loppylugs 8,429 Posted October 26, 2017 Report Share Posted October 26, 2017 Eyeup Mick. Hope you are feeling a bit better. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewBasfordlad 3,599 Posted November 7, 2017 Report Share Posted November 7, 2017 Made my day to day... The look on a landlords face when I arrived at one of his properties as he was fitting a second hand boiler for one of his tenants. It got even better when he'd stopped spluttering and I introduced my two companions one man from the ......Gas Safe Register....and one man from the gas dept of the HSE. Better still when I was able to point these two in the direction of a house 3 doors up where I suspected the same thing had happened some time ago Confirmed. It's took some time, nearly 6 years to catch this bugger but today GOTCHA big time. Turns out the authorities had already written to him to warn him off, but he had ignored them, as the man from the HSE said this will cost him £20K plus so that's his annual Caribbean holiday up the spout....... 4 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 How does it work over there these days NBL? In Canada, to run your own business. In my case electrical. You had to get further education and write a Master electrician exam. They wouldn't let you get a permit to do a job unless a 'master' signed off on it. Got mine back in 77. On any job you had to have two inspections. Rough in and finishing. If an insurance company found out there was un-inspected work on a property they could refuse to pay out if there was a fire or other problem. The problem tended to be that there were a lot of 'handymen' around doing work at considerably lower prices with no permit. They were a pain in the rear to us licensed contractors. Once in a while one would get caught but not very often. Needless to say these guys cut into our profits. Naturally they could do it cheaper without a permit or inspections. In many cases not according to code either. We came across some 'orrible stuff. One guy had wrapped the fuses with tinfoil and told the lady she now had a hundred amp service!!! I think they did nail him. I tended to stick with new service and panel installations because the amateurs didn't dare tackle them. You had to work with the city to disconnect the meter etc. When I apprenticed over there I don't think I ever saw an inspector. Working for EMEB was different because they sent the inspectors out. Just curious. Edited to add: Glad you caught the so and so! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 It has long been a bone of contention. Legally there is nothing in law to say you cannot do a gas or electrical installation yourself - BUT and it's a big but, you to must be able to prove you are a 'competent person'. Competence under the law usually means you have the relevant training and qualifications. In reality only a lunatic would carry out such work without the necessary paperwork. I personally would not do anything with a gas installation and even as a qualified electrician (17th Ed) I only do the most minor repairs, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 I'm about like you now Brew. I more or less hung up my license a while ago. I do odd jobs at the church like changing a Fluo' ballast or exit light, but I'm not into crawling around in attics anymore. I never bothered to get a Georgia license anyway. Just not worth the trouble for the minor stuff I do. I would not do any new wiring for anybody else now. Hard to believe my electrician days are formally over. In Canada a handyman could get a 'homeowners permit' to do work on his own house. That satisfied insurance requirements because the work was inspected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewBasfordlad 3,599 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 Brew, yes there is a law against doing any gas work, installation, repairs or maintenance the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 and as amended there after refer and as a landlord you should know that. You should also know that it is your responsibility to check that the people you use are in fact fully competent and in the case of a landlord a criminal offence not to do so. You have to be able to prove you are competent and in law there is only one way to do this and that is to be Gas Safe registered. So even if you can and you are not registered you are breaking the law, ask the pretend engineer from Wales who is serving 6 months for a second offence. Loppy nowadays it is quite complex my 5 year apprenticeship with EMGAS counts for nothing, when you had finished that you were considered capable of doing any work on any gas installation but not now. Now ever 5 years you have to pay for and sit a series of exam's to prove competence in each type of work you wish to under take. It starts with something called basic gas safety, pass this exam and you can fit gas pipe up to 35mm but no bigger, to install larger pipe you need another exam in the industrial section and yet a further one if you want to work of grid on tanked gas. After all this you then need to pass appliance exams with separate exams for boilers, space heating, kitchen appliances, separate exam for range cookers, water heaters, warm air heaters the list is pretty much endless including a complete section on industrial kitchens. Looking at my ID I am qualified in building regulations, combustion analysis, kitchen appliances, fires and wall heaters, boilers, pipework, range cookers, water heaters and finally non vented cylinders. Even with all that I cannot work in industrial kitchens, any pipe work larger than 35mm or any tanked gas pipework or appliances. And now there is the same with electrical contractors though to a lesser extend. Now days all electrical work must comply with Building Regulations Part P, by law all home owners or landlords must comply to this or they are committing a criminal offence. There are two ways to comply, one notify the local Building Authority before work starts and pay them for the inspections, two employ a person who is on the register of a government approved scheme. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philmayfield 6,139 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 Last time I had a problem with a combi the registered fitter who installed it couldn’t sort the fault so I had to get the part myself. When I called him to say I’d sourced it he asked if I could fit it myself as I seemed to know more about it than he did! I did get him to sign it off just for peace of mind! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 Phew! I'm so far behind I'd never catch up. Couldn't even change a light bulb on Noah's ark. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 NB as a landlord I can assure you I'm fully aware of my responsibilites and take them very seriously. The rules are ambigious to say the least: 3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so. (2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work. Copied from the regs and to split hairs this only applies to person who are carrying out the work for reward. I can see your hackles rise and I agree with you but legally thats how things are. I did say it was a bone of contention in both the gas and electrical trade. The regs do go on to say the HSE have a say in who's competent but again it only applies to those who do it for reward (money or payment in kind). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewBasfordlad 3,599 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 No my hackles won't rise I get used to people quoting the original book all the time that's why I typed 'as amended' I bet it even mentions the Council for Registered Gas Installers now long gone as far as gas registration is concerned. Approved Code of Practice and Guidance Paragraph 45 new version Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so........Therefore, do-it-yourself installers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of the work done............ It goes on a bit but is not relevant. The only way to prove competence in a court of law is to be Gas Safe registered end off. Dependent on what Phil did even in his own home he could have broken the law, certainly if anything went wrong he would not be insured. Things move on so quickly and in my opinion to damned quietly. The HSE seem to group everything under 'a duty of care' banner and sometimes we only find out about it when something goes wrong. Working in rented property every day I like to think we are up to date but only two years ago we found out that rented properties are now subject to a LRA every so often with the advice from HSE to keep the paper work to prove it had been done, it's been around for some time but we knew nothing about it. They have now said it should be done every time a property has remained empty for a week or more. Another one that cause's confusion is the difference between England and Scotland, a prime example being carbon monoxide detectors, compulsory in Scotland in all rented properties, in England only where solid fuel is burnt including fire places. We do however have a statutory requirement for a full coverage of smoke detectors and that these need to be check at the start of every new tenancy. My advice Brew get a new version of approved code of practice and guidance. This one not only deals with the new regulations but gives guidance on how to interpret them and how the law courts look at the ACPOs. Mind you having said that they can change their minds on an annual basis, some times twice a year. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 8, 2017 Report Share Posted November 8, 2017 So much more complicated than my day. You finished your five year apprenticeship you were an electrician. Most guys probably continued working in the areas they were most familiar, i.e. House wiring, industrial wiring etc.. I remember when I went to Canada that they had brought in 'approved electrician'. ' Electrician' qualifications I had no idea how that worked. In Canada we had one written and one practical exam at the tech college. It was important because wire sizes, voltages, 120/240 three wire. Different code rules etc.. I took a six week night school course at tech to get on top of things. I was glad I did. After that you can work in whatever area you choose. When I had my business I did a lot of work for swimming pool contractors. Lots of earthing for metal ladders etc.. Underwater lighting, various kinds of pumps and heaters. I liked it. Inspections were strict, and it kept the riff raff out. Most people putting in a pool were not down to their last dollar so it was good all round. Even got got to have a swim once in a while. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 I have copies of the gas, electrical, building regs, coshh sheets and more HSE guides than you can shake a stick at. Why do I have these things? the famous HSE 'duty of care'. when it comes to complying with the law I'm as near bomb proof as is possible. None mention Corgi, nor for matter does it mention Gas Safe. If theres an updated version I've not recieved it yet. Everything you say above I agree with NB but as you point out it's a code of practice, a guide in order to comply but it's not actually a statutory regulation. It also states under the section marked 'Guidance' that following the guide is not compulsory. It should be but it's not, that's where it shoots itself in the foot. As I said it's ambigous and open to arguament in its interpretation. Perhaps it would be better if instead of 'competent person' it said 'suitably qualified' or 'member of an approved organisation'. Now that you've raised my awareness I'm going look and see if my files are up to date Edit: Just read this in my HSE file. 51 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bubblewrap 3,815 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Waking up each morning fit and healthy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NewBasfordlad 3,599 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 Well Brew if you cannot accept expert advice not a lot I can do, though as a member of IGEM all my other clients seem happy to do so. But if I am not right and you are then there have been an awful lot of people incorrectly found guilty of a crime they did not commit! Including home owners, friends etc, perhaps they need further legal advice. These case are not well reported except locally which is a shame as the punishment are becoming more severe, the latest wheeze with regards to private landlords is for the judge to request an estimate of the total value of their property and base his fines on that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
loppylugs 8,429 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 More work for the lawyers I guess. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 As I said NB i fully accept what you say, I agree with you, it's just the advice given in the codes are not without large grey areas and there are those who have 'gotten off' on such technicalities. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
plantfit 7,597 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 What makes me happy? other peoples happyness Rog 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bubblewrap 3,815 Posted November 9, 2017 Report Share Posted November 9, 2017 3 hours ago, loppylugs said: More work for the lawyers I guess. Where there's a will there's a relative 3 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
catfan 14,793 Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 I love to see well behaved polite children who were obviously well brought up. I often comment to parents of such children & they seem to appreciate the compliment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FLY2 10,108 Posted November 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 I like to see parents who keep their kid on reins, and not let them run amok on the pavement, or in shops. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
plantfit 7,597 Posted November 11, 2017 Report Share Posted November 11, 2017 Mrs P likes to think she keeps me on reins so I don't run amok Rog 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sarahjay 9 Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 I like seeing birds and other wildlife in my garden. I miss them during the dark months. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 One of my many 'oops' moments in life was not realising that hard paving all my garden would reduce the number of avian visitors. My feeders rarely need a top up now days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
plantfit 7,597 Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 Put some small trees and grasses in planters Brew taller grasses attract plenty of birds Rog 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brew 5,419 Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 Hmm might try that, I miss seeing the birds feeding and bathing outside my french windows Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.