI #112. That stuff is interesting. Taken in isolation though, it masks a couple of factors and is likely to be used by those who would do away with non technical HE for all the wrong reasons.

1. There is always a lag between the changing popularity of courses and the availability of opportunities post grad. Certain courses become 'flavour of the month', or even 'trendy', on an almost annual basis and for no particular discernible reason. The current dearth of properly independent and qualified Career Guidance is not helping to moderate this effect as it did in the past.

2. Much more importantly though, most of the subject areas quoted as having the lowest rate of 'Professional position after 6 months' are not in the least surprising because traditionally such courses are used as entry qualifications to post grad professional qualifications. This could involve teachers, Clinical Psychologists Same happened with me. My degree was politics which in itself gave me not much by way of occupatioal skills, but which got me onto the relevant post grad diploma to qualify me for my eventual graduate level job. It took more than 6 months.

Another example is art and design, where many graduates take longer to find professional positions, but nevertheless get there in the end. Without this knowledge idiots like Michael Gove jump to the erroneous conclusion that 'Arts' degrees are useless, whereas I have already quoted stats relating to the value of UK Arts/Media and Culture which make him look like the pea brain he undoubtedly is.

Col

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No.

A MM degree in my opinion is an insult to any genuine hard working student who has undertook years of further education & sacrifice to gain a proper degree, by HARD WORK.

A Beatles degree won't wash with me.

You still haven't read what I wrote have you? :)

Clue. I quite specifically DID NOT SAY a 'Beatles Degree'

Col

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#116 DJ360

Yes, like most things, fashions change. Broadly though, those courses in the 'worst' category above will remain there. In contrast, the 'best' courses are those which are traditionally more highly regarded and in demand by prospective employers.

With regard to degrees leading to post-graduate qualifications, I would make two points. Firstly, I have seen graduates go on to further study, simply because they have been unable to find a suitable job. Just one example, a Physics student worked for me. He graduated with a First, continued working whilst he fruitlessly looked for a job. So he decided he may as well do a Masters, which he completed, still no job. Then followed by a PhD. The last time I saw him he was unhappily selling insurance.

Secondly, in the world of work, especially with the huge costs of study in recent times, making the right choice of course is paramount. As I'm sure you'll know, the vast majority of students do not intend to continue with post-graduate study.

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Absolutely typical, working in the public sector, ignoring anything that does not suit your argument.

What is the point of careers advice when there is no where to go to follow that advice except to uni.

You say you have decades of experience with apprenticeships I'd like to know where there haven't been proper apprenticeships for many years now. They started to go out in the 70s.

As to getting rid of half of the public sector I am entirely serious, half of them have never done a proper days work in their entire life. I have worked within the private/public sector interface for nearly 40 years, first on the tools and then as a contracts manager for a large national company and have seen the amazing low standards they can set. They manage to throw tax payers money away with gay abandon and it has to stop

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TB! #116.

I think we're slightly at crossed purposes here. And I also suspect that the 6 month timeframe is quite deliberately and cynically applied by the survey creators to make a somewhat (excuse the pun) academic point.

I would agree that in a general sense for employment directly after a first degree, the 'top' categories in your quoted table are correct. They also have usually the advantage that for e.g., Physics or Maths are two strong examples of degrees which are pretty much equally useful for entry to either scientific/technical positions, or other professions such as Law, Actuarial/Accountancy roles and many others. And since these roles usually involve doing the professional training on the job, I've little doubt that the surveyors would designate employed trainees in these occupational areas as having a 'professional role'.

All of which makes me wonder quite why your Physicist followed the route he did. That would IME be the route into HE lecturing, or research. Given his failure to secure grad level employent either in Physics, or using his degree for entry to something else, I would be tempted to seriously question either other aspects of his employability, or aspects of his job search/interview/CV writing skills etc. Comes back to guidance.

As for the 'worse' degree choices. Firstly I'd say that the survey is also potentially distorted by not giving relative numbers of students in each category. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that some people study 'Animal Sciences'. The real question is how many the market is likely to absorb, given also that some will enter professions open to those with 'any degree'. Also comes back to guidance.

Finally, I can only repeat that for example Psychology has many potential career options. I had psychology grads working alongside me in the Careers Service and Psychology figured in my own more general degree, but I've already pointed out that in general Careers Advisers followed a 1 year post grad Diploma Course. (As also typically did Social Workers, Youth Workers, Occupational Therapists, Probation Officers,Trading Standards, Environmental Health etc., etc., etc. Thus even though student numbers were deliberately closely matched to likely opportunities and few who wanted to failed to access their chosen profession (assuming they passed muster), ALL would fail the '6 month' test.

Training for clinical psychologists typically takes several years beyond the 'First Degree' stage.

I can't agree with your generalisation that student's don't typically plan for post grad study. If they are properly advised, many do. What has reduced is the number doing Masters and Ph.Ds in their subject, because apart possibly from lecturing or the rare funded research jobs, this is expensive and often pointless.

Any student who is properly advised, and who listens, should conclude that having a degree in psychology won't make them a clinical psychologist, or that doing pharmacological science will not necessarily make them a Pharmacist, or that doing a degree in Law won't make them a Solicitor or Barrister. Further training is definitely required and needs planning for.

That was my job, although HE was not my specialism. Like any good GP, I knew enough to see the issues and mostly sort things, but if necessary I could consult, or refer to a specialist.

Thanks for your input.

Col

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Absolutely typical, working in the public sector, ignoring anything that does not suit your argument.

Where did that come from? Why are you getting so angry? I'm not.. and I'm the one taking the flak. :) 1. I'm not working in any sector. I'm retired. 2. I'm ignoring nothing. I've countered every argument. And please don't accuse someone who has spent years on twelve hour shifts shovelling shit into and out of furnaces of 'never doing a day's work'.

What is the point of careers advice when there is no where to go to follow that advice except to uni.

You would have a point if that were true but it simply is not the case. At least whilst I was working, training, apprenticeships, full and part time college courses plus basic jobs with 'on the job' training all existed. I've already stated that the situation was never satisfactory and I haven't even got to the worse bit yet, but why do you insist on 'shooting the messenger'? I did not create Govt. policy. I simply tried to do my own job within the constraints set by Govt. I am very satisfied with, and proud of, the work I did to help people find their way in a confusing world.

YMMV

You say you have decades of experience with apprenticeships I'd like to know where there haven't been proper apprenticeships for many years now. They started to go out in the 70s.

They reduced in number. They also changed in character. The old 'time serving..following a tradesman about with a mashcan and going out for chips' was done away with. It was replaced with NVQ qualifications which were based on demonstrating competence and therefore not timebound. In the early stages it was apparent to all of us that there was a lack of 'underpinning knowledge' to complement the 'competence'. Over time, things improved. But, at no stage did Apprenticeships completely disappear.

I was personally responsible in the 80s and 90s for monitoring the progress, and mentoring of dozens of apprentices each year in various sections of Pilkington St Helens and associated companies such as Fibreglass. Add to that hundreds of Admin/secretarial and Clerical trainees all going to college regularly on 'day release' to study for BTEC National Cert., Diploma etc.. and progressing to ONC/HNC and Degree level.

Where do you think all of your current young brickies, plumbers etc., have come from? I'm not claiming things were perfect.. but they were definitely not 'Uni or nothing'/Black v White' as you suggest.

As to getting rid of half of the public sector I am entirely serious, half of them have never done a proper days work in their entire life. I have worked within the private/public sector interface for nearly 40 years, first on the tools and then as a contracts manager for a large national company and have seen the amazing low standards they can set. They manage to throw tax payers money away with gay abandon and it has to stop

You're going to firstly have to define precisely what you mean by ''public sector'. I mean.. all of the utilities, and much else has already been privatised. What's left that offends you so much?

Are you advocating a 50% reduction in public spending? The present lot have only succeeded in causing a lot of pain whilst increasing public spending.

You simply cannot state 'half of them have never done a proper day's work in their entire life' without some evidence.

Give me something to work with and we can have a decent discussion.

Col

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Don't argue with DJ360 he knows what he is talking about, anyway most of us on this site are retired and don't give a sh.t :bluespin04:

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Like the FLY Tompa, is that me going round in circles ? I sometimes feel like it !

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FLY........It's me going round circles, I'm just confused about all that's been written on the above posts, thought I had ended up on the jokes forum. bowdown

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